Panerai ACTUAL In House Movements?

[Saoirse32]

This got me thinking as I read another thread-
Does anyone have a decent knowledge or list of confirmed PAM in house movements? Meaning ones that Hodinkee, others have shown to be real.
I ask as it seems to be quite confusing recently, and dare I say, somewhat misleading by the brand itself on what is in house. Looks like Panerai was calling the P.9200 in house until it was revealed it isn't...?
I'm currently looking to add to my collection, specifically the PAM1356 (Green), with P.9010 movement, but will stay away if otherwise due to the higher price.
Thanks all!


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[enjoythemusic]

Ask if it has hacking seconds or not. Hacking is the upper end, non-hacking has been reported to be lower cost / different decoration. Feel free to call Panerai for details.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Ask if it has hacking seconds or not. Hacking is the upper end, non-hacking has been reported to be lower cost / different decoration. Feel free to call Panerai for details.

Yeah, I saw the BS about the 9010 (version 2 lol)...
I love the brand, but will admit it's a slight turn off, although may not still stop me from buying


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[zion_rasta]

Panerai never said the P9200 movement was in house. I think a lot of people assumed it was due to the “P” including Hodinkee and Instagrammers… so to cover their reputation’s asses they started blaming Panerai about lying.

[Mystro]

The Panerai P9010 is a very good true in-house movement designed and engineered by Panerai for only Panerai. The movement is especially ideal for a luxury dive/sports watch. Other than it’s gen 2 not being able to hack, it STILL will stand against any other top in-house movement in performance. It’s amplitude is very high in any position and long into its power reserve (looking at you Rolex 32 series). The power reserve with its double barrel mainsprings is why it has such hp under the hood also yielding a 80hours+ all topped off with ceramic rotor bearings. Kinda has every top level design a movement snob could ask for (other than this recent gen 2 non-hack). Then again there are a few holy trinity in house movements that didn’t hack either yet they got a pass.

I am a technical movement enthusiast and have a gen 1 p.9010 in my Pam 661 Carbotech.
In my experience, the p.9010 doesn’t take a back seat to any other in-house movement in performance and betters many for a luxury dive watch.

Here is what the gen 1 P.9010 had in its press release.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Mystro

The Panerai P9010 is a very good true in-house movement designed and engineered by Panerai for only Panerai. The movement is especially ideal for a luxury dive/sports watch. Other than it’s gen 2 not being able to hack, it STILL will stand against any other top in-house movement in performance. It’s amplitude is very high in any position and long into its power reserve (looking at you Rolex 32 series). The power reserve with its double barrel mainsprings is why it has such hp under the hood also yielding a 80hours+ all topped off with ceramic rotor bearings. Kinda has every top level design a movement snob could ask for (other than this recent gen 2 non-hack). Then again there are a few holy trinity in house movements that didn’t hack either yet they got a pass.

I am a technical movement enthusiast and have a gen 1 p.9010 in my Pam 661 Carbotech.
In my experience, the p.9010 doesn’t take a back seat to any other in-house movement in performance and betters many for a luxury dive watch.

Here is what the gen 1 P.9010 had in its press release.

Agreed!

So where do you think the "hate" comes from? Seems like we hear it all from it's a great brand to it's a "fashion piece."
Maybe the truth lies in the middle??


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

Agreed!

So where do you think the "hate" comes from? Seems like we hear it all from it's a great brand to it's a "fashion piece."

A great brand can also be a fashion piece, Swatch, Bell&Ross, Rolex, plus quite a few other brands.

For example, not disclosing movement details is a problem for Panerai as they move to lower-level types with solid backs, yet without full disclosure. Would you agree a brand that sells a $15,000 timepiece should disclose movement details when asked?

Can you name a brand of timepiece where the company outright refuses to disclose movement details to members of the press?

It's not hate at all, for me it brings into question what customers are buying, and makes very murky the true value of their products when compared to other brands that value and fully disclose movement quality, technology, and decoration. A timepiece is made of various elements, some love visual styling above all else and that seems to be Panerai's game, some are dial lovers, and some admire movement quality and ingenuity like Omega for example.

As Panerai enters a higher pricing scheme, they need to up their entire package to justify the costs imho. Bell&Ross, perhaps the visual comparison to PAM, is doing quite well at lower pricing plus they disclose movement, etc.

Have two PAMs here, 1118 and 1033 and waiting on the 42mm Bronzo, yet at some point it may be hard to justify the pricing. PAM's newer models seem to be pushing on msrp in an area the product's overall package may not justify, would you agree?

[KBM]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

at some point it may be hard to justify the pricing. PAM's newer models seem to be pushing on msrp in an area the product's overall package may not justify, would you agree?

