Help with 16800 purchase

[gerard88t]

Hi Guys,

I have a friend whom picked up a clean 16800 with matte dial and he is willing to trade toward my 1680. The question I have is, what is the possibility, if any, a 16800 with a 9.4 million serial number could have a matte dial without gold surrounds? Is it even a remote chance to have a matte dial? Thanks!

[Hawk99]

...that all 16800 have the matte dial without surrounds. The 16800 was the transitional Sub between the 1680 and the now 16610. The main differences, or improvements, between the 1680 and the 16800 was that the 16800 had a new movement, saphire crystal, depth rating to 300m, and uni-directional bezel.
You should be safe in expecting a matte dial and no gold surrounds on the indicies.

[sakuraba]

Originally Posted by Hawk99

...that all 16800 have the matte dial without surrounds. The 16800 was the transitional Sub between the 1680 and the now 16610. The main differences, or improvements, between the 1680 and the 16800 was that the 16800 had a new movement, saphire crystal, depth rating to 300m, and uni-directional bezel.
You should be safe in expecting a matte dial and no gold surrounds on the indicies.

+1

Isn't the WG surround dial considered a service replacement dial for the 16800?

[mastermixer]

Here is a 9.7 Million 16800 I owned Hope this helps.

[ddave]

From what I understand, somewhere around the 8.5M point Rolex switched to the gloss dial with the WG surrounds on the 16800s. I have an 8.2M 16800 and that was getting near the end of the matte dials. A 9.4M should be well into the gloss dials with WG surrounds, though with Rolex anything is possible.....

It is a good bet that at some point in time that watch had an older matte dial installed.

[sakuraba]

I stand corrected.

Thanks for the info.

[samt]

mine is a 9.4m series and yes it comes with WG.
due to no exact confirmation, 9 mil series can actually be correct to have matt and WG... since 9mil series is the last of 16800.. next up is 168000..which i also heard there's a few with matt face,strange huh?

[ParisDakarBmw]

These watches have no set rules, it's a bit confusing for me to be honest. I'm reading everything here to understand. Thanks for the info guys!

[inspires]

I have a 8.7 serial with original matte dial. To my understanding the gloss with WG surrounds didn't start until 9 mill+

[gerard88t]

Thanks for all the help. So to summarize, it's believed a 9 mil serial 16800 must have a white gold surround dial correct? In that case is there any worth still getting the piece anyway just due to it has a nice matte dial?

[Tools]

Originally Posted by gerard88t

Thanks for all the help. So to summarize, it's believed a 9 mil serial 16800 must have a white gold surround dial correct? In that case is there any worth still getting the piece anyway just due to it has a nice matte dial?

No... that is not correct..

Just like some Z-'s have an engraved rehaut and some M's do not...(a modern analogy), so too did Rolex use up what was in stock rather than drawing a single line in the sand during production of almost all models....

There have been 168000's reported original with matte dials, so it is possible that almost any serial 16800 MAY have been originally fitted with a matte dial..

It is only "generally accepted" that WG surrounds started with ~9mil, and so the MAJORITY of 16800's after that date will be so fitted..

[gerard88t]

Thanks Larry. How is the collectiblity affected in the case of this matte dial late model 16800? Would it be worth taking in as a collection piece? I will be giving up a 1680 in trade (I suppose he will also throw me some cash) that has been polished over it's lifetime. The 16800 looks like an unpolished case to me.

Originally Posted by Tools

No... that is not correct..

Just like some Z-'s have an engraved rehaut and some M's do not...(a modern analogy), so too did Rolex use up what was in stock rather than drawing a single line in the sand during production of almost all models....

There have been 168000's reported original with matte dials, so it is possible that almost any serial 16800 MAY have been originally fitted with a matte dial..

It is only "generally accepted" that WG surrounds started with ~9mil, and so the MAJORITY of 16800's after that date will be so fitted..

[Orchi]

Err buddy Gerard...IF Orchi is in your position...
Orchi would NOT consider to trade the 1680 White Sub with 16800 Sub...
Matte or No Matte...(assuming that you are holding a 1680 White Sub).

For a start...Orchi has observed personally many 16800 Sub...
The earlier 16800 Sub with Matte Dial originally from factory...is < or = 8.5mil case series...

Those with >= 8.5mil case series until R Series...
were fitted with WG surround markers on Glossy Dial...from factory.

Those with Matte Dial were introduced from as early as about 6+mil case series...

So over a span of say...1979 to 1988/89...
Rolex has produced many more 16800...as opposed to 1680 White Sub...
which were produced from about 1975 to 1979 briefly...or so...
despite that 1680 Sub has longer production period from 1967...
right up to 1979...because from 1967 to 1975 or so...
Rolex produced the 1680 RED Submariners...

Therefore...when you ask about collectability aspects of BOTH 1680 White...
n 16800 Submariner watches...naturally the 1680 White Sub is more difficult to get...
1680 White Sub is definitely more desirable n valuable...vintage.

Nonetheless...the above is just from Orchi's own opinions...
which may differ with others...n yours...

Here's another reason why you should reconsider...

[gerard88t]

Hi Orchi,
Thank you for the convincing information and reasons to retain my 1680. I believe I will not make the trade afterall! Great photos you shared! Thank you

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by gerard88t

Hi Orchi,
Thank you for the convincing information and reasons to retain my 1680. I believe I will not make the trade afterall! Great photos you shared! Thank you

Err buddy Gerard...TQ for your compliments...

