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Old 16 September 2022, 04:47 PM   #31
jts278
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That's interesting to hear. Hope that one of the reallocated 50th pieces makes it on my wrist
Now’s the time to go chat with your SA to remind them you’re interested.
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Old 16 September 2022, 08:10 PM   #32
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AP wants clients that can buy 4-5 pieces, not someone who will be one and done. That's why you can't get a RO
That's a pretty cringeworthy statement tbh.

1) AP is practically a one design company, that for some reason (IG fame) has been in the general public's spotlight the last few years. They add complications and change case sizes, that's it. So if you can't get a RO, you can't get an AP.

2) While I agree with you on the fact, that AP wants people who buy multiple watches in their time with the brand, as a luxury brand they do not necessarily want customers to buy 4-5 pieces a year. From a corporate standpoint because of 1) AP probably also wants to grow their customer base. Reason for this being, that once the hype ebbs down they have a better chance of retaining at least some clients who stay with the brand.

I am pretty sure that AP Le Brassus isn't happy about clients receiving 4-5 pieces a year while others are shunned in the process. Depending on AP Singapore's short term strategy (most probably to maximize profits) they might see things differently. For AP itself it's not good news if someone receives 4-5 pieces a year, especially when they would be able to sell 2-3 to other clients in no time.

Even if the customer is the biggest whale in the sea, it's still bad business from a long term perspective. Once he moves on (and in most cases he will) he will be lost as a brand advocate for AP as well. That's not to say that the member here who has received 4 pieces this year isn't generally interested in AP, but I'm sure he's not the only one who has been allocated such an amount by the respective boutique in such a short period of time.

AP Singapore SAs or other affiliates who do business like this should probably have a look at how well business is going at Panerai atm. And Panerai never snubbed their customers to that degree as far as I'm aware.

Here in Europe SAs are even telling you as much. They want to build a loyal customer base and therefore they tell you straightforward, that you won't be able to purchase everything that comes to your mind immediately, regardless of the fact, that you could spend the money right away. I don't like the hassle to get a watch allocated here either, but at least it's not totally dishonest.
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Old 17 September 2022, 12:12 AM   #33
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Just to add to all the comments above, I heard that some of the 50th anniversary pieces as well as other AP pieces originally destined for other markets have been reallocated to the Asian markets because much fewer boutique and house customers in Asia are flipping their pieces. AP actively monitors the secondary market and as a result are favoring markets where there are fewer flippers. In the end, I agree that each 50th RO should go to a customer who appreciates the piece and respects the brand. As a result, we have been seeing more incomings here. My friend is picking up his 50th ROC today even though at the beginning of the year he was not sure if he would get allocated one.
I like the fact that with AP you log onto your account and your watches are displayed there and then. Unlike say Rolex that doesn’t have any online account. With Rolex anyone can buy one and flip one straight away and the only way an AD would know about it, would be if the new buyer contacted the AD (or Rolex direct) that originally sold it.

With AP, I guess a buyer of a flipped watch would want to register that for themselves so I’m guessing AP find out it’s been sold?

I realise that money is money and making a profit is all some people care about, but for me I was so happy to get a 50th, selling it just wouldn’t enter my mind. AP House London and Vanessa in particular have been superb to me and I’d feel I was doing a dirty, so what you’ve said about reallocating watches to areas that don’t flip as much makes sense.
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Old 17 September 2022, 12:12 AM   #34
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That's a pretty cringeworthy statement tbh.

1) AP is practically a one design company, that for some reason (IG fame) has been in the general public's spotlight the last few years. They add complications and change case sizes, that's it. So if you can't get a RO, you can't get an AP.
I truly believe that anyone who sincerely believes this isn't ready for an AP. The changes are FAR beyond just complications and sizes. Yes, they're dimunitive changes, but they're important and that's the point. It's no different than the iterative nuances you see with Rolex, but frankly so few other brands. Along the same lines of thinking, if anyone thinks AP = RO = 1 hit wonder, then they truly don't understand the horology behind the brand, the crudo, nor the historical significance of not just the RO but dozens of other horological contributions from AP - most notably in ultra-thin watchmaking. Not to mention, AP's case finishing is basically in a class of its own (rivalled perhaps only by Patek, if you're a purist).
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Old 17 September 2022, 12:18 AM   #35
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Even if the customer is the biggest whale in the sea, it's still bad business from a long term perspective. Once he moves on (and in most cases he will) he will be lost as a brand advocate for AP as well. That's not to say that the member here who has received 4 pieces this year isn't generally interested in AP, but I'm sure he's not the only one who has been allocated such an amount by the respective boutique in such a short period of time.
Disagree with basically everything you said, other than the direct reply to the tuna.