I entirely agree and have discussed this with fellow Paneristi as of late. In my opinion, as *gorgeous* as it is, the baby bronzo already makes no sense at 16k.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

A great brand can also be a fashion piece, Swatch, Bell&Ross, Rolex, plus quite a few other brands.

For example, not disclosing movement details is a problem for Panerai as they move to lower-level types with solid backs, yet without full disclosure. Would you agree a brand that sells a $15,000 timepiece should disclose movement details when asked?

Can you name a brand of timepiece where the company outright refuses to disclose movement details to members of the press?

It's not hate at all, for me it brings into question what customers are buying, and makes very murky the true value of their products when compared to other brands that value and fully disclose movement quality, technology, and decoration. A timepiece is made of various elements, some love visual styling above all else and that seems to be Panerai's game, some are dial lovers, and some admire movement quality and ingenuity like Omega for example.

As Panerai enters a higher pricing scheme, they need to up their entire package to justify the costs imho. Bell&Ross, perhaps the visual comparison to PAM, is doing quite well at lower pricing plus they disclose movement, etc.

Have two PAMs here, 1118 and 1033 and waiting on the 42mm Bronzo, yet at some point it may be hard to justify the pricing. PAM's newer models seem to be pushing on msrp in an area the product's overall package may not justify, would you agree?

I agree with all of it, in fact. And what you've stated has given me some pause when purchasing the brand.

Over the years, I've owned 6 PAMs, and so far the only one that's stuck around is my 1209.

I would say that I personally have a tougher time justifying buying some models I'm truly interested in, and that's mainly because of the price point. I look at what Tudor puts out for example, and then wonder why or how Panerai justifies its prices, even when purchased at a discount.

FWIW, and this is strictly my opinion, although Panerai are unique, they are overpriced.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by KBM

I entirely agree and have discussed this with fellow Paneristi as of late. In my opinion, as *gorgeous* as it is, the baby bronzo already makes no sense at 16k.

Totally agree, and keep in mind I went for the 1118 hook, line, and sinker. And yes waiting on the baby Bronzo (was very kindly offered the 47mm Bronzo months ago yet my wrist is too small, am very happy for the next person Bob offered it to).

Anywho...

Still, ok, admit 'fools' who love a certain styling are out there, and yes I'm in that category as much as I know in my mind about pricing......

But in the same breath never felt I'd ever want / have a Bvlgari yet one look AND analysis of the Octo FS 100m WP and I was blown away. Even the bracelet with space made for the butterfly clasp was inspiring! INSPIRING! Got one instantly without hesitation because I saw the value it offered, the style of course, and we know Bvlgari service is very good.

Sorry for babbling on. I WANT Panerai to succeed, yet they're pushing hard on the high end of pricing for the overall package received imho. Just pleeeeeease keep customer service high Panerai. Please.

[KBM]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Totally agree, and keep in mind I went for the 1118 hook, line, and sinker. And yes waiting on the baby Bronzo (was very kindly offered the 47mm Bronzo months ago yet my wrist is too small, am very happy for the next person Bob offered it to).



Anywho...



Still, ok, admit 'fools' who love a certain styling are out there, and yes I'm in that category as much as I know in my mind about pricing......



But in the same breath never felt I'd ever want / have a Bvlgari yet one look AND analysis of the Octo FS 100m WP and I was blown away. Even the bracelet with space made for the butterfly clasp was inspiring! INSPIRING! Got one instantly without hesitation because I saw the value it offered, the style of course, and we know Bvlgari service is very good.



Sorry for babbling on. I WANT Panerai to succeed, yet they're pushing hard on the high end of pricing for the overall package received imho. Just pleeeeeease keep customer service high Panerai. Please.

I hear you, the heart wants what the heart wants, and the 42mm bronzo is just soooo good...

But when I see, for instance, a bronze Black Bay for 3.7k, which is a heck of a watch, with a great in house caliber, beautiful case, etc., I can't help but scratch my head at Panerai's pricing decision. I get that the market for the LE bronzos has been red hot for years and they wanted to leave less money on the table, but pricing the 42mm at 16k just seems so shortsighted of them.

[Mystro]

My main issue with Panerai is they are following a more Omega way with their catalog of watches with producing so many different level of watches. I understand different levels will yield different movements and price points but it all becomes too many watches and they all look too similar. The Due line is a strait out money grab watering down the upper end watches by giving them too similar Panerai designs with lower end movements and pathetic WR. This is the line I will concede is more “fashion” targeted. The “Due” stands on the shoulders and “idea” of the true top tier Panerai models to “look” like a Panerai dive watch without being a dive watch. All this does is screw over the Panerai design and exclusivity.
The top tier Panerai models with true in-house movements are excellent and brilliant with their proprietary materials that really do set them apart from other top tier luxury brands with those models BUT Panerai is their worst enemy by knocking off their own famous design to sell low end models like some counterfeit brand. My recommendation is you buy the Panerai watch and not the brand as a whole. Even Rolex had the sense to not put “Rolex” on a Tudor watch to pimp the brand and keep the two very separate from each other.

