Missing hallmark

[Czechman]

Isn't there are a lady's head hall mark missing on this clasp?


Auction listing:
HERE





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[crowncollection]

This is an extremely rare anomaly, I can only tell you a personal story and you decide on this one. About ten years ago I bought a president of a reputable USA seller. I had bought many watches off him and all ok. I recieved the watch no problems and the band was exactly as the one shown in the picture, the inside of the clasp was not shown in photos when i bought the watch. I saw the missing hallmarks and I immediately reported back to seller that the band was fake without checking it any further, the seller stated to me that it was original and that his supplier was very knowlegable and would know if it was fake, if i wanted a refund i would have to take it to Rolex and get a letter saying it is fake, if they said it was fake he would replace it if i sent it back with a letter from them. Fair enough i said, he wants a final opinion from rolex he clearly believes it to be genuine. I took it to rolex Melbourne, australia service division. I went in when they called me and I spoke with a technician. He said it must be fake, i asked him why he thought it was fake and he said I have never seen one like this before, it should have 2 hallmarks and they are