Rolex Tiffany Archive Papers

[330ci]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

Think about how many millions of watches Rolex has produced since they ended the relationship. Without proper paperwork from Tiffany's, there is no authenticity that the watch and dial were always one.



100%

Rolex has all their archives, if they wanted they could create a service that lets people know their watches manufacture date, serial number of original movement, dial configuration, what dealer it was shipped too, etc. Just more profitable keeping it a secret and charging $10,000 to service important watches

[harry in montreal]

I think there are lots of fake Tiffany scripts added to these dials. I would never buy one at a premium. I think it’s naive to think shady deals would not switch dials when they have a chance to make a buck. I think that those on here that ignore these issues own one of these watches, and this impacts your position. The position one takes is often driven by where one sits.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by Wigwag

Rolex USA hold records of what serial numbers were supplied by Tiffany.

Source?

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

I think there are lots of fake Tiffany scripts added to these dials. I would never buy one at a premium. I think it’s naive to think shady deals would not switch dials when they have a chance to make a buck. I think that those on here that ignore these issues own one of these watches, and this impacts your position. The position one takes is often driven by where one sits.

Harry, I've warned you before about making good points here, it confuses the children!

[ronricks]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

I think there are lots of fake Tiffany scripts added to these dials. I would never buy one at a premium. I think it’s naive to think shady deals would not switch dials when they have a chance to make a buck. I think that those on here that ignore these issues own one of these watches, and this impacts your position. The position one takes is often driven by where one sits.

I remember a post on here years ago that a specific AD in the 80's and 90's was stamping a ton of 'Tiffany' dials at their store then marking them up. Wish I had bookmarked that post.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

I think there are lots of fake Tiffany scripts added to these dials. I would never buy one at a premium. I think it’s naive to think shady deals would not switch dials when they have a chance to make a buck. I think that those on here that ignore these issues own one of these watches, and this impacts your position. The position one takes is often driven by where one sits.

I have no vested interest in this discussion, but it defies logic. Rolex won’t service a watch with unauthorized modifications. If you sent in a Bamford with authentic modified parts, they’d require you to replace just about everything. A Tiffany stamping would fall under that category if Rolex themselves didn’t authorize it. If it left an authorized service center with that dial, Rolex respects it as authentic, why shouldn’t anyone else?

Like you said “the position is often driven by where one sits.” You seem to have a pretty definite opinion on the matter, but discrediting these watches entirely when surely some without papers are authentic seems naive as well. While I agree that 99% of these that show up are likely fake, I wouldn’t rule out one with a recent service history from Rolex themselves. If it wasn’t authorized by them, why would they let it out, and if they were unsure why wouldn’t they err on the side of caution.

[TimeLord2]

I hesitate to weigh in on this conversation. I have a Tiffany stamp dial that is authentic as I have no reason to doubt my father who purchased it new from Tiffany in the early 70's. Still alive BTW, so I may ask him to place teh request as he is the original owner but we have same name. That said, no papers. I don't plan on selling it, for sentimental reasons, but I have looked into these avenues as well. @Harry_in_Montreal brings up the pertinent points to authenticity. BTW, I had it authenticated early this year at Rolex. What the other guy failed to mention about this service at Rolex is that they do not make any mention of the Tiffany stamp on the dial in the estimate papers. I asked them why this was, and they said they don't describe the dial. It will go to Rolex for servicing at the beginning of next year as they have already provided an estimate for service (that was what the authentication was for. only.). They will not replace the dial or hands but require that I switch out the bezel insert which is all brown and apparently meant for the full gold version 1675/8, it should have the half and half version. Nothing was said about the dial other than there is a small scratch they were unable to show me. I was just going to use LAWW for esrvice with the intent on doing some case work, but at the end of the day they don't have a parts account and were unable to source a bezel ring, which needs replacement as the insert is just glued in at this point. I abused the hell out of this watch in my younger days… I personally have had it since 1987, and it has been service twice since I have owned it. They didn't mention the Tiffany script either.

