Electric Harley Davidson....

[Etschell]

Wow. I was shocked to see how bad sales are. Guess they have to do something as motorcycle industry is in a huge down trend.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/harley-da...113001093.html

Still if I am owning a motorbike it would never be electric. Especially not a Harley.

[SDRider]

Ducati is reporting 8 straight years of positive growth.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/201...traight-years/

Ducati celebrated its 90th Anniversary in 2016, and the Italian motorcycle manufacturer ended the year in record-breaking style. That year, Ducati sold 55,451 motorcycles worldwide, and claimed its seventh-straight year of positive sales growth.

With the release of multiple new models for 2017, including new additions in what can be considered a subsidiary of Ducati, the Scrambler brand, Ducati continued this growth trend

Ducati sold 55,871 motorcycles in 2017. That’s only a 0.75 percent increase over 2016, but the number helped Ducati achieve an eighth-straight year of record growth.

Much attribution went to the new models released in 2017, including the Multistrada 950, the returning SuperSport, the Superleggera and the Scrambler Desert Sled and Cafe Racer.

“Two-thousand seventeen was another great year for Ducati, both commercially and racing-wise,” says Claudio Domenicali, CEO of Ducati Motor Holding. “We battled it out for the MotoGP title all the way to the last race, won six GPs and brought home the best results since 2009.

“Continuous renewal of the product range and a strong focus on creating motorcycles of the utmost quality has allowed us to keep on growing despite the problems affecting the world market. I extend heartfelt thanks to all the men and women whose passion makes it possible, every day, to build these extraordinary bikes. Their work has made Ducati an emblem of Italian excellence.”

Granted, they don't sell anywhere near the number of motorcycles Harley Davidson or the Japanese brands sell. Also, some of their growth is no doubt due to advancing production and sales into Asian and Indian markets.

Part of Harley's problem is the biker gang image. That and they don't really make anything other than cruisers. Big, heavy cruisers... which is not a great choice for a new rider. How are you going to attract young/new riders into the brand if you offer no entry level motorcycles?

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by SDRider

Ducati is reporting 8 straight years of positive growth.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/201...traight-years/



Granted, they don't sell anywhere near the number of motorcycles Harley Davidson or the Japanese brands sell. Also, some of their growth is no doubt due to advancing production and sales into Asian and Indian markets.

Part of Harley's problem is the biker gang image. That and they don't really make anything other than cruisers. Big, heavy cruisers... which is not a great choice for a new rider. How are you going to attract young/new riders into the brand if you offer no entry level motorcycles?

Harley has entry level bikes. Sportsters. And the biker gang image thing is a relic of the 70's. 1%ers are no longer significant anymore. Harley's issue is the baby boomer generation who were loyal Harley riders have aged into their 60s and 70s and are no longer riding. The younger generation has no interest in these bikes especially at their 15-30K price tags for what is essentially a warm weather toy. And yes, the company is in trouble financially due to lagging sales. Closing their plant in Kansas city and going to just the York, Pa factory.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Harley has entry level bikes. Sportsters. And the biker gang image thing is a relic of the 70's. 1%ers are no longer significant anymore. Harley's issue is the baby boomer generation who were loyal Harley riders have aged into their 60s and 70s and are no longer riding. The younger generation has no interest in these bikes especially at their 15-30K price tags for what is essentially a warm weather toy. And yes, the company is in trouble financially due to lagging sales. Closing their plant in Kansas city and going to just the York, Pa factory.

You can say that but if you look at the image many Harley riders project, it is that image. In all fairness, some sportbike riders project a biker gang image too. Lawlessness is an image that still goes with motorcycling and it is one we, riders as a whole, need to shake really.

Also, I wouldn't really consider a bike that weighs 545lbs a good entry level bike and that is the smallest, lightest bike Harley offers. All the Japanese manufacturers have smaller, lighter standard motorcycles in the 300cc range that make excellent beginner motorcycles. Bikes that weigh around 350lbs. They are inexpensive, responsive, easy to ride and easy to learn on.

[SDRider]

As a whole, US motorcycle sales have been lagging for a few years now.

U.S. Motorcycle Sales Totals

April 22, 2016 (Various Sources) – The 2015 U.S. motorcycle sale numbers are in, compiled by the Motorcycle Industry Council and others.

Sales are up again (slightly) and 2015 marks the 5th consecutive year of slight increases in U.S. motorcycle sales. The 2015 sales total for street bikes, dual-sport and off-road motorcycles is 500,678.