In particular, it seems to me that the likelihood of a long-term client sticking around for an uncertain future is much greater than for those swept up by the recent hype. Long-term client's have demonstrated that they will buy watches that do not appreciate by a factor of x2-3 the moment they walk out the door - that is a complete unknown for the IG generation of clients. In fact, reports are that AP's experiment of allocating some fraction of the 50th anniversary production to new clients turned into a flipping bonanza.
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Old 17 September 2022, 02:50 AM   #36
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I truly believe that anyone who sincerely believes this isn't ready for an AP. The changes are FAR beyond just complications and sizes. Yes, they're dimunitive changes, but they're important and that's the point. It's no different than the iterative nuances you see with Rolex, but frankly so few other brands. Along the same lines of thinking, if anyone thinks AP = RO = 1 hit wonder, then they truly don't understand the horology behind the brand, the crudo, nor the historical significance of not just the RO but dozens of other horological contributions from AP - most notably in ultra-thin watchmaking. Not to mention, AP's case finishing is basically in a class of its own (rivalled perhaps only by Patek, if you're a purist).
despite AP being famous off the RO i agree that it's unfair to label them a 1 hit wonder just because a majority of their brand revolves around that line. i don't want AP to be releasing a bunch of different watches. omega does that and in the biggest watch bubble they somehow weren't even able to benefit from it. i think what AP is doing is perfect. minor incremental but noticeable changes to the simpler ROs and then different ways to present their engineering and watches as art with the skeletons/tourbillions/ultra thins/etc

they've expanded into another market with the code line, that's more than enough for a while. they didn't even need to do that because they're cemented in history with what they did with the RO line and how it saved the mechanical luxury watch market

people praise rolex's lineup and the fact that they continue to make very minor changes but when you look at it rolex has 3 designs. the classic "dressy" watches with a fluted bezel, ceramic divers/gmts with rotating bezels that all basically look the same except for the colors of the bezels and the daytona. they're not exactly crazy diverse either lol
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Old 17 September 2022, 03:51 AM   #37
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people praise rolex's lineup and the fact that they continue to make very minor changes but when you look at it rolex has 3 designs. the classic "dressy" watches with a fluted bezel, ceramic divers/gmts with rotating bezels that all basically look the same except for the colors of the bezels and the daytona. they're not exactly crazy diverse either lol
Totally agree, and it’s funny that Rolex doesn’t get the same flack as AP in this regard. Look at the oyster case - it’s used in virtually all models (DD, DJ, OP, Daytona) except for the GMT and sub.

I’d also note, there’s nothing wrong with this. It’s a mechanical watch - a relic from the past (that hopefully most people on this forum appreciate). IMO there’s no need to go crazy on the iterations/models. Stick to what works.
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Old 17 September 2022, 04:27 AM   #38
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In a Rolex forum of all places is a funny location to criticize the lineup of AP designs for diversity. They're in the business of fortifying the longevity of the brand, maximizing long term relationship with brand collectors. Seems like the current demand is beyond their capacity to produce across all the product lines, so I'd say its successful.

Sometimes a brand's direction is not congruent with a segment of collectors and their set of beliefs. And that's OK.
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Old 17 September 2022, 05:40 AM   #39
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The price increase was minimal on RO and ROC SS, about 3% correct? I've expressed my interest in a ROC since late 2018 and have been on the list since. I don't really care for a 50th or not so have the patience to wait into next year.