That is perhaps...
one of the quickest...yet wisest decision...

Please post some pictures of your 1680 White Sub...
when possible for all to share...

[Hawk99]

I was in error in my earlier post (re: gloss dial and surrounds on 9mil serials and replacement dials). Thank you again to the forum for the education. This place is awesome for all the shared knowledge.

Anyway, glad to hear your decision to keep the 1680 White. I love them!

[chopperboy]

I Love The 1680 Red's Too

[gerard88t]

Thanks to everyone that took time to reply. I'm keeping hold of the 1680 and rather see if another collectible Rolex shows up for it. I have wanted an old explorer for a long time and maybe I will start to search again and see if there's one somewhere that my 1680 would be of trade interest for the explorer owner looking to get a 1680. Thank you again

[mike]

Orchi has, of course, nailed it. Between the two the 1680 is the clear winner for the collector. A matt 16800 makes a nice daily wear, but that serial number/dial is going to raise questions with collectors should resale be a consideration.

[gerard88t]

Here is my 1680. Not the prettiest around from what I've seen here but as I learned, it's good enough to hold onto a little longer

[mike]

Originally Posted by gerard88t

Here is my 1680. Not the prettiest around from what I've seen here but as I learned, it's good enough to hold onto a little longer

Great looking watch. It would be a keeper for me.

[SLS]

I personally would not touch a matte 16800 that has a SN higher than 8.5 million, you will always have people that doubt its authenticity.
Scott

[chopperboy]

Here Is My 168000 100% Authentic & Original!

[gerard88t]

Originally Posted by chopperboy

Here Is My 168000 100% Authentic & Original!

Did you buy that 168000 new? I have a 168000 and it has a gloss dial with surrounds that is matte in finish. It's not a spider dial nor a specked dial, but it is surely flattening out from it's glossy start. I'm its second owner. I should be happy with it, but I'm afraid it sits more because I'm a vintage nut!

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by chopperboy

Here Is My 168000 100% Authentic & Original!

Err buddy Matt...thanks for sharing the pic of your Sub...
which serial nos. does it have...?
Where was it bought when new...
n did you have the original papers for it?

BOTH Matte Dial variants n WG Glossy Dial variants of 16800 n 168000...
are interchangeable...physically.
It's also a known fact that...the early Rolex WG surround Glossy Dials...
are very prone to cracking...a.k.a. Spider effect...
thus MANY 16800 n 168000 that were having this common Dial defects...
have had its Dial...replaced by RSC.

Orchi since found this letter from Rolex Germany...(Courtesy of VRF)
detailing a particular 168000 Triple Zero Sub having S/N. 9.3mil case...
was issued with BOTH Dials...a WG Glossy Dial n a Matte Service Replacement Dial...
in GERMANY...

Pic courtesy of VRF...



Translation:

Dear Mr. XXXX

according to our records this watch was delivered with both dials, even more due to the fact that both dials were available in our Service department....

WBR.....

NOTE: The KEY word in that Rolex letter is...SERVICE Replacement.

Thus Orchi is in opinion...that ORIGINALLY 168000 Triple 0 Sub...
were all delivered with WG Glossy Dial...
UNLESS...there could be a letter from Rolex that says...
the particular 168000 with certain S/N...was issued with Matte Dial...
in order to be 100% Original n...correct...

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by SLS

I personally would not touch a matte 16800 that has a SN higher than 8.5 million, you will always have people that doubt its authenticity.
Scott

Err buddy Scott...Orchi concurs with you here...

[samt]

my dial for 16800 is really lousy. mine is a 9 mil wg dial. the tritium on the markers got little dots on it- looks like sone tritum came off. at the 6oclock the white little line also came off. i tink next 5 years it might fall apart. hahahaha

[chopperboy]

Orchi,

Thanks for your interesting views! I have all the original papers, box, tag ect........The serial number on my 168000 is 8658165 purchase date of July 11, 1985. This was taken off the punch paper certificate.

Matt

[Orchi]

Originally Posted by chopperboy

Orchi,

Thanks for your interesting views! I have all the original papers, box, tag ect........The serial number on my 168000 is 8658165 purchase date of July 11, 1985. This was taken off the punch paper certificate.

Matt

Err buddy Matt...thanks for your additional input...

There has been many similar topics of discussions both online n offline...
regarding the elusive Rolex 168000...

Here are few examples dating back to the oldest in 2004...
in the VRF...n later in this very TRF also...

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=527370

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...ge/1090852576/

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20759...ge/1113250890/

http://www.vintagesubmariner.com/vintagesubs.html

Orchi has since observed the Ref 168000 having had the chance to get...
one nice example which is an R-case series...that Orchi believes to be
on the SAFE ZONE...

In Orchi's observation...some of those found in the early 9mil case series...
were made up to look like 16800 0...from 9mil case series of 16800...
perhaps because at one time...
there was a hot pursuit by Rolex watch collectors for 168000...
due to its rarity...

To cut the story short...
Orchi has developed what Orchi thinks...could be the fail proof methods...
of identifying whether which of the certain 168000 or 16800 0...
is 100% correct...Ref 168000 Submariner...or NOT.

[maverick]

On the 168000 the serial number matches the date but I have never seen a matte dialed one before. Is that a replacement dial or did it come from Rolex that way?

I definitely would keep a 1680 over a 16800. If for no other reason it's worth more. =) maverick