That is up about 3.45% from the 483,526 reported in 2014 (2014 was up about 3.7% from the 465,783 total reported in 2013).

Those numbers are nothing like the boom years of 2004-2005, when nearly 1.1 million motorcycles were reported sold in the U.S.A.

Here’s our updated graphic showing U.S. motorcycle sales from 1992 to 2015.

These numbers are based on best available knowledge at the time and should not be considered exact, but rather as an overall general indication of motorcycle sales trends in the U.S.A.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by SDRider

You can say that but if you look at the image many Harley riders project, it is that image. In all fairness, some sportbike riders project a biker gang image too. Lawlessness is an image that still goes with motorcycling and it is one we, riders as a whole, need to shake really.

Also, I wouldn't really consider a bike that weighs 545lbs a good entry level bike and that is the smallest, lightest bike Harley offers. All the Japanese manufacturers have smaller, lighter standard motorcycles in the 300cc range that make excellent beginner motorcycles. Bikes that weigh around 350lbs. They are inexpensive, responsive, easy to ride and easy to learn on.

INEXPENSIVE is the key word. Harley's are expensive and many cost as much or more as a brand new car. And it is essentially a recreational toy. Many in their 20's, 30's simply don't have the disposable income for a Harley. The hardcore Harley rider generation is dwindling.

[CDNWatchNut]

Harley is in decline because they're trying to sell old school bikes that perform poorly at outrageous prices. I think its too late for them, the Japanese and Europeans are so far ahead with technology that its laughable.

[gliderpilot]

Originally Posted by CDNWatchNut

Harley is in decline because they're trying to sell old school bikes that perform poorly at outrageous prices. I think its too late for them, the Japanese and Europeans are so far ahead with technology that its laughable.

Agree. Riding my BMW R1200RT vs riding a Harley is like switching to a different century. Can't see the younger generation appreciating the "old-school" technology in this case...

[Chewbacca]

i think people just woke up one day and realized HD wasn't a brand that fits today's lifestyle.

the money is in Adventure/dual sports, sub-250cc class, urban mobility sub 150cc with storage, and all must be low maintenance. all of which HD isn't.

and their core buyers are dying off flooding the used market with low mileage HD's, and no reason to buy new when used HD's are a steal right now.

there's gonna be many case studies on this brand's slow death. but, if i were the CEO or on the BOD, i'd explore a sale to Tata or a Chinese firm where you can easily access cash for R&D, and get into a 3b person market building outside the US.

see what Volvo Cars did as an example compared to stubborn SAAB.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

i think people just woke up one day and realized HD wasn't a brand that fits today's lifestyle.

the money is in Adventure/dual sports, sub-250cc class, urban mobility sub 150cc with storage, and all must be low maintenance. all of which HD isn't.

and their core buyers are dying off flooding the used market with low mileage HD's, and no reason to buy new when used HD's are a steal right now.

there's gonna be many case studies on this brand's slow death. but, if i were the CEO or on the BOD, i'd explore a sale to Tata or a Chinese firm where you can easily access cash for R&D, and get into a 3b person market building outside the US.

see what Volvo Cars did as an example compared to stubborn SAAB.

They sell HD in India now. It’s a luxury machine that is priced out of the common market. Most people are riding 250’s with a banana seat that can accomodate the missus and their groceries. A 500 is a big bike there.

I doubt HD can compete with the existing small bike brands.

[dba]

Originally Posted by CDNWatchNut

Harley is in decline because they're trying to sell old school bikes that perform poorly at outrageous prices. I think its too late for them, the Japanese and Europeans are so far ahead with technology that its laughable.

Exactly. Harley started in 1903 with a V-Twin. In 1923, BMW came along with their Boxer-Twin. In the ensuing 115 years, BMW has introduced into their line; a single, a twin, an inline four and an inline six as well as still selling Boxer-Twins.

Harley has a V-Twin.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by dba

Exactly. Harley started in 1903 with a V-Twin. In 1923, BMW came along with their Boxer-Twin. In the ensuing 115 years, BMW has introduced into their line; a single, a twin, an inline four and an inline six as well as still selling Boxer-Twins.

Harley has a V-Twin.

I think there is still a nitch market for Harley. The brand will not go away entirely but they need to downsize to produce the number of bikes they will sell in a given year. BMW and Ducati are practically boutique manufacturers of motorcycles compared to the Big Four Japanese manufacturers but both are doing very well, developing bikes that the market wants.

