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Old 30 November 2011, 02:46 AM   #61
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Krone, thank you for a fantastic and well thought out response! You sure took the time, my goodness man.

The hairspring situation is indeed my situation as it looks to be off center towards the right now. That might explain my beat error and the graph of the two lines.. the top one is breaking the bottom is solid. So I am guessing it's banking too far in one direction.. the hair spring that is/balance wheel.

Rikki mentioned that screw on the balance bridge, is this a viable way to recenter that spring? I've not yet tried it.. but looking forward to it. I fathom I'll have to readjust everything after that.. hah.
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Old 30 November 2011, 02:47 AM   #62
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I have used a regular digital camera on macro mode and gotten some great shots.

The screw just needs to be a little loose don't take it out and don't forget to tighten it again. Then the stud rotates around the jewel setting, with some friction, so brace yourself against slipping off and hitting something else. Maybe use something metal that will not flex not the plastic pick. Generally i use the screwdriver I loosen the screw with. It might take going one way then the other a couple times.
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Old 30 November 2011, 03:20 AM   #63
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Krone, I was rereading your post, I'm going to attempt to adjust the end of the hairspring with that arm later tonight.

I think my Microstella wrench is sticking inside. Even with a steady hand the index pointer will stop rolling and suddenly fall forward as if it did not have free movement. I am keeping it level and even as well, rolling it slowly.

I suppose I may need to get a new wrench, which is disappointing. This one seems to be closed in acrylic and even if I wanted to oil it.. I can not but the looks of it.
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Old 30 November 2011, 12:55 PM   #64
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OK folks, so I dove back in and decided I'd just go for beat error down and leave the gain and loss alone. Plus the Microstella is still on fire from the first assault... so that can rest.

The results were FANTASTIC. I was amazed at how much control I had over the hair spring without having to attempt to bend it into shape or remove it from the watch. That screw on the balance bridge and the bracket that supports the top of the balance [What do you call the part where the jewel is that swivels?] was loosened and I obtained an amazing level of near granular control over the beat error, as Rikki/Krone taught me.

Without readjusting the nuts I ended up with the following interesting results:
KEY:Rate/Amplitude/Error
Face up:+5/266/0.0
Crown up:+1/250/0.0
Crown sideways standing on the lugs rightsideup:+1/250/0.0
Crown down:+11/259/0.2
Face down:+8/262/0.0

So what do you guys think about the results before I go back in to regulate with the wrench?

Misadventures this time: I dropped the bridge screw INTO the balance wheel... But all seems ok.. then the little bracket that is held down by that screw shot into space because of the pressure on my tweezers it flipped.. and off it went! i spent more time looking for that then adjusting the bloody balance.

Again, this was amazing to see the twin lines become one as the balance was rectified. [Is poised the right term there, brought back into?]
Check out the unified timing results [What I modified, Before, After]:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3367.jpg (117.8 KB, 1278 views)
File Type: jpg Before.JPG (101.5 KB, 1272 views)
File Type: jpg Adter.JPG (98.0 KB, 1270 views)
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Old 30 November 2011, 02:40 PM   #65
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I am re4ally "digging" this thread...keep up the good work :)
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Old 30 November 2011, 06:33 PM   #66
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Great work! Really interesting thread, you got more balls than me :)
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Old 1 December 2011, 04:22 AM   #67
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The bridge screw for the beat adjustment only needs to be loosened not removed just 1/2 or 3/4 of a turn is all you need to be able to move the stud arm. Keep it going Rikki
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Old 1 December 2011, 10:39 AM   #68
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I see Rikki, I guess they call that (Rolex part #3135-451) 'Bridle for stud support'. I printed out a Rolex part book and thumbed through looking for the bugger.

