Will Panerai pull itself from the deep abyss?

[htc8p]

i just came back from hk. nobody was wearing panerai anymore even their shops were empty. the only ones i saw wearing it were the "novice fashion".

where as everybody was wearing rolex and it was pretty solid.

[supra8903]

Richmont is showing a mid term Annual Report showing sales up by 2%, not Panerai but Richmont as a whole.

https://www.richemont.com/images/inv...ed48kq56aw.pdf

Their 2014 annual report shows a 8.5% sales increase in 2013, to 2014. - Fine Watchmaking Manson

I don't see heavy volume being moved in IWC, JLC, VC or Lange... so i'm taking it as Panerai still going strong... maybe not as well as previous years, but growth in a business is still a good thing. (their operating profit is what needs some help)

[RUpanerai]

Interesting topic. I actually posted about this on Paneristi in August of 13.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/35339...+bubble+burst-

[power_reserve72]

god I hope Pam prices move down a bit so I can grab a 233 "dot" soon!!


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[Fleetlord]

Panerai is ICE COLD

I base this on the informed opinion of various dealers, Panerai collectors, and market vibes.

It's a good time to buy, but don't expect any appreciation...It's a dead fish.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Panerai is ICE COLD

I base this on the informed opinion of various dealers, Panerai collectors, and market vibes.

It's a good time to buy, but don't expect any appreciation...It's a dead fish.

Considering that you spend about 90% of your time here shilling for Rolex and bashing other brands, I'm sure people will give your opinions and research on Panerai the due consideration they deserve.

[nick c]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Panerai is ICE COLD

I base this on the informed opinion of various dealers, Panerai collectors, and market vibes.

It's a good time to buy, but don't expect any appreciation...It's a dead fish.

I think you are wrong boutiques opening all over not closing

[HL65]

Originally Posted by improviz

Considering that you spend about 90% of your time here shilling for Rolex and bashing other brands, I'm sure people will give your opinions and research on Panerai the due consideration they deserve.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by HL65

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

Considering that you spend about 90% of your time here shilling for Rolex and bashing other brands, I'm sure people will give your opinions and research on Panerai the due consideration they deserve.

huh

It's a ROLEX forum...I almost always choose ROLEX over anything else...

But, I have a Panerai....so I've done my part...have you?

Not my fault they are ICE COLD in most markets. Sorry

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

huh

It's a ROLEX forum...I almost always choose ROLEX over anything else...

Yes, we've noticed. Almost?

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

But, I have a Panerai....so I've done my part...have you?

Yes, see my sig. Here's a photo of mine, got one of yours?

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Not my fault they are ICE COLD in most markets. Sorry

Not my fault you are prone to making ill-informed statements about brands other than Rolex with no numbers to back them up.

[improviz]

@Fleetlord, also wanted to follow up: basically if you look at your posting history, the bulk of the posts you've made are of the sort "One should NEVER purchase (insert brand here) over ROLEX" or "It is NEVER a good idea to trade from (insert brand here) to ROLEX".

Why should I never consider, for example, a Panerai over a Rolex? And if this is in fact the case and you do in fact have a Panerai, then why do you in fact have one, given that this would seem to involve you ignoring your own words of wisdom? By this I mean that here you would seemingly have chosen to purchase a Panerai instead of a Rolex. Can you please explain why you did as you often (i.e., once a week or so) tell others not to do?

[jschmidtdmd]

My AD here in denver, claims that they are not selling at all.

Again, just one source, but seems to be a common theme. When you continue to re-release special editions over and over, people get mad IMO.

JPS

[nick c]

Originally Posted by improviz

Yes, we've noticed. Almost?



Yes, see my sig. Here's a photo of mine, got one of yours?




Not my fault you are prone to making ill-informed statements about brands other than Rolex with no numbers to back them up.

Nicely said and love your 005

[Ravager135]

Originally Posted by jschmidtdmd

My AD here in denver, claims that they are not selling at all.

Again, just one source, but seems to be a common theme. When you continue to re-release special editions over and over, people get mad IMO.

JPS

I've seen a couple ADs here in NJ pick up Panerai as Omega has moved out to their own boutique stores. The Panerai selections I have seen have been very small; mostly 47mm models, no special editions. Certainly not well rounded collections. I agree completely with John, I have liked a lot of what Panerai has done but I think the special editions and regular lines need to merge, simplify, and cease being redundant.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by nick c

Nicely said and love your 005

Thanks and thanks!

[Gregsubc]

I'm new here but this initial post has absolutely no basis at all...why would you even put something up like this?