At that point I may just be blunt and say 'I really want to establish a long relationship with the brand. At this point I may purchase in the secondary market but my hope is to purchase through the boutique and more over the years'.
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Old 17 September 2022, 06:13 AM   #40
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[QUOTE=VogelPhoenix;12380683]Disagree with basically everything you said, other than the direct reply to the tuna.


I think Tuna is just bitter about not getting an allocation...
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Old 17 September 2022, 11:16 PM   #41
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I truly believe that anyone who sincerely believes this isn't ready for an AP. The changes are FAR beyond just complications and sizes. Yes, they're dimunitive changes, but they're important and that's the point. It's no different than the iterative nuances you see with Rolex, but frankly so few other brands. Along the same lines of thinking, if anyone thinks AP = RO = 1 hit wonder, then they truly don't understand the horology behind the brand, the crudo, nor the historical significance of not just the RO but dozens of other horological contributions from AP - most notably in ultra-thin watchmaking. Not to mention, AP's case finishing is basically in a class of its own (rivalled perhaps only by Patek, if you're a purist).
I'm not talking about the history behind AP. AP has contributed to watchmaking significantly and there is a good reason why they are considered a holy trinity company.

Actually that's exactly what I was getting to with this statement. AP does have plenty history apart from the RO, but for some reason they seem to be ignoring everything apart from Genta's design, much to the frustration of people sincerely interested in the company itself.

Atm AP has basically nothing to offer apart from RO based designs. Even the concept range has a hard time differantiating itself from an Offshore. The Code to me personally is just a joke, but to each his own. Market seems to agree with someone around here suggesting that only about 10 percent of all AP watches are Codes. And even for these few models, they basically had to force clients to buy one for the longest time. Once things cool down, I don't believe they will be selling any more.

Since the cancellation of the Jules Audemars range the company does not even offer a dress watch range. Imo AP could easily sift through their archives and come up with innovative designs based on historical references. PP and VC do that masterfully, why can't AP?

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Disagree with basically everything you said, other than the direct reply to the tuna.

In particular, it seems to me that the likelihood of a long-term client sticking around for an uncertain future is much greater than for those swept up by the recent hype. Long-term client's have demonstrated that they will buy watches that do not appreciate by a factor of x2-3 the moment they walk out the door - that is a complete unknown for the IG generation of clients. In fact, reports are that AP's experiment of allocating some fraction of the 50th anniversary production to new clients turned into a flipping bonanza.
I can't see where we are in disagreement. That's what I am suggesting.

AP should not be happy with SAs allocating 4-5 pieces a year to the same customer, because let's be honest, at that rate there won't be much left for him to aspire to after 2-3 years. Imo AP should rather be focusing on creating a loyal customer base through allocating 1-2 pieces to existing clients and those interested they do not deem flippers. They would then be able to offer each more and more complicated (and expensive) pieces in the years to come, keeping both whales and new clients happy.
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Old 18 September 2022, 05:30 AM   #42
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AP wants clients that can buy 4-5 pieces, not someone who will be one and done. That's why you can't get a RO
No, No, NO, I think you have it all wrong. They want someone that CAN buy 40-50+ pieces per year but doesn't get upset when they only get to buy 1-4 per year. The mortals that can only buy 4-5 per annum need not apply. All the super likeable people getting offered 50th's on first piece not withstanding!
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Old 18 September 2022, 05:41 AM   #43
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Imo AP could easily sift through their archives and come up with innovative designs based on historical references. PP and VC do that masterfully, why can't AP?


This particular point is one reason I’m GLAD AP isn’t doing the same crap PP is doing. PP forces you to buy annual calendars and stuff you don’t want. And there are tons of stuff I don’t want just to get to an aquanaut or Nautilus. Makes no sense.

At least with AP the code is a nice watch - and I wasn’t forced to buy one either. Though out of my own desire to collect I would be down for a CODE at some point.

With PP, I was asked to buy an annual calendar, a chrono, a perpetual calendar - what? I don’t want or need 3-4 PP on leather straps. I dislike leather anyways and always prefer bracelet or at least rubber straps.