I was not sure how it secured the stud, so I removed it fully to see the mechanics. You did say to loosen it above, but I was just curious.. and my reward was chasing it around the office.
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Old 1 December 2011, 11:07 AM   #69
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The bridle is friction fit to the balance bridge and the screw and small clamp is only so the watch if bumped will not lose it's beat error.. When I do the adjusting I don't look at the lines I look at the distance travelled by the top of the tool and my fingers remember the distance for the opposite screw. You need to pay more attention to the tool's orientation being level to the movement than looping it and looking at the lines,when you do that you lose control of depth perception and orientation and that's when things break. I have serviced over 12,000 Rolex's and never broke a balance with a timing tool. It is as much about technique as it is anything else. When centering a hairspring you want the coils to be even on all sides also flat on the plane if tilted the hairspring could possibly hit one of the arms of the balance throwing off amplitude and just about everthing else. The timing should be done movement out of the case it's just easier and safer to get the tools where they need to be. Keep it going Rikki
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Old 1 December 2011, 12:32 PM   #70
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Hm, great info. I am fairly confident my balance does not. 'look' center under the balance bridge. But I figured I was able to compensate with the beat error adjustment.

Hmm , do you use a timing computer with the movement out as well? I'll try and snap a better picture. I find your experience absolutely amazing Rikki. I feel like a caveman banging on a rock standing next to you my friend haha.

Again, thanks for your expertise and time. Helps a lot.
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Old 1 December 2011, 12:34 PM   #71
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My beat error is still 0 but the watch is running a little fast. I have not gone back in yet to adjust.
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Old 1 December 2011, 12:48 PM   #72
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great thread! really enjoying it
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Old 1 December 2011, 11:53 PM   #73
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The hairspring may not look centered under the balance bridge because of the shape of the balance bridge the coils need to be spaced evenly in a concentric circle so it breathes in and out evenly. See if the hairspring coil on one side is to close to the second coil in as the hairspring expands and contracts it can rub on itself and cause knocking and amplitude problems not to mention trying to time it false readings all the way. Also what can happen is if there is any residual oil or contamination on any of the coils if they get too close together they can and will stick to eachother through surface tension this will cause a rapid speedup of the watch and make it impossible to time without one dipping and reoiling the balance jewels. So when you take a top down view of the hairspring look at the outer coil and the one next to it they should be evenly spaced all around. The eta movement has an adjuster on the balance bridge for hairsping centering that works great but it is not a freesprung hairspring it has a regulator. Keep up coming. Rikki
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Old 2 December 2011, 02:58 AM   #74
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I'll be sure to take a look at the individual sections of the hairspring. I was reading about some of the above in a few different watch making books. I feel powerless to combat some of the stuff especially when it comes to oiling. I need to purchase a few different oils for rolex and also get a ultra sonic cleaner.

Am I right to assume when oiling it's best to strip the old oils off and start from the ground up? I can only imagine the technique involved in oiling. Just holding an oiler in my hand gives me a sense of the what kind of mastery would be required to make sure the oil is even and goes just where it needs to be.

I would be willing to bet that people new to the watch repair world [points to his name tag] would put a lower precedence on really learning about the oil properties and required technique. The thought of a jewel cutting through a pinion frightens the hell out of me to such an extent I'm keeping a wary eye on it. Think auto winding rotor.. I've seen some scary photos.
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Old 2 December 2011, 05:04 AM   #75
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In other news.. one of my watch buddies and business associates bought a Corum watch.. It folds out and sits on the desk.. very interesting... Anyway:

He paid to have it serviced as it was running fast.. slow.. just erratic in general [I almost thought it got magnetized]. He did not like the watch guy he was dealing with so he threw it into a draw. I got him into Rolex so he never thought about the watch again... Until he saw my little watch setup.

He asked me to take a look. It does not appear to be magnetized but the hair spring just looks off to me. The ticking is speeding up and slowing. Outside of the case the hairspring looks straight but inside it almost looks like it is bunched up. I am confused by the ETA movement a bit.. I think it says X4A ETA 2000V84A? The adjustment has a +/- screw but then there are TWO parts of the balance that will slide, sorta like the rolex adjustment to push down beat error. It seems the two of these things both have a section of the hair spring running through it. Very interesting. I also noted on this movement there are ball barings in the autowinding rotor mechanics.