[srvrf]

Without true sales data, this is all speculative. But in the spirit of discussion, I will add that my thoughts on Panerai. I love my 121 (and will say to Gus that the El Primero is one of "their" movements that looks good through the sapphire 😉) and it should be a long term keeper. I've thought about adding the ceramic 590, but at about $15k (For sale here on TRF) I'm into AP/Rolex territory. To me the premium for their in-house movements is too high. And as a casual Paneristi, I'm baffled by their numbering system, and the countless models that seem nearly identical. There is an AD an hour away from me but I have never seen a Panerai in the wild here other than my own.

If true, maybe people are moving away from larger watches.


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[codecow]

My 372 is ice cold sitting in the bank safe. I will break it out for the next SF Panerai event.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

Yes, we've noticed. Almost?



Yes, see my sig. Here's a photo of mine, got one of yours?

Not my fault you are prone to making ill-informed statements about brands other than Rolex with no numbers to back them up.

Ok. Great. Nice picture of a Pam 005.

Here is the picture of MY Pam 000 that you requested.



Now, to address your concerns....

If anyone were to ask me if they should buy a Panerai, I would tell them to go for it...just don't pay too much because their resale isn't what it used to be..

If someone were to ask me if they should buy a Panerai OR a ROLEX, I would tell them to always CHOOSE ROLEX over Panerai.

If someone wanted to trade a ROLEX into a Panerai, I would tell them not to.

If someone wanted to trade a Panerai into a Rolex, I would advise them to..

Choosing Panerai is fine. But if you are in an "either or situation", clearly go with ROLEX.

I say the same about Iwc all the time.....

I have one of those too....



I chose to buy an Iwc....but I didn't choose to buy one OVER a Rolex or trade a Rolex for one... I could do this with Omega, Breitling...etc...but I think you get the point..

My reasons for this is that Rolex is a stronger brand, with more timeless design, versatility of usage, better service and service options, and stronger resale...

Clearly, I am not the only one on ROLEXFORUMS who feels this way. Why you singled me out for a mean spirited attack is beyond me, but if you have nothing else to do, I guess I can live with it...

Hope this helped....

[Fleetlord]

Improviz:

To address your other concern....None of us have access to quantitative data suggesting Panerai sales are up, stagnant, or down.

We can make inferences based upon market observations and dealer input.

The resale market on most Panerai models is SOFT. Many of them have lost value and are much slower movers than in the past.

TRF dealers I have spoken to have mentioned this and have said that Panerai doesn't move like it used to and they aren't as eager to take them in trade as opposed to Rolex...

AD's I've visited have the same pieces in their cases quarter over quarter....this was not the case 5-8yrs ago. They sold as soon as they came in...

Hence, while I think Panerai is ICE COLD...I wouldn't put them in an abyss just yet...but they are surely heading in that direction...

Again, I am not the only one to observe this....I am not the OP and others here have mentioned soft Panerai business in their markets...Why you are singling me out for mean spirited attacks is again, beyond me....

If you cannot see that Panerai has lost steam and cooled as a brand when compared to its market presence 5-8 yrs ago.....then I really don't know what to say...

[improviz]

@Fleetlord, I'll address your posts one by one.

The first one is a fine example of hair-splitting to justify obvious "do as I say, not as I do" behavior on your part. You constantly tell people "NEVER" choose either of these brands over Rolex, and yet you own both of these brands. I would simply point out that there are Rolexes in the same price range as both of the models you pictured, and yet you very obviously chose to purchase the Pam and IWC "over" these Rolexes, whether you wish to admit it or not, simply by virtue of the fact that you purchased these models in lieu of equivalently-priced Rolexes. "NEVER" doesn't mean "unless you like it better", it means NEVER, full stop.

As to resale: if the main consideration in the purchase of a watch is how much its ownership is going to cost you, then I would submit that by this standard you should NEVER own a Rolex instead of a $20 Casio, simply because it costs so much more to own. Here, as there, this is a specious argument. These are not investments, they are jewelry, and quite frankly most of the folks who purchase them are not going to be put out by losing a few hundred more dollars on resale, if they ever sell them in the first place. If losing money is the be-all, end-all of purchasing decisions, then I'd advise you to steer clear of luxury goods full stop.

Stronger brand? I suppose that if brand recognition (by others it would seem) is at the top of your list exclusive of other factors, then I guess Rolex is the brand for you (except when it isn't), but IMO the world would be a very boring place if everyone thought like that, thankfully there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate these "weaker brands", whatever that means...including you, as it turns out.

What bothers me about you is that you seem to troll pretty much all of the forums in here and constantly dispense this emphatic "NEVER NEVER NO NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER EVER" stuff in each and every thread of this sort to come up, so I must say that to find out you own two of the brands you constantly assail is to me quite amusing and satisfying. Thanks for bringing this to light, you might want to consider adding an asterisk to the "NEVER" from now on.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by improviz

@Fleetlord, I'll address your posts one by one.

