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Old 25 March 2019, 02:00 AM   #31
dtwer
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Originally Posted by Juantxo View Post
Most Rolex dealers make their big bucks selling Rolex watches. A Rolex dealership mostly is a secure and significant money maker. No Rolex dealer wants to lose his link to Rolex.

Thus, Rolex can simply start buying a watch here and there from gray dealers, follow the serial number, and sanction the source (an authorized dealer). Soon the gray market will dry out.
This is the best way to turn off the spigots.

Adding to this Rolex can also institute a strict registration regime at the AD point of sale to register every watch sold. Cross referencing the registration data with any warranty repair requests and Rolex will have a very effective control of how its watches flow.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:03 AM   #32
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Folks in hot real estate markets are familiar with the idea that a seller will list a property way under market price to generate a bidding frenzy and sell for top dollar. Rolex is doing the same with most of their professional series watches.

Raise the MSRP to $30k on an SS Daytona and $15k on a Sub and watch half this forum realize Rolex is not in their budget (the way they already view AP or Patek). Omega and Breitling get more of the “budget luxury” share, and Rolex moves up market.

The drama and angst over this is just another example of the entitlement mentality. “I want a Rolex, and I want it cheaper than the market says it’s worth. Rolex and their ADs owe it to me.” Boo-hoo....
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:04 AM   #33
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i think they absolutely know. They wholesale watches and thats it. What the AD does to sell them one at a time i think they turn a blind eye.

They may make some token gesture to look like they care, but they dont. They have done nothing to correct the cause, which is the chronic oversupply of most of their watches. AD's unloading them to secondary dealers is the result of the oversupply. They would much rather sell them retail to individual customers, but those customers are not there in the numbers they need.


I agree and it makes total sense. I have seen a lot of less desirable rolexes for sale through Greys that are NIB.

Now why would a grey dealer be selling so many floral/pink rolexes that are brand new..they had to come from an AD together with the NIB BLROs and Subs


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Old 25 March 2019, 02:07 AM   #34
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I agree and it makes total sense. I have seen a lot of less desirable rolexes for sale through Greys that are NIB.

Now why would a grey dealer be selling so many floral/pink rolexes that are brand new..they had to come from an AD together with the NIB BLROs and Subs


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if they are at a discount people dont care. i will never understand why its an issue when its the watch at a huge premium. Its the same thing... AD to secondary dealer to you
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:07 AM   #35
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This is the best way to turn off the spigots.

Adding to this Rolex can also institute a strict registration regime at the AD point of sale to register every watch sold. Cross referencing the registration data with any warranty repair requests and Rolex will have a very effective control of how its watches flow.
Agree, but one has to wonder why Rolex hasn’t already implemented these straightforward and simple measures. God only knows what Rolex is thinking, but I suspect the current model, and shortages, are working well for them.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:12 AM   #36
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if they are at a discount people dont care. i will never understand why its an issue when its the watch at a huge premium. Its the same thing... AD to secondary dealer to you
I don't understand how anybody can support the Greys at those premiums.Premium is one thing, but 200% more on MRSP ?
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:16 AM   #37
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I don't understand how anybody can support the Greys at those premiums.Premium is one thing, but 200% more on MRSP ?
i dont support them at discounts either. thats the difference IMO

I have an issue when people deal hunt secondary dealers for certain watches and then vilify them when they sell other ones at a premium. They consistently sell at one price.... market price, always

Their behavior discount shopping contributes to the problem of bypassing AD's. buyers are as guilty as anyone.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:20 AM   #38
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You can doubt it, but it is what happens (and it’s not a recent phenomenon). Many here have bought NIB watches from grays that arrive overnight, followed by the documentation days to a week later.

AD holds onto the card, gray sells the watch and provides buyer name to AD. AD fills out the card and sends to gray dealer who sends to buyer. As I mentioned above, this is not a new practice. It’s been happening for many years.
Yup, and there is nothing Rolex can do about this as long as the AD sales model exists. Rolex must also shoulder half the blame for making too many unsaleable Datejusts and other dogshxt models that take months on end for AD's to sell and AD's have to find ways to meet their sales targets and make a buck.

If Rolex is serious about dealing with the AD-Grey nexus situation and alleviating frustration of buyers, then they must be responsive and shift production away from profitable (for Rolex, not AD's) datejusts to models that would make lives of AD's easier. But sadly, Rolex doesn't want to change their ways and they just want to strong-arm AD's, and the market, into submission.