I’m happy AP is producing more desirable sport models in the iconic case design - whether it’s concept or offshore or royal oak - at least I like and want those.
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Old 18 September 2022, 10:03 AM   #44
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AP wants clients that can buy 4-5 pieces, not someone who will be one and done. That's why you can't get a RO
Actually as APWhale said I do have 4 ROs and a Code including the first 15510ST my boutique received. So I am all set. But thanks for your concern.
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Old 18 September 2022, 10:11 AM   #45
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Only if our friend can provide some other metric showing that the US have a relatively larger share in the overall ultra-luxury watch market ;)

I'm sure AP could sell much more in the US, but there are a lot of long-time big and really big collectors in Asia they want to keep happy.
Your numbers do not disprove what I said. Your numbers just enforces what I said and show that AP chooses to ignore the US market. It has been mentioned ad nauseam on hodinkee and many other watch blogs that the US market alternates between 1st and 2nd spot for the past few years for the swiss watch industry. If AP chooses to sell less watches in the US there that's something they chose to do so I am not sure how your statistic disapproves of what I said.
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Old 18 September 2022, 10:39 AM   #46
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This particular point is one reason I’m GLAD AP isn’t doing the same crap PP is doing. PP forces you to buy annual calendars and stuff you don’t want. And there are tons of stuff I don’t want just to get to an aquanaut or Nautilus. Makes no sense.

At least with AP the code is a nice watch - and I wasn’t forced to buy one either. Though out of my own desire to collect I would be down for a CODE at some point.

With PP, I was asked to buy an annual calendar, a chrono, a perpetual calendar - what? I don’t want or need 3-4 PP on leather straps. I dislike leather anyways and always prefer bracelet or at least rubber straps.

I’m happy AP is producing more desirable sport models in the iconic case design - whether it’s concept or offshore or royal oak - at least I like and want those.
I'm glad its working out for you but I feel like the complete opposite - don't understand why you think everyone is forced to buy classic pieces from patek in order to get "ahead" but buying a code is so much different - code is not great but an ok watch thats overpriced imo - it's just a matter of preference and what you want.

I dont think there are any watches to built a relationship with AP / dont like code, used to own an ROO and ROC so what else was I supposed to buy? a diver maybe and then - everything that's desirable from AP aka ceramic pieces, tourbillons or skeleton pieces are not available. I keep seeing the same watches being released with marginal updates at least patek has variety.
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Old 18 September 2022, 10:46 AM   #47
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I am a big AP fan but I agree with @dauster. AP's catalogue is severely lacking compared to PP and VC. I think it's inexcusable that AP does not have a proper dress line like the calatrava and patrimony/traditionelle. Also some middle of the road complications such as annual/complete calendars, dual times, dead beat seconds etc would be a welcome addition to the catalogue.
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Old 18 September 2022, 12:10 PM   #48
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This particular point is one reason I’m GLAD AP isn’t doing the same crap PP is doing. PP forces you to buy annual calendars and stuff you don’t want. And there are tons of stuff I don’t want just to get to an aquanaut or Nautilus. Makes no sense.

At least with AP the code is a nice watch - and I wasn’t forced to buy one either. Though out of my own desire to collect I would be down for a CODE at some point.

With PP, I was asked to buy an annual calendar, a chrono, a perpetual calendar - what? I don’t want or need 3-4 PP on leather straps. I dislike leather anyways and always prefer bracelet or at least rubber straps.

I’m happy AP is producing more desirable sport models in the iconic case design - whether it’s concept or offshore or royal oak - at least I like and want those.
Same sentiments.
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Old 18 September 2022, 03:10 PM   #49
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I'm glad its working out for you but I feel like the complete opposite - don't understand why you think everyone is forced to buy classic pieces from patek in order to get "ahead" but buying a code is so much different - code is not great but an ok watch thats overpriced imo - it's just a matter of preference and what you want.

I dont think there are any watches to built a relationship with AP / dont like code, used to own an ROO and ROC so what else was I supposed to buy? a diver maybe and then - everything that's desirable from AP aka ceramic pieces, tourbillons or skeleton pieces are not available. I keep seeing the same watches being released with marginal updates at least patek has variety.