I may just try and source the part and replace the spring in the end for him.. but for now I am experimenting with it since it is a high end watch and I know it's possible to fine tune the hairspring.. Again though, very interesting balance system. I noticed the case started to let in gunk, you can see it along the edges encroaching on the movement. Anyway, enjoy the pictures:
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File Type: jpg IMG_3377.JPG (172.3 KB, 1223 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3383.jpg (125.3 KB, 1217 views)
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Old 2 December 2011, 07:09 AM   #76
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Chris, you are an expert now.
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Old 2 December 2011, 08:15 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptugolf View Post
Chris, you are an expert now.
Haha, thanks for the vote of confidence. I have a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before I earn that title.

I'm going for it though.
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Old 2 December 2011, 10:47 AM   #78
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Some idle thought: I must become ONE with the hairspring. .. The shapes.. the kinds of springs out there..the subtle and not so subtle art of adjustments. The different systems in place in various movements.. Attributes of alloys used. I am OK with just about everything else inside a watch that I have seen to date.. but the hairspring still ALMOST scares me. Trying to find additional books on the topic[s] but a lot of the newer stuff seems like junk and the older stuff seems to be more like random notes then smooth reading. Still moving along though.

I've mostly been adjusting the hairsprings through indirect means like the stud rotation on the balance bridge. I've run into 2 watches though that have more going on and may have distorted hair springs.

I think I read about something you use to hold a spring while you correct it.. I need to figure out what those are and whatever options are available to do that. I find them troubling to work on.
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Old 2 December 2011, 06:35 PM   #79
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Continuing to love this thread.
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Old 2 December 2011, 11:30 PM   #80
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Hairspring manipulation is an art in itself. I don't know what books you have but Henry Fried's A Watch Repairers Manual is about the best out there show's step by step hairspring manipulation plus just about everything else. The book that most of the CW21 test is based on is The Theory of Horology quite a heady book but a must read. There's also the DeCarli's books on watches and clocks. Most of these can be bought from the AWCI or amazon. Give me a list of what you have for books now. Rikki
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Old 3 December 2011, 07:32 AM   #81
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Currently I am reading 'Practical watch repairing' by Donald de Carle. I'm in the middle of that one now. I feel like it sorta jumps around though.

The rest are digital. I actually had them for years and misplaced them/life happened.

I have a silly CD with '1000' watch books my mother got me like 13 years ago [I was fascinated by the mechanics as a kid.. but went into computers and built a business there, which gives me the time and money to pour myself into this]. That's why I got into this, I found the CD and tried read a few of them. Most of them are OLD from the 1900s.

Rikki, what would you recommend I pick up? Henry Fried's book? I do want to go after the CW21 in the end.

Also: Since I am opening and closing my watch, besides the silicon grease I got, I also picked up a whole assortment of Otto Frei Co 'Rolex' gaskets. They have a handy lookup chart to match the watch to gasket. I figure it's best to have things like this on hand. See below:
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Old 3 December 2011, 05:04 PM   #82
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Since I went in and fixed my beat error I had a gain of around 10 a day. I left this alone and tinkered with other watches.. Well I went back in today with new confidence and readjust it. This is the result: (Note this went smoother with no floating points after I stopped banging around on the desk.. the gain is correct though)

Getting a little better at this.. I think my hair spring seems more 'open' on the right side of the bridge then towards the left though. I think that is part of what is causing my low amplitude. Perhaps from poking it on accident with the tool when I first attempted it? I'm no longer worried about it.

Which brings me to a new point: Since I started diving into the movements.. I've not cared much about the outside of my case.. Isn't that funny? I was the typical panic about the little hairline scratches guy.. I guess since I am opening and closing this so much (My sub is my beater now) I've done enough minor little nicks and scratches now I am just not worried about it. Not to say I trashed it.. it looks fantastic still and the small things can be refinished.. but still. Fascinating!

Also happy to report I've had no more issues with the auto winding weight. Since Rikki explained to me how it should lock in.. I've been confident and it obliged.

I think a big part of this stuff seems to be getting the right knowledge, having confidence in that knowledge and not taking technique for granted..