I am waiting to see what the Audemars Piguet official pre-owned program to begin and what it might do to the sub-US$20,000 watch market. But as Mr Bennahmias said, quantities will be low at the beginning and much will depend on the number of pieces they can get, refurbish, and turnaround to the market.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:24 AM   #39
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I am waiting to see what the Audemars Piguet official pre-owned program to begin and what it might do to the sub-US$20,000 watch market. But as Mr Bennahmias said, quantities will be low at the beginning and much will depend on the number of pieces they can get, refurbish, and turnaround to the market.
Interesting !! Tell us more .
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:31 AM   #40
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Yup, and there is nothing Rolex can do about this as long as the AD sales model exists. Rolex must also shoulder half the blame for making too many unsaleable Datejusts and other dogshxt models that take months on end for AD's to sell and AD's have to find ways to meet their sales targets and make a buck.
You are quite detached from the rest of the market.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:33 AM   #41
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Interesting !! Tell us more .
Watch the two-part interview of AP's CEO FH Bennahmias by WatchAdvisor's Alexander Linz at SIHH 2019 on YouTube.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:34 AM   #42
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Rolex has no interest in shutting down the grey market.

They will never officially acknowledge it and will publicly condemn it, but in reality it is an important sales channel for them that also serves a promotion function in their marketing strategy, especially since Rolex has controlled the pricing through limiting distribution on SS sports references.

When the grey market pricing is above retail, the grey market is a manufacturers best buddy, when grey market pricing is much lower than retail, it is an enemy to be feared.

As was stated earlier, the play between relatively low key retail pricing and higher grey market pricing feeds FOMO and that drives sales across the brand. This has been going on with the hypebeast scene for years...it is very, very effective.

As for AD's distributing to the grey market, they most certainly do...in different ways..

There are the scenarios involving "gentleman" or "broski" dealers who sell off their instagram accounts. They don't actually have any of these watches in their hands, but take the order and then get the watch from an AD that they have established a relationship with..in exchange for buying it above retail and passing it on to their "client" or buying some lower popularity models from the AD at a discount to keep their stock moving..

The other model is that the AD is simply a Rolex co-distributor for the grey market. I believe that this is more prevalent in the Asian markets. The AD moves the bulk of their lower priced Rolex references in a big bundle purchase to grey dealer(s). These references are just not worth the AD's time to deal with. The $$$ is too small compared to PM, custom diamond references and their jewelry business to big clients. The lower priced stuff can go to the grey market and let the plebeians and tourists fight over them on the street. No wait lists or hassles to deal with.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:36 AM   #43
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You are quite detached from the rest of the market.
It's the ugly and expensive TT and PM datejusts that cause AD's most grief. They linger in display cases for months. They might be profitable for Rolex to sell, but they are definitely not easy to sell for AD's.
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:44 AM   #44
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You are quite detached from the rest of the market.
DJ sell and are the biggest sellers obviously but they are also oversupplied at the same time. The sheer number of configurations is mind boggling. What you see in an AD which is a lot is probably a small number of what they have to try to sell and they already clearly have plenty. A lot of those get moved to secondary dealers no doubt. a lot of everything does.

No way rolex can actually sell a million watches a year to end customers at retail prices in the current product mix. It isn't happening. But next year those AD's are still getting that million watches worth of production, and the next, and the next, and the next
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:44 AM   #45
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Rolex at some point will die as a brand because of this. Like others said, theirs other good brand out there you can buy without making grey seller rich.
Haha, this is one of the funniest thing I’ve seen on TRF.
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:01 AM   #46
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Haha, this is one of the funniest thing I’ve seen on TRF.
You like it?
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:13 AM   #47
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DJ sell and are the biggest sellers obviously but they are also oversupplied at the same time. The sheer number of configurations is mind boggling. What you see in an AD which is a lot is probably a small number of what they have to try to sell and they already clearly have plenty. A lot of those get moved to secondary dealers no doubt. a lot of everything does.

No way rolex can actually sell a million watches a year to end customers at retail prices in the current product mix. It isn't happening. But next year those AD's are still getting that million watches worth of production, and the next, and the next, and the next
Hongkong is Rolex's dumping ground of choice. Hongkong is a free city with little or no import/export barriers and duties or taxes. Where the watches go after arriving in Hongkong is anybody's guess. But they do go through the local AD's.

A side note, I went through the Hongkong airport five times during the first two months of this year. I really wanted to buy at the airport AD because it will close soon to make way for a Chanel store. But the only Daytona for sale was the ice blue Daytona (it had been there since Christmas and remain unsold as of the 10th March) and countless Dayjusts and Day-dates.
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:21 AM   #48
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Rolex luvs the grey market..even though it pretends not to..lol..
Greedy Rolex..will do anything for cash-ola..anything..
Including artificial promulgation of a "status symbol" and "limited supply"..for the people that will believe such..and pay far over retail ..even though it makes no sense..
Rolex is laughing all the way to the bank..
Sucka's...hahaha...
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:34 AM   #49
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Hongkong is Rolex's dumping ground of choice. Hongkong is a free city with little or no import/export barriers and duties or taxes. Where the watches go after arriving in Hongkong is anybody's guess. But they do go through the local AD's.