You’re telling me I can get an aquanaut or nautilus (I don’t care which reference I would take any reference from those lines) without having to buy pieces from their dress watch lineup? You’re kidding right?

If you do know an AD of PP that would allow me to get any aquanaut or any nautilus references please let me know.
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Old 18 September 2022, 03:59 PM   #50
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You’re telling me I can get an aquanaut or nautilus (I don’t care which reference I would take any reference from those lines) without having to buy pieces from their dress watch lineup? You’re kidding right?

If you do know an AD of PP that would allow me to get any aquanaut or any nautilus references please let me know.

It’s not happening without buying multiple dress watches. Was flat out told that by my AD


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Old 18 September 2022, 07:07 PM   #51
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It’s not happening without buying multiple dress watches. Was flat out told that by my AD


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This. Hence I don’t have a PP and don’t bother w them anymore.


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Old 19 September 2022, 01:29 AM   #52
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You’re telling me I can get an aquanaut or nautilus (I don’t care which reference I would take any reference from those lines) without having to buy pieces from their dress watch lineup? You’re kidding right?

If you do know an AD of PP that would allow me to get any aquanaut or any nautilus references please let me know.

No I said nobody is forced to do anything and it’s subjective - one thinks a code a is cool watch maybe followed buy a diver and others prefer to buy Patek dress watches.

I’d rather buy a Patek dress watch than a code for example - 6119 vs code not even a question imo but since you seem to like AP and only want Patek sports watches just stick with AP…

Lastly, I pointed out that there is no ladder to climb for AP in terms of progressively buying watches because they do not have enough variety unless you get to the interesting pieces that are reserved for the VIPs.


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Old 19 September 2022, 05:09 AM   #53
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I'm glad its working out for you but I feel like the complete opposite - don't understand why you think everyone is forced to buy classic pieces from patek in order to get "ahead" but buying a code is so much different - code is not great but an ok watch thats overpriced imo - it's just a matter of preference and what you want.

I dont think there are any watches to built a relationship with AP / dont like code, used to own an ROO and ROC so what else was I supposed to buy? a diver maybe and then - everything that's desirable from AP aka ceramic pieces, tourbillons or skeleton pieces are not available. I keep seeing the same watches being released with marginal updates at least patek has variety.
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No I said nobody is forced to do anything and it’s subjective - one thinks a code a is cool watch maybe followed buy a diver and others prefer to buy Patek dress watches.

I’d rather buy a Patek dress watch than a code for example - 6119 vs code not even a question imo but since you seem to like AP and only want Patek sports watches just stick with AP…

Lastly, I pointed out that there is no ladder to climb for AP in terms of progressively buying watches because they do not have enough variety unless you get to the interesting pieces that are reserved for the VIPs.


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I actually tend to agree with these takes. Although I have no experience with Patek ADs as I deal with a Salon, overall buying a Code vs buying non Nautilus/Aquanaut Pateks is pretty much the same thing in the majority of cases. I just happen to like the Code line and while I wouldn't call them overpriced, they are certainly not far away. With AP you might be one Code away from a RO, with Patek, with the exception of a Salon, you're probably more than one Calatrava away from a Nautilus.
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Old 19 September 2022, 05:30 AM   #54
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This. Hence I don’t have a PP and don’t bother w them anymore.


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Same here.

I’ve had the PP journey laid out to me and with time lines too. But I’m not buying 2 watches that I have zero interest in owning (and at a cost of c. £55k) just to be considered to wait 5-10 years for the 3/4 new PP I would like to own.

Sorry, that’s not a game that I’ve played in 30+ years of buying nice watches and I’m pleased to say not something that AP House here in the Uk play either.

Life is too short to play such games and if that means I’m not buying any new PP then, you know what, I’ll live and I’m sure the AD, Boutiques and PP will too. For me AP are vastly superior watches in terms of engineering, style, finish and heritage too
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Old 19 September 2022, 09:44 AM   #55
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Same here.

I’ve had the PP journey laid out to me and with time lines too. But I’m not buying 2 watches that I have zero interest in owning (and at a cost of c. £55k) just to be considered to wait 5-10 years for the 3/4 new PP I would like to own.