Oh, and on another note. I did contact Tiffany after seeing a similar auction that said the watch was authenticated by Tiffany. This one: https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...9-details.aspx). Tiffany & Co did not respond for several months, and only responded a little over a month ago. Profuse apologies followed. I included information on my watch and the auction link above. I have not heard from them since. I think the person who did respond was probably a new customer service rep and had no idea what I was asking. It did get bumped up to Purchasehistory@tiffany.com but like I said it has been over a month and nothing… If I ever did want to sell it I certainly would not do so through TRF or Hodinkee, or whatever, and would go straight to Phillip's or Sotheby's as that is where you would realize the highest return, even without papers.

For the time being I just want it serviced so I can wear it. Cheers all! Be gentle, I know for you true collectors even real papers and a photo of the purchase would probably not be enough given other threads I have seen.… Fact is, I have found my comments a thread-killer, usually, which is unfortunate as there is always something to learn.

[cardiel]

I have frequented this site for a number of years and seen many discussions of Tiffany branded watches..........but what I have never seen ( here ) is a set of stamped papers from Tiffany..............and that includes the for sale section.....why is that?

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by cardiel

I have frequented this site for a number of years and seen many discussions of Tiffany branded watches..........but what I have never seen ( here ) is a set of stamped papers from Tiffany..............and that includes the for sale section.....why is that?

This one gave me a laugh. Listed in 2015 for $14K with no offers and bumped in January 2020 to $50K and sold within a day. Papers included. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ht=gmt+tiffany
Tics all the boxes though. Period correct, original everything and unpolished.

[EEpro]

Epic 5 year bump.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

This one gave me a laugh. Listed in 2015 for $14K with no offers and bumped in January 2020 to $50K and sold within a day. Papers included. https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ht=gmt+tiffany
Tics all the boxes though. Period correct, original everything and unpolished.

People are nuts

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by 330ci

People are nuts

Can't argue with that. One little line of text…

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by 330ci

I have no vested interest in this discussion, but it defies logic. Rolex won’t service a watch with unauthorized modifications. If you sent in a Bamford with authentic modified parts, they’d require you to replace just about everything. A Tiffany stamping would fall under that category if Rolex themselves didn’t authorize it. If it left an authorized service center with that dial, Rolex respects it as authentic, why shouldn’t anyone else?

Like you said “the position is often driven by where one sits.” You seem to have a pretty definite opinion on the matter, but discrediting these watches entirely when surely some without papers are authentic seems naive as well. While I agree that 99% of these that show up are likely fake, I wouldn’t rule out one with a recent service history from Rolex themselves. If it wasn’t authorized by them, why would they let it out, and if they were unsure why wouldn’t they err on the side of caution.

Tiffany was once an authorized dealer and was authorized to co-sign the dial. That fact was part of the reason they lost their franchise. When Rolex gets an original dial with a co-sign they make zero effort to determine authenticity, what would be their motivation?

Old authorized co-signs are no problem for Rolex as long as it's an original Rolex dial; For anyone to try to convince others that the fact that Rolex will happily service a watch with a fake Tiffany co-sign is somehow proof the dial is a Tiffany borders on wilful misinformation.

I truly do not want to offend you bit it's irresponsible to allow people to believe your thesis when it simply isn't true. It's possible 95% of the "Tiffany" dials extant are fake.It's the most common fake on Rolex. If Tiffany provides this service I think a certificate should be required to even call one of these things a Tiffany. Call an RSC and try to get them to confirm your thesis; that Rolex confirms Tiffany dials prior to service.

[GoingPlaces]

So far I have yet to see actual evidence that Rolex authenticates and verifies the T stamp. All we have is speculation and assumptions.