The first one is a fine example of hair-splitting to justify obvious "do as I say, not as I do" behavior on your part. You constantly tell people "NEVER" choose either of these brands over Rolex, and yet you own both of these brands. I would simply point out that there are Rolexes in the same price range as both of the models you pictured, and yet you very obviously chose to purchase the Pam and IWC "over" these Rolexes, whether you wish to admit it or not, simply by virtue of the fact that you purchased these models in lieu of equivalently-priced Rolexes. "NEVER" doesn't mean "unless you like it better", it means NEVER, full stop.

As to resale: if the main consideration in the purchase of a watch is how much its ownership is going to cost you, then I would submit that by this standard you should NEVER own a Rolex instead of a $20 Casio, simply because it costs so much more to own. Here, as there, this is a specious argument. These are not investments, they are jewelry, and quite frankly most of the folks who purchase them are not going to be put out by losing a few hundred more dollars on resale, if they ever sell them in the first place. If losing money is the be-all, end-all of purchasing decisions, then I'd advise you to steer clear of luxury goods full stop.

Stronger brand? I suppose that if brand recognition (by others it would seem) is at the top of your list exclusive of other factors, then I guess Rolex is the brand for you (except when it isn't), but IMO the world would be a very boring place if everyone thought like that, thankfully there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate these "weaker brands", whatever that means...including you, as it turns out.

What bothers me about you is that you seem to troll pretty much all of the forums in here and constantly dispense this emphatic "NEVER NEVER NO NEVER AND I MEAN NEVER EVER" stuff in each and every thread of this sort to come up, so I must say that to find out you own two of the brands you constantly assail is to me quite amusing and satisfying. Thanks for bringing this to light, you might want to consider adding an asterisk to the "NEVER" from now on.

Ok. Awesome bro'. Feel better? PM me if you have any more issues you would like to sort out...

Thread is off topic...apologies to the OP.


Getting back on the rails....

I think Panerai needs to get back to it's roots like Tag is doing.

Too many 5 figure exotic case watches that all look the same. They have clear quality and service issues that need to be corrected.

Can they be resurrected? Sure why not.

[gmlomas]

I have JLC, OP, IWC, Omega, Rolex...so not biased.

I love my 328, OP is just a unique piece period. However, are they as hot as 5 years ago? No, is that normal yes. I mean, neither is Hublot, nor IWC, nor most brands. Let's face it novelty faces off.

Also, they cannot be Rolex and probably don't want to. The amount of watches Rolex makes is just 10 times that of OP. I think you cannot compare the both of them. Some could argue that Rolex going with "huge" DJ or Hublot-looking YMII is also the way to sell more by selling your essence and OP Is not doing that.

Long story short, all but brands can be criticized or judged, but I would rather spend my time wearing them. Even though if I was OP, I would stop making some many damn models.

[tudorwatches]

Originally Posted by zacharyjames

where is the proof of the "abyss?"

Boutiques are everywhere, their marketing is going strong.

I love the threads with absolutely no factual support whatsoever, and which border on slander, designed to drum up controversy.

Originally Posted by improviz

Considering that you spend about 90% of your time here shilling for Rolex and bashing other brands, I'm sure people will give your opinions and research on Panerai the due consideration they deserve.

Amen..

[HL65]

Personally I don't really care what anyone thinks about Panerai or any other brand for that matter as long as they make cool time pieces I enjoy wearing like this 217 from 2006...Out

[improviz]

A-mayun mah frayunds! Ayund kin ah get a "hallelujah" for Ken's 217??

Originally Posted by HL65

Personally I don't really care what anyone thinks about Panerai or any other brand for that matter as long as they make cool time pieces I enjoy wearing like this 217 from 2006...Out

[HL65]

Originally Posted by improviz

A-mayun mah frayunds! Ayund kin ah get a "hallelujah" for Ken's 217??

[jenniferjanef]

Ever since I bought my last piece, 372, I stop buying panerai. The only Panerai I am still using is the 372. Sold 305, 000 183 and 328.. I personally think the 372 is too good! 372 is all the panerai I need.... Ok.. maybe I need a 364 too.. But still, I no long digging for the new realeases like I used to. Sad when I think about it. I sitll love panerai especially the 372 to bits!




James

[themaninblack]

I don't know if Panerai sales are down. I have two Radiomir watches and like them greatly but I'm not in the market for any more. Those Panerai boutiques give me the creeps. The boutique on Nathan Road and in IFC always look empty but I was in Singapore recently and that one seemed busy enough. Truth is Panerai carries a bit of a stigma and they make too many models. It's almost like it's the watch that guys you don't like or who know nothing about watches often wear. Now that may be total bull and a ridiculous generalisation but it does kind of seem that way.