A side note, I went through the Hongkong airport five times during the first two months of this year. I really wanted to buy at the airport AD because it will close soon to make way for a Chanel store. But the only Daytona for sale was the ice blue Daytona (it had been there since Christmas and remain unsold as of the 10th March) and countless Dayjusts and Day-dates.
considering it has a population of 8 million and its the largest watch market in the world for exports from switzerland, ahead of the US and China says a lot
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:35 AM   #50
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Rolex luvs the grey market..even though it pretends not to..lol..
Greedy Rolex..will do anything for cash-ola..anything..
Including artificial promulgation of a "status symbol" and "limited supply"..for the people that will believe such..and pay far over retail ..even though it makes no sense..
Rolex is laughing all the way to the bank..
Suckers...hahaha...
I wouldn't exactly sat Rolex 'loves' the greys. More like Rolex allows greys to exist as long as they are under their thumb and serve their purpose. Things are getting a bit out of hand now and order must be restored .
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:44 AM   #51
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considering it has a population of 8 million and its the largest watch market in the world for exports from switzerland, ahead of the US and China says a lot
Hongkong has always been the regional distribution hub for luxury goods. Many Rolex and Tudors go out the back door of local AD's to greys all over Asia.

I remember seeing the sheer number of Hongkong-sourced BNIB Daytona C and other hot models for sale at grey dealers at Nakano Broadway in Tokyo made me sick. I'm glad Japanese customs have begun to crack down on this recently.
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:45 AM   #52
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You can doubt it, but it is what happens (and it’s not a recent phenomenon). Many here have bought NIB watches from grays that arrive overnight, followed by the documentation days to a week later.

AD holds onto the card, gray sells the watch and provides buyer name to AD. AD fills out the card and sends to gray dealer who sends to buyer. As I mentioned above, this is not a new practice. It’s been happening for many years.
Huh, I was wondering how the Grey dealer offered to do that. When I stopped by he asked what I was looking for. I mentioned a sub and blue dial DJ 41 with Fluted bezel. He pulls up a pic of the DJ and says "this one?" I assented. He says he can get it NIB fairly quickly. I said if I buy new I'd want my name on warrant card. Shady dude replies immediately "that's no problem." I am still new to this so I stopped there and figured there was something I was missing. I guess I was missing the back room deal between Grey and AD?!

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Old 25 March 2019, 03:49 AM   #53
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I wouldn't exactly sat Rolex 'loves' the greys. More like Rolex allows greys to exist as long as they are under their thumb and serve their purpose. Things are getting a bit out of hand now and order must be restored .
Kind of reminds me how pirates were tolerated back in the Golden Age of Piracy.
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Old 25 March 2019, 03:53 AM   #54
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Hongkong has always been the regional distribution hub for luxury goods. Many Rolex and Tudors go out the back door of local AD's to greys all over Asia.

I remember seeing the sheer number of Hongkong-sourced BNIB Daytona C and other hot models for sale at grey dealers at Nakano Broadway in Tokyo made me sick. I'm glad Japanese customs have begun to crack down on this recently.
just saying it doesnt take a genius to figure out that more watches are going into the population base than that population can consume on their own.

Its like saying the IRS wouldn't notice if i claimed 200k in charitable contributions on a 75k salary. Its impossible

those watches go somewhere for sure and always have. They also have a wealthy population who buys a lot of watches, but its not that big

this entire grey market argument then hinges on Rolex in Geneva not thinking something is off with these numbers. HK is the most obvious example because of its small population and huge amount of watches going there.
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Old 25 March 2019, 06:09 AM   #55
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No one cared two years ago when even subs didn't move quickly and secondary dealers sold those at a discount too. The practice is the same as always the only difference is some sell at a premium now

Rolex is the one oversupplying AD's with watches they have a hard time selling. So how else do they get rid of them?
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Old 25 March 2019, 06:29 AM   #56
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Maybe naive on my side but always thought it was flippers supplying the Grey market .

Friday had a discussion with a Pre-owned/Secondary market dealer .Non Rolex related.Looking at purchasing another brand,bnib at below new AD cost and not obtainable from the AD.I did try the ADs for that brand.

It did come up ...they do get their ss sports model Rolex stock directly from ADs.The point made were that ADs will not sell the blro,as an example, at mrsp if they can get more for it from a Grey dealer.

I was rather shocked by this.

Question: Why then not sell it at higher than MRSP to the client ??

I really think Rolex need to have a serious look into their MRSP on the ss sports models.It needs to be increased.