[Rolex addict]

Harley has based it's brand and marketing on the 70's biker gang look and that very distinctive sound which they tried to patent at one time (but failed). Just like old muscle cars, these bikes are dinosaurs. The younger generations don't want them. It's too damn hard to text and ride one of those cruise ship anchors.

[Rolex addict]

Originally Posted by SDRider

I think there is still a nitch market for Harley. The brand will not go away entirely but they need to downsize to produce the number of bikes they will sell in a given year. BMW and Ducati are practically boutique manufacturers of motorcycles compared to the Big Four Japanese manufacturers but both are doing very well, developing bikes that the market wants.

I know a lot of retired guys that have BMW touring bikes. Incredible machines, but it's hard to beat the Japanese bikes. They offer the all day comfort and great reliability for a fraction of the cost. All of my motorcycles have been Honda except for my GNCC days. KTM was the only thing that could handle the abuse I dished out. GasGas was close, but you couldn't get parts for the dang thing.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

They sell HD in India now. It’s a luxury machine that is priced out of the common market. Most people are riding 250’s with a banana seat that can accomodate the missus and their groceries. A 500 is a big bike there.

I doubt HD can compete with the existing small bike brands.

i hear you

but priced out of a market of 1b consumers projected to be the fasted, wealthiest growing market for the next century... just 3 -5% market reach is better than projected US growth... i'd take that chance.

going from a 2 wheeler (domestically called 50cc - 150cc bikes) to a 500cc HD designed for the market is easily made because its aspirational. and with gov. support and tax realignment on bikes over a certain cc. its easy.

you can legally get up to 5 people on a 50cc 2 wheeler now... a HD frame with 250cc - 500cc is a potential moving van conversion platform for the market. its not all one rider, one bike applications. they turn bikes into commercial vehicles, taxis, etc... HD is a strong brand overseas.

either way, HD has to do a complete 180 or it'll be gone.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by Rolex addict

I know a lot of retired guys that have BMW touring bikes. Incredible machines, but it's hard to beat the Japanese bikes. They offer the all day comfort and great reliability for a fraction of the cost. All of my motorcycles have been Honda except for my GNCC days. KTM was the only thing that could handle the abuse I dished out. GasGas was close, but you couldn't get parts for the dang thing.

For reference:

Honda Goldwing MSRP: $26,700
Yamaha Star Venture: $24,999
BMW K1600 GTL: $25,595

Yamaha Tenere ES: $16,199
Honda VFR1200X: $15,999
Suzuki V-STROM 1000 ABS: $13,999
BMW S1000XR: $16,695
Ducati Multistrada 1260: $18,695

Granted, the Japanese models can all be had at decent discounts and the European bikes start at those prices and go up quickly from there once you start adding features that you would actually want. They aren't THAT far apart in pricing really. And that Ducati Multistrada and BMW S1000XR are SOOOO much better than the Honda or Yamaha ADV bikes.

[Widows Son]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Harley has entry level bikes. Sportsters. And the biker gang image thing is a relic of the 70's. 1%ers are no longer significant anymore. Harley's issue is the baby boomer generation who were loyal Harley riders have aged into their 60s and 70s and are no longer riding. The younger generation has no interest in these bikes especially at their 15-30K price tags for what is essentially a warm weather toy. And yes, the company is in trouble financially due to lagging sales. Closing their plant in Kansas city and going to just the York, Pa factory.

Actually the average age of a Harley rider is in their mid 60's. That's what has Harley worried, the mid 20's -30's people aren't buying motorcycles, the current Harley owners aren't being replaced.

Another issue is the foreign market is drying up. There was a time when 30% or so of Harleys were being exported, that also kept the new bike prices artificially high here, along with the used bike prices.

[Rolex addict]

Originally Posted by SDRider

For reference:

Honda Goldwing MSRP: $26,700
Yamaha Star Venture: $24,999
BMW K1600 GTL: $25,595

Yamaha Tenere ES: $16,199
Honda VFR1200X: $15,999
Suzuki V-STROM 1000 ABS: $13,999
BMW S1000XR: $16,695
Ducati Multistrada 1260: $18,695

Granted, the Japanese models can all be had at decent discounts and the European bikes start at those prices and go up quickly from there once you start adding features that you would actually want. They aren't THAT far apart in pricing really. And that Ducati Multistrada and BMW S1000XR are SOOOO much better than the Honda or Yamaha ADV bikes.

