5512 Gilt Dial - No lume Real or not?

[jerseybean]

Hi
New to the forum, but have bought a few items from some of the members here so thanks guys!

Does anyone have any thoughts on this 5512 Gilt dial for sale? The usual story of it came from a watchmaker's estate, so Im always skeptical when I hear that.

Its a gilt dial, no lume... what does everyone thing it feels real, no lume does that affect the value having someone redo the lume as the patina from the Lume would have been destroyed of course.

I've been looking for a dial for 1965 5512, I have everything else but the dial.

Thanks for any advice.

Sorry for the larger images

[mbc]

I'm not a gilt dial expert, so I hope folks with deep knowledge will chime in....

I think it looks pretty good (obviously ignoring blemishes, no lume, etc.), down to the "S" in Submariner that seems like it sits a little above the "UBMARINER" and the "sloped "E"s in "OYSTER PERPETUAL"

The thing that bothers me is the 12 o'clock marker -- the hash marks don't line up evenly with the base of the triangle (inverted triangle top on the dial). I've looked at 5513mattedial.com at the 5512 Gilt page and the triangle doesn't line up there either on the examples they show, but the overhang seems to be on the left, not the right like on your example. The 1960's were not precise engineering times for Rolex by any stretch, so check HQMilton and look at as many examples as you can to get comfortable....

Also do a basic check as to whether Singer was the dial mfr for this run...

Hope others chime in, good luck!

[Michael M.]

Dial is genuine.

[jerseybean]

What's the best way to relume the dial - any recommendations on restoring the dial without destroying the value.

[mbc]

I've only relumed one dial and that was because it had a crap re-lume to begin with...yours is just washed (no lume) so i wouldn't have been compelled to do anything to it.

Having said that, the guy is James Hyman in the UK who is renowned on Omega vintage boards. Was a few years ago, but he is awesome.

[JerimiahLee]

Dial is real

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Dial is genuine.

Concur. Probably early-mid '60s.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

What's the best way to relume the dial - any recommendations on restoring the dial without destroying the value.

My recommendation is to leave the dial as is, so don't relume at all.

[Ashton_Horologist]

That can definitely be re-lumed to look period correct.

Take a look at this thread:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=750303

[jerseybean]

Thanks, I was thinking of sending it here

classicwatchrepair dot com but it's in HK... which fine with but international shipping adds risk.

Or there's a place in LA that does it, I don't remember the name, but I'm open to suggestions to others who will do the right thing to make it look correctly aged.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

which fine with but international shipping adds risk.

does it? have you lost many international shipments when shipped properly?

[jerseybean]

Yes, to Italy.. but I think it's known for stuff going MIA from the US which is why eBay sellers sometimes say they won't ship to Italy.

I'm actually in touch with James Hyman and very impressed so far just from looking at his work on Instagram, so it's off to the UK... sadly I cannot go home but the dial can I'm from Jersey but in New Jersey now, just to confuse everyone.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

...
I'm from Jersey but in New Jersey now, just to confuse everyone.

I confused everyone here when going to Jersey a couple of years ago...

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=551560

[jerseybean]

Hahah yeah its off the french coast

[jerseybean]

So, I'm super annoyed and sad that the dial when looked at by my watchmaker - kataw Jewelers in NJ with a ton of experience with Vintage watch said that the dial is fake sadly. Lesson learned that Ebay is a place for a lot of deceitful people. I should have waited and purchased from a trusted forum like this one instead.

So watch out for this seller.
jade1688

[jerseybean]

So, Im super annoyed and sad that the dial when looked at by my watchmaker - kataw Jewelers in NJ with a ton of experience with Vintage watch said that the dial is fake sadly. Lesson learned that Ebay is a place for a lot of deceitful people. I should have waited and purchased from a trusted forum like this one instead.

So watch out for this seller.
jade1688

[jerseybean]

Turns out the dial is fake. I went to my trusted vintage guy who has a great of background in rolex kataw jewelers in NJ

My fault for trusting an ebay seller and not buying from a
Trusted source like this forum

[JustinK]

You posted the dial here and were told it’s real. Did your watchmaker tell you why he thinks it’s fake?

You left the seller negative feedback on EBay, did you attempt to return the dial?

[jerseybean]

attempting to return the dial... seller just escalated the issue and I talked to eBay directly on the phone so just waiting on eBay.

If it's real the seller should have no issue taking back a return and then selling it again like most eBay sellers.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

If it's real the seller should have no issue taking back a return and then selling it again like most eBay sellers.

Not necessarily.
If a seller sold something that he knew to be real and was told by a buyer that is was fake because someone else told him it was, and wanted to return it days or weeks after the sale, I could see him being pretty upset. It’s a pain having to undo an entire deal, return money, arrange for return shipping, and start all over again with a new sale.

Now, if he knew it was fake, I could see him wanting to resolve it without fuss and move on.

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

Turns out the dial is fake. I went to my trusted vintage guy who has a great of background in rolex kataw jewelers in NJ

My fault for trusting an ebay seller and not buying from a
Trusted source like this forum

Looks like your trusted Vintage guy isn't that knowledge. The dial is owned by a local collector. I've seen it in person. Condition is certainly not exceptional but it is an original dial.

[jerseybean]

Ive dealt with fakes before and have been taken advantage of, so while i understand that you think its real i just dont want to take the chance on a washed dial that ive been told isnt real or has altered or repainted whatever the case. Its just too much money and when you have a seller that is unwilling to take an item back it just makes me more suspicious to he honest. I sell a lot on ebay and when someone isnt happy im the first to offer a solution and a return, fix or money back.

[interestedwatcher]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

So, I'm super annoyed and sad that the dial when looked at by my watchmaker - kataw Jewelers in NJ with a ton of experience with Vintage watch said that the dial is fake sadly. Lesson learned that Ebay is a place for a lot of deceitful people. I should have waited and purchased from a trusted forum like this one instead.

So watch out for this seller.
jade1688

In the world of Rolex, it's always a lot safer to cry 'fake' than real, and you'll be right more often than not... So all respect to your watchmaker, but if he hasn't told you why it's fake (beyond the vibe of it) I'm not sure why you'd put more weight on his word, than a number of people posting in here?

If it is a fake, they have done an exceptional job with the ageing and patina!

Anyway, if you can find a comparison dial that it should look like, I'd be happy to do an overlay for you in photoshop, here is an example of an authentication I've done previously.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by jerseybean

Ive dealt with fakes before and have been taken advantage of, so while i understand that you think its real i just dont want to take the chance on a washed dial that ive been told isnt real or has altered or repainted whatever the case. Its just too much money and when you have a seller that is unwilling to take an item back it just makes me more suspicious to he honest. I sell a lot on ebay and when someone isnt happy im the first to offer a solution and a return, fix or money back.

In short, if Michael M. says that the dial is real it only means that your expert should close his shop and start a very different job.

Inviato dal mio SM-T719 utilizzando Tapatalk

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by fmc000

In short, if Michael M. says that the dial is real it only means that your expert should close his shop and start a very different job.

Inviato dal mio SM-T719 utilizzando Tapatalk

Ha!

[tekno]

If you have buyers remorse I can seem a seller agreeing to take it back minus all the fees and costs.

If you’re trying to get back 100% of your money by calling it a fake that isn’t cool.

You may intend to pay for the fees which is why I toned this post down

[Dan S]

If someone is working on an expensive vintage Rolex project, they should probably try to develop extensive first-person expertise so that they are not totally reliant on people on the internet or their watchmaker.

Someone is always going to say "fake", but not everyone's opinion is equally credible.