The ADs will get in serious trouble if Rolex know that they are selling their watches above MSRP. Grey suppliers don't leave paper trials. They pay cash and no receipts needed. They also buy a lot of non popular models along with the hot ones. They help the ADs free up their inventory and cash flow. The ADs can make up the receipts under fake names for just in case they get audit from Rolex.
As regular consumers. We will require the receipt for the exact amount pay for insurance purposes and among other things. Hope this answers your questions.
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Old 25 March 2019, 07:44 AM   #57
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ADs supplying the Grey dealers

As an exercise, I’d suggest folks call dealers for AP, Patek, Richard Mille and ask them to buy a very desirable watch now or soon and see what happens.

Now that you’ve confirmed for yourself that this is not a Rolex/gray market/evil trusted sellers issue - it exists across all popular luxury watch brands...

Repeat the experiment by calling all the Hermès dealers you can find, and ask them to buy a Birkin or Kelly in desirable leather/color and see what happens...

Now we’ve confirmed it spans multiple areas of fashion/jewelry.

Repeat by calling Porsche, Ferrari, etc and ask them to by a desirable/new release model...

Now you better understand the luxury market.

Finally, before writing a long whining diatribe about how the world is so unfair to you, the maligned luxury product would-be buyer, spend a few minutes considering that you’re not being denied food, shelter, clothing or other necessities. Your outrage is about a luxury bauble.

Now you hopefully have gained some reasonable perspective.
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Old 25 March 2019, 11:53 AM   #58
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As an exercise, I’d suggest folks call dealers for AP, Patek, Richard Mille and ask them to buy a very desirable watch now or soon and see what happens.

Now that you’ve confirmed for yourself that this is not a Rolex/gray market/evil trusted sellers issue - it exists across all popular luxury watch brands...

Repeat the experiment by calling all the Hermès dealers you can find, and ask them to buy a Birkin or Kelly in desirable leather/color and see what happens...

Now we’ve confirmed it spans multiple areas of fashion/jewelry.

Repeat by calling Porsche, Ferrari, etc and ask them to by a desirable/new release model...

Now you better understand the luxury market.

Finally, before writing a long whining diatribe about how the world is so unfair to you, the maligned luxury product would-be buyer, spend a few minutes considering that you’re not being denied food, shelter, clothing or other necessities. Your outrage is about a luxury bauble.

Now you hopefully have gained some reasonable perspective.
Rolex is not AP, Patek, or Richard Mille is it? And Rolex is definitely not a Hermes Birkin or Kelly.

Rolex is also not Porsche or Ferrari. Rolex is Mercedes-AMG at best.

But yes, what we are facing is an existential first world problem : )
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Old 25 March 2019, 01:48 PM   #59
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Rolex has no interest in shutting down the grey market.

They will never officially acknowledge it and will publicly condemn it, but in reality it is an important sales channel for them that also serves a promotion function in their marketing strategy, especially since Rolex has controlled the pricing through limiting distribution on SS sports references.

When the grey market pricing is above retail, the grey market is a manufacturers best buddy, when grey market pricing is much lower than retail, it is an enemy to be feared.

As was stated earlier, the play between relatively low key retail pricing and higher grey market pricing feeds FOMO and that drives sales across the brand. This has been going on with the hypebeast scene for years...it is very, very effective.

As for AD's distributing to the grey market, they most certainly do...in different ways..

There are the scenarios involving "gentleman" or "broski" dealers who sell off their instagram accounts. They don't actually have any of these watches in their hands, but take the order and then get the watch from an AD that they have established a relationship with..in exchange for buying it above retail and passing it on to their "client" or buying some lower popularity models from the AD at a discount to keep their stock moving..

The other model is that the AD is simply a Rolex co-distributor for the grey market. I believe that this is more prevalent in the Asian markets. The AD moves the bulk of their lower priced Rolex references in a big bundle purchase to grey dealer(s). These references are just not worth the AD's time to deal with. The $$$ is too small compared to PM, custom diamond references and their jewelry business to big clients. The lower priced stuff can go to the grey market and let the plebeians and tourists fight over them on the street. No wait lists or hassles to deal with.


Nailed it
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Old 25 March 2019, 02:11 PM   #60
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it sucks to be new to Rolex, or Patek, or AP at the moment. I wouldn't start now if i was in the market for my first watch. no way.
10000% agreed. If it was like this in the 1990s I'd probably done more car stuff. For me, most exciting thing of 2019 is the Seiko Alpinist. Weird, right? Rolex seriously needs to reconsider a small part of their business model away from dealers and go direct for certain pieces. I know that might sound a little crazy, yet we live in crazy times for mechanical timepieces. JMHO
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“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'Wow! What a Ride!'” -- Hunter S. Thompson

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