Sorry, that’s not a game that I’ve played in 30+ years of buying nice watches and I’m pleased to say not something that AP House here in the Uk play either.

Life is too short to play such games and if that means I’m not buying any new PP then, you know what, I’ll live and I’m sure the AD, Boutiques and PP will too. For me AP are vastly superior watches in terms of engineering, style, finish and heritage too
Well said, same here!
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Old 19 September 2022, 09:55 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by jts278 View Post
Just to add to all the comments above, I heard that some of the 50th anniversary pieces as well as other AP pieces originally destined for other markets have been reallocated to the Asian markets because much fewer boutique and house customers in Asia are flipping their pieces. AP actively monitors the secondary market and as a result are favoring markets where there are fewer flippers. In the end, I agree that each 50th RO should go to a customer who appreciates the piece and respects the brand. As a result, we have been seeing more incomings here. My friend is picking up his 50th ROC today even though at the beginning of the year he was not sure if he would get allocated one.
This seems like BS. Seems more the asian market is the one flipping the watches. There are so many 50th anniversary watches on the grey market in America. But barely anyone has been given allocations in America for a lot of the ones showing up in the grey market. I think those in Asia are the one selling to grey's in America.
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Old 19 September 2022, 10:03 AM   #57
911AP
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I am a big AP fan but I agree with @dauster. AP's catalogue is severely lacking compared to PP and VC. I think it's inexcusable that AP does not have a proper dress line like the calatrava and patrimony/traditionelle. Also some middle of the road complications such as annual/complete calendars, dual times, dead beat seconds etc would be a welcome addition to the catalogue.
Since everyone is stating AP is a one hit wonder I think that is because of the lack of diversification across the models. They used to do a lot more. For instance RM doesn't usually receive this critique even though all their watches pretty much look the same.

AP needs to bring back forged carbon, ceramic, etc... in the offshore line and the diver line. They used to make such interesting watches in all those other lines. Same with the concept line. They are completely neglecting practically the other lines in favor of the codes (which honestly suck except for the most expensive ones), and the RO.

I still remember the millenary carbon one was an awesome watch. I really don't know why they discontinued that line. The Jules audemar line had potential as a dress watch, but only their tourbillon pieces were something special.
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Old 19 September 2022, 12:02 PM   #58
VogelPhoenix
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Originally Posted by 911AP View Post
This seems like BS. Seems more the asian market is the one flipping the watches. There are so many 50th anniversary watches on the grey market in America. But barely anyone has been given allocations in America for a lot of the ones showing up in the grey market. I think those in Asia are the one selling to grey's in America.
Well, one would think that AP has a better sense of who's flipping their allocations than most TRF posters (given that the watches are registered to the original buyer).
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Old 19 September 2022, 12:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 911AP View Post
AP needs to bring back forged carbon, ceramic, etc... in the offshore line and the diver line. They used to make such interesting watches in all those other lines. Same with the concept line. They are completely neglecting practically the other lines in favor of the codes (which honestly suck except for the most expensive ones), and the RO.
I want a new CE diver or CE offshore chrono as much as the next guy, but in the last four years AP has launched the CODE, updated the diver, introduced the 43mm ROOs and updated the entire RO lineup, while managing the RO 50th and that pandemic thing. So it's not like they've been sitting on their hands, and I have high hopes that more will come next year for the 30th anniversary of the ROO.
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Old 19 September 2022, 12:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 911AP View Post
This seems like BS. Seems more the asian market is the one flipping the watches. There are so many 50th anniversary watches on the grey market in America. But barely anyone has been given allocations in America for a lot of the ones showing up in the grey market. I think those in Asia are the one selling to grey's in America.
Not trying to cause any anger or arguments. This info is just something I’ve heard and confirmed with my boutique. I wasn’t being too specific on the geographies but for example Asia is a big place, I’m sure AP knows which markets are flipping the 50th pieces and which ones are not based on their online registry. I can say that HK is one of those places which really has fewer flippers and has been receiving more 50th allocations. I’m sure the US is one of the biggest markets for AP so I’m not sure why you think that there are barely any allocations there, but I’d be happy to learn more from you.
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