[harry in montreal]

What is working against the Tiffany dial is that it is just a simple tiny black script. If it was a substantial mark; a hallmark engraved into the caseback....or even a color ink logo like my Winn Dixie, it would be easier to assess.

I do find the premium to be surprising. Even if a watch had papers, I am very much jaded by the quantity of fake docs online. An heirloom watch with strong provenance and paperwork is the only way to be sure.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Tiffany was once an authorized dealer and was authorized to co-sign the dial. That fact was part of the reason they lost their franchise. When Rolex gets an original dial with a co-sign they make zero effort to determine authenticity, what would be their motivation?

Old authorized co-signs are no problem for Rolex as long as it's an original Rolex dial; For anyone to try to convince others that the fact that Rolex will happily service a watch with a fake Tiffany co-sign is somehow proof the dial is a Tiffany borders on wilful misinformation.

I truly do not want to offend you bit it's irresponsible to allow people to believe your thesis when it simply isn't true. It's possible 95% of the "Tiffany" dials extant are fake.It's the most common fake on Rolex. If Tiffany provides this service I think a certificate should be required to even call one of these things a Tiffany. Call an RSC and try to get them to confirm your thesis; that Rolex confirms Tiffany dials prior to service.

The key word here being “authorized”. Under your own assumptions a fake texted Tiffany was never authorized by Rolex and therefor would be corrected at service.

The only argument you have is that “Rolex doesn’t know which are true Tiffany dials themselves so they let them all slide.”
That seems far more unreasonable than Rolex knows what serial numbers were sold through Tiffany retailers so they can discern for themselves whether a dial merits replacing or not.

[Filipão]

Mine field...

[Kingface66]

So, to summarize.....not one member here knows for sure how Rolex regards a Tiffany stamped watch when one comes to them.

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by 330ci

The key word here being “authorized”. Under your own assumptions a fake texted Tiffany was never authorized by Rolex and therefor would be corrected at service.

The only argument you have is that “Rolex doesn’t know which are true Tiffany dials themselves so they let them all slide.”
That seems far more unreasonable than Rolex knows what serial numbers were sold through Tiffany retailers so they can discern for themselves whether a dial merits replacing or not.

Rolex did not add the co-sign; how could they possible know if it was correct or not? Their only concern is that it is an original Rolex dial. You say Rolex knows where each watch went but apparently you aren't familiar with how much dealer trading of inventory goes on. Rolex could tell you where a watch was shipped but not where it was sold. LOL, if they could do that there would be no gray market.

I know you're desperate to defend your purchase of one of these dials but it's beginning to feel like the desperation of the guys who bought/sold 40,000 dollar blueberry GMT inserts. :)

Make that call to RSC, I'm sure they will be happy to help you.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by TimeLord2

I did contact Tiffany after seeing a similar auction that said the watch was authenticated by Tiffany. This one: https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/...9-details.aspx). Tiffany & Co did not respond for several months, and only responded a little over a month ago. Profuse apologies followed. I included information on my watch and the auction link above. I have not heard from them since.

Well, this is why you don't see these Tiffany archive papers around, except in these few rare cases. I guess you need the power of a major auction house to make it happen.

If Tiffany ever got it together to make this a real service, it could clear up a lot of debate about these Tiffany-stamped Rolexes. Perhaps it's a newer service that's now on hiatus because of the pandemic.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, this is why you don't see these Tiffany archive papers around, except in these few rare cases. I guess you need the power of a major auction house to make it happen.

If Tiffany ever got it together to make this a real service, it could clear up a lot of debate about these Tiffany-stamped Rolexes. Perhaps it's a newer service that's now on hiatus because of the pandemic.