You are correct. Japanese bikes can be had for a very good discount and save someone a few grand. It’s much harder to get discounts on a Duc or BMW. One of my sponsors sold Ducs and GasGas. He was willing to eat the tax. That’s it. I bought a Honda crotch rocket for $10k less. Both bikes were way above my skill level.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by SDRider

For reference:

Honda Goldwing MSRP: $26,700
Yamaha Star Venture: $24,999
BMW K1600 GTL: $25,595

Yamaha Tenere ES: $16,199
Honda VFR1200X: $15,999
Suzuki V-STROM 1000 ABS: $13,999
BMW S1000XR: $16,695
Ducati Multistrada 1260: $18,695

Granted, the Japanese models can all be had at decent discounts and the European bikes start at those prices and go up quickly from there once you start adding features that you would actually want. They aren't THAT far apart in pricing really. And that Ducati Multistrada and BMW S1000XR are SOOOO much better than the Honda or Yamaha ADV bikes.

The Honda Goldwing is far superior to any Harley touring bike and will be my next and last motorcycle. Had 3 Harleys including a touring bike and all have been sold. Waiting for my children to get a bit older and more independent.

[Widows Son]

Originally Posted by dba

Exactly. Harley started in 1903 with a V-Twin. In 1923, BMW came along with their Boxer-Twin. In the ensuing 115 years, BMW has introduced into their line; a single, a twin, an inline four and an inline six as well as still selling Boxer-Twins.

Harley has a V-Twin.

I've had countless bikes throughout the years, from every country. My current rides are a Heritage Softail and an Ultra Classic. To say that either are not reliable is insane. Any comparison between the new fuel injected motors to the Evos or Shovels is night and day. Mine have been fully converted to all synthectic fluids. They're both on battery tenders in the garage as we speak, in a month or so all I need to do is unplug them and away I go.

[lapince]

WTF???? Is this a joke? I have a Harley 48, to even think that HD would even consider making an electric bike makes me lose some respect I have for them, already lost part when they went from carburetors to injection, on the first one I had when you went from the basic one to a top notch, S&S for example, the difference was amazing, but ok, but electric bikes, from Harley??
Could have imagined it from a Japanese brand, not from them

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Widows Son

Actually the average age of a Harley rider is in their mid 60's. That's what has Harley worried, the mid 20's -30's people aren't buying motorcycles, the current Harley owners aren't being replaced.

Another issue is the foreign market is drying up. There was a time when 30% or so of Harleys were being exported, that also kept the new bike prices artificially high here, along with the used bike prices.

I was 20 when I got my first Sporster 883.
For me if you want the best bikes, you get either Ducatti or Harley, depending on your style. Those are bikes

[dba]

Originally Posted by Widows Son

I've had countless bikes throughout the years, from every country. My current rides are a Heritage Softail and an Ultra Classic. To say that either are not reliable is insane. Any comparison between the new fuel injected motors to the Evos or Shovels is night and day. Mine have been fully converted to all synthectic fluids. They're both on battery tenders in the garage as we speak, in a month or so all I need to do is unplug them and away I go.

Trying to see where I wrote Harleys are not reliable. Can't find it anywhere in my post.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by Widows Son

I've had countless bikes throughout the years, from every country. My current rides are a Heritage Softail and an Ultra Classic. To say that either are not reliable is insane. Any comparison between the new fuel injected motors to the Evos or Shovels is night and day. Mine have been fully converted to all synthectic fluids. They're both on battery tenders in the garage as we speak, in a month or so all I need to do is unplug them and away I go.

Nobody said they are unreliable. They are archaic (heavy, slow and old tech) but not really any less reliable, as long as you don’t start modifying them, than an Italian or German bike. They aren’t anywhere near as reliable as a Japanese bike though. That’s something the Japanese easily win hands down.

[SDRider]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

The Honda Goldwing is far superior to any Harley touring bike and will be my next and last motorcycle. Had 3 Harleys including a touring bike and all have been sold. Waiting for my children to get a bit older and more independent.

The Goldwing is the best touring bike out there IMO. It’s not particularly performance oriented, then again, neither are Harley’s, but if you want comfort, reliability and the best long distance touring bike on the planet, the Goldwing is what you get. The BMW K1600 is probably right up there with it though and I’d have to ride them both to make the final determination. There simply is nothing else I would consider.

I love my Ducati Multistrada though. It is a performance oriented machine and it just puts a huge grin on my face whenever I ride it. It excels when the roads get twisty. Endless hours on flat, straight blacktop... not so much. It will do that just fine but the lack of wind protection and comfort will leave you wanting to get off it after a few hours. I commute on it quite a bit but in 3 years of ownership I’ve only managed to rack up a little over 13,000 miles on it. It gets ridden in the rain and it sits uncovered in the parking lot at work and it still looks brand new. I take good care of it and it takes care of me. I have no plans on getting rid of it anytime soon. I love that bike.

I owned another Ducati prior along with a few Japanese bikes. I briefly considered a BMW and have ridden a few of them. I’ve also ridden a few Harley’s but I’d never buy one. There was a time, when I first started riding, that I thought I wanted a Harley but it turned out that I just didn’t know what I wanted. The Baggers look cool but there just isn’t anything they make that appeals to me.

[East Bay Rider]

I can't bring myself to "upgrade" my 20 year old Honda Valkyrie for any HD right now.
When I do a mental cost comparison it seems as though a $20K Honda F6B beats a more expensive HD bagger of any flavor in HP/performance and expected maintenance, reliability, longevity.
I'd consider a smaller HD (fatboy, softail) for commuting but only a used beater that will see weather.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by SDRider

Nobody said they are unreliable. They are archaic (heavy, slow and old tech) but not really any less reliable, as long as you don't start modifying them, than an Italian or German bike. They aren’t anywhere near as reliable as a Japanese bike though. That’s something the Japanese easily win hands down.

I bought a 2000 FXDX that I took off the top end and replaced with it with all Screamin' Eagle parts before it left the dealer. 95" cylinders, heads, forged aluminum pistons, pushrods, carb, ignition, cams, exhaust. It wasn't a kit but individual parts I selected. On the Dyno it put out 95HP and 96FT/LBS at the rear wheel. I put 30,000 trouble free miles on it before I sold it last year. I didn't baby it either. I didn't have one breakdown or repair, or malfunction with it. I serviced it according to the manual. I also changed the oil every 1,000 miles. Even after I started running synthetic. Might have been overkill, but it worked They can reliable when modified as long as you use the right parts and take care of them

Now I have a 2003 100th Anniversary Electra Glide Classic with a 95" Big Bore kit in it. Had 23,000 on it when I got it last year. I know the original owner and he babied it so there's no worry to me. I also helped him set it up when he ordered it

[Widows Son]

I don't recall in what post I inferred "unreliable," it wasn't directed at any one person. I see Harley as evolving like cars did regarding fuel injection. How many new cars do we see with carbs??? The first thing I did with my shovels and Evos was to have S&S Super E's installed along with Dyna Ignitions. Those days are over. Sure, if you're a mechanic you can work on an old bike on the side of the road and nurse it home, if the newer bikes crap out you'll be calling for a tow. At least with me, I'd be calling for the tow with either. In my old age all I want to do is put air in the tires, check the fluids, and be on my way.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by Widows Son

I don't recall in what post I inferred "unreliable," it wasn't directed at any one person. I see Harley as evolving like cars did regarding fuel injection. How many new cars do we see with carbs??? The first thing I did with my shovels and Evos was to have S&S Super E's installed along with Dyna Ignitions. Those days are over. Sure, if you're a mechanic you can work on an old bike on the side of the road and nurse it home, if the newer bikes crap out you'll be calling for a tow. At least with me, I'd be calling for the tow with either. In my old age all I want to do is put air in the tires, check the fluids, and be on my way.

I did that many times with my 69XLH. Once the front exhaust came off the manifold on the road. It stayed on due to the lower support. I pulled over, took out my tool kit and waited a few minutes to where it cooled enough to where I could hold it with a rag. I fixed it, looked at my buddy and said let's go. He looked at me and said "serouisly"

Now I'm like you. I just want to ride it. Not many people can fix a modern motorcycle on the side of the road. Too many electronics. Keep the rubber side down

[Blansky]

If you read the motorcycle forums the angst is pretty prevalent about trying get younger rides into the sport/hobby/lifestyle.

One of the many problems Harley has is their base which is dying off, and young people aren’t interested in cruisers. Whenever Harley has tried other styles their dealers and customers who are into the pirate lifestyle and costuming, scoff at the new bikes.

The more European style sport touring bikes like BMW are doing well and younger people have always like the crotch rocket sport bikes, but often grow out of them, but don’t progress towards cruisers either.

Triumph has been doing well with its cafe style Bonneville do-overs from the 60s and they are attracting a lot of younger people.

Harley is sort of a victim of its own success. I believe the majority of Harley Cruiser style bikes are now being bought by doctors and dentists who can afford them and like to play dress up on weekends.