I also think a big part of screwing a lot of stuff up.. is something very similar to the above.
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Old 4 December 2011, 12:20 AM   #83
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Nicely done!! Rikki
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Old 4 December 2011, 08:03 AM   #84
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Rikki, glad you approve. Today I was astonished at how well it ran! It has not gained anything because with crown up [I wear it on my right hand as I use both] it loses 1-2 a day. So it balanced out.

I am ordering 'Henry Fried's A Watch Repairers Manual' right now. Thank you again for your sage advice.
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Old 4 December 2011, 11:53 AM   #85
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Get the Theory of Horology also tough book but a large part of the CW21 test. Rikki It's about 160 to 175. dollars
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Old 4 December 2011, 12:02 PM   #86
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I noticed this one was 150 but I found it for 23 used:) I'll buy that too, even if I can't get a deal on it. Thanks again.
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Old 4 December 2011, 03:17 PM   #87
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Good stuff. Glad you're having fun with it. Very satisfying to be able to fix/adjust your own things. Just be careful about getting too confident in your ability to 'improve' things ;) though it sounds like you're in no danger of falling into that trap yet.
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Old 5 December 2011, 12:06 PM   #88
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Reporting back in folks!!! My watch is still running better then any Rolex i've ever owned out of 6.. but besides that, I have fantastic news!

I bought a waltham pocket watch on ebay for kicks... It was broken they said.. Looked like the movement was OK and the balance was intact.. no rust or anything like that visible.. So I bought it. On the cheap..

I just got it and upon trying to wind it.. the crown offered resistance as if it was too tight to wind.. but the interesting part was the springback.. I had a feeling the mainspring was still at least in one piece! I opened up the watch and I let the mainspring down by holding my fingers on the crown and easing the click out of place. The watch gears were like butter.. nice and smooth and then I wound it up just a little.. the balance wheel looked like it WANTED to start.. but no luck. Hairspring looked fine.. I noticed the pallet was not doing it's dance. . escapement wheel thus idle.. then it hit me!!!

I guessed that it was the roller jewel! Sure enough see the attached pictures! I was hoping it's in the movement somewhere. I noticed the dent on the roller and I think this type of movement might use that to turn the escapement instead of a jewel.. :( But still it may very well be there should be a jewel here.. researching.

Question: If it is the jewel: Is it possible to fashion a temp. jewel to test the rest of the movement? How do I order one??
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Old 5 December 2011, 01:52 PM   #89
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OK gents, I confirmed this style of movement takes advantage of a pin coming off end of the pallet where the safety pin would be. You can see it in the right picture in the center between the 'horns' of the pallet under the pallet bridge towards the jewel. This needs to bent in order to just touch the roller notch.. the other issue is I noticed on the pallet jewel left side the jewel is loose. I'll start by getting the balance to swing naturally enough to engage the pallet and then I'll make fine adjustments to the pallet and the two stops at the tail.. This movement has adjustable ones. On the top plate you can swing them with screws! Really neat. Blah blah blah, I'll leave this one for now as it's not Rolex related.. but I wanted to share some side adventures with you folks.
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Old 6 December 2011, 12:33 AM   #90
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First things first clean the movement more than once then replace the roller jewel with proper length D shaped jewel using shellac. Don't touch or adjust anything till you've done those things first. I think you'll find all you will need is the jewel and to recement the pallet stones with shellac. Ususally if you put the pallet on a pallet warmer and heat up, the residual shellac will soften and re solidify and hold the stones in place. While the pallet is warm that's when you can manipulate them in place,it may take a few times to get them properly aligned depth wise. The way to test the pallet is put some power on the gear train pallet in place balance out now take a small oiler and very lightly touch the fork horn to move it to one side if it flips to the other side with no studders that jewel is probably ok now flip to other side if it flips but skips then the depthing on the jewel is to shallow and needs to be lengthed. Always look at the jewels while doing this as to ascertain which one is locking and which one is dropping. There's a very narrow window when the jewel flips from one tooth to another if they don't lock properly you'll have overbanking problems also the roller jewel will come out of phase with the pallet fork then watch will completely stop till you reset the balance wheel. Just a brief overview of pallets 101. Good luck Rikki
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