Apparently the cost for accessing the archives is 1K, and even then it's not a sales receipt from Tiffany. I have never personally purchased a watch for myself. I have two watches, a quartz Seiko diver I wear all the time (From 1981 or so) that I received from my Grandparents, and my Rolex I got from my Dad (approx. 1987). 1K is better spent servicing rather than chasing windmills. It was only after joining this forum (2 years ago) that the Tiffany stamp was called out as a "special" feature. Would be nice to confirm authenticity for my kids should they ever want to sell, but at the same time, lucky for me, I think the watch is beautiful and would never part with it, if at all possible. The conversation continues but IMHO there will never be resolution to satisfy die-hard collectors. On another note, from my limited research Rolex was imprinting the dials with the Tiffany logo too.

[uncleluck]

Imagine a Tiffany Blueberry GMT thread...

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by uncleluck

Imagine a Tiffany Blueberry GMT thread...

The horror!

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

So, to summarize.....not one member here knows for sure how Rolex regards a Tiffany stamped watch when one comes to them.

I don't know if anyone has ever been rejected because of the stamp on the dial. The associate at RSC who took my watch for the "authentication" mentioned the script and said it was "special" but that was it. 4 weeks later after they sent it to their Pennsylvania facility, which supposedly specializes in vintage, it came back with an estimate for service. They only said the Bezel ring and insert had to be replaced with the service. The bezel ring because it is nonfunctional and will not hold an insert, and the insert because it is all brown not the half and half a 1675/3 should have. No mention was made of the stamp and they will not add a description on their estimate. This from my personal experience. They also said the case was worn
the case was dented
the hands are worn
the dial is scratched
the hands are scratched
the bracelet needs to be replaced
etc…

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

So, to summarize.....not one member here knows for sure how Rolex regards a Tiffany stamped watch when one comes to them.

Correct. Assumptions only based on what some members think Rolex would allow or now allow.


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[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by uncleluck

Imagine a Tiffany Blueberry GMT thread...

That would be a disaster. Talk about confusing.


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[Wigwag]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Rolex did not add the co-sign; how could they possible know if it was correct or not? Their only concern is that it is an original Rolex dial. You say Rolex knows where each watch went but apparently you aren't familiar with how much dealer trading of inventory goes on. Rolex could tell you where a watch was shipped but not where it was sold. LOL, if they could do that there would be no gray market.

I know you're desperate to defend your purchase of one of these dials but it's beginning to feel like the desperation of the guys who bought/sold 40,000 dollar blueberry GMT inserts. :)

Make that call to RSC, I'm sure they will be happy to help you.

Rolex may not know who added the co-sign, but they know whether or not a watch was supplied by Tiffany.

I would be quite comfortable if I was 330ci or anyone else who owns a Tiffany branded watch that has been serviced by RSC with that dial in situ - the dial therefore is genuine.

As pointed out by by 330ci, there is no way on earth any RSC would service a modified watch.

Why don't you phone RSC if you're so confident? I'm sure they would be delighted to confirm that they would only service a Tiffany branded watch if they were certain of it's origins

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, this is why you don't see these Tiffany archive papers around, except in these few rare cases. I guess you need the power of a major auction house to make it happen.

If Tiffany ever got it together to make this a real service, it could clear up a lot of debate about these Tiffany-stamped Rolexes. Perhaps it's a newer service that's now on hiatus because of the pandemic.

Sounds like a great idea assuming Tiffany has the information to sell but Rolex and Tiffany parted ways 30 years ago. A company like Tiffany will keep good records of clients who places special orders and have made to measure work done but why would they feel compelled to retain extensive records of products they merely resold?

I'm sure some records have survived but in all likelihood a long way from being extensive and complete list of all the Rolex watches they sold from the late 50's -early 90's

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I wonder if Domino's Pizza or Winn-Dixie supermarkets offers a similar archive service

Domino's does. And they'll get it to you in 30 minutes or less. Every Monday you can order two archives for $10.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Tiffany was once an authorized dealer and was authorized to co-sign the dial. That fact was part of the reason they lost their franchise.

Are you claiming Rolex cancelled Tiffany’s AD status partly due to them imprinting the dials?


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