I said this before but Panerai is like some crazy eccentric genius that produces some amazing pieces but then will do something bizarre when they are off their meds. You have to tolerated the nonsense to let the genius produce that occasional amazing piece of art.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Mystro

My main issue with Panerai is they are following a more Omega way with their catalog of watches with producing so many different level of watches. I understand different levels will yield different movements and price points but it all becomes too many watches and they all look too similar. The Due line is a strait out money grab watering down the upper end watches by giving them too similar Panerai designs with lower end movements and pathetic WR. This is the line I will concede is more “fashion” targeted. The “Due” stands on the shoulders and “idea” of the true top tier Panerai models to “look” like a Panerai dive watch without being a dive watch. All this does is screw over the Panerai design and exclusivity.
The top tier Panerai models with true in-house movements are excellent and brilliant with their proprietary materials that really do set them apart from other top tier luxury brands with those models BUT Panerai is their worst enemy by knocking off their own famous design to sell low end models like some counterfeit brand. My recommendation is you buy the Panerai watch and not the brand as a whole. Even Rolex had the sense to not put “Rolex” on a Tudor watch to pimp the brand and keep the two very separate from each other.

I said this before but Panerai is like some crazy eccentric genius that produces some amazing pieces but then will do something bizarre when they are off their meds. You have to tolerated the nonsense to let the genius produce that occasional amazing piece of art.

Totally agree, especially with your point about buying the watch, not the brand.

I definitely didn't start this thread to crap on Panerai, and I'm glad to see the responses so far have been well thought out and critical, while still keeping it real and calling out what needs fixing.

Love love love your carbotech BTW!


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[Pam1086]

I was following so call scandal; basically it is based only on instagram post; mr. Youtuber forgot to mention that Panerai did not market said caliber on its official web as inhouse even though it has seperat section dealing with inhouse movements. Instagram, youtube and etc people will do anything today for a like because they are paid that way.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I said this before but Panerai is like some crazy eccentric genius that produces some amazing pieces but then will do something bizarre when they are off their meds. You have to tolerated the nonsense to let the genius produce that occasional amazing piece of art.

Well said.

i keep looking at the $500 superfakes and at this point they're seriously giving Panerai a run for the $$$$. What might be deeply concerning for Panerai is when the movement within these $500 products are of higher quality than in the actual $8000+ timepiece produced by Panerai(!). It seems we're just about reaching that point imho.

[stockae92]

Originally Posted by zion_rasta

Panerai never said the P9200 movement was in house. I think a lot of people assumed it was due to the “P” including Hodinkee and Instagrammers… so to cover their reputation’s asses they started blaming Panerai about lying.

yep, I agree.

I looked it up on PAM web site and they never mentioned it as in-house caliber. I don't understand the big fuzz against naming it a "P" movement.

I just see the whole thing as click bait from certain youtuber, haters trying to find reasons to hate some more, and people who are already angry because Aston Martin is now using Mercedes engine

[enjoythemusic]

But WOW what an engine from Mercedes! Love it. Now if Aston Martin downgraded to a production mid-grade Honda engine yet raised pricing I could understand the high level of dissatisfaction. Sure the Honda engine may be more reliable and cheaper parts costs, yet how would Aston Martin justify higher pricing with a downgraded engine?

Many vloggers live off clickbait, TPG proved that until they burned to the ground, then touched the ashes, and stomped the ashes into the ground. So yes, ignore most vloggers imho.

_______

WatchTime might be to blame here?

"Ensconced inside the 100-meter water resistant case (behind a solid, 12-sided screwed caseback) is a new automatic movement, Panerai Caliber P.9200, with 41 jewels, a 28,800-vph frequency, and a 42-hour power reserve. It’s not clear how much of the P.9200 is made in-house — most Panerai manufacture calibers have at least a three-day power reserve, and all of its previous chronograph models have incorporated outsourced base movements — but it is equipped with modern technical elements like a Glucydur balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protector. "

https://www.watchtime.com/wristwatch...ee-references/

Why was it unclear about the provenance of the movement? WatchTime is a known publication, so who is being 'vague' about movements and not fully disclosing them from the get-go... or ever?

[6XYBE63ST]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Well said.

i keep looking at the $500 superfakes and at this point they're seriously giving Panerai a run for the $$$$. What might be deeply concerning for Panerai is when the movement within these $500 products are of higher quality than in the actual $8000+ timepiece produced by Panerai(!). It seems we're just about reaching that point imho.

iv'e had a few super fakes and literally they can't tolerate water. looks are spot on but my cat takes to water better than panerai reps. i however so love panerai's 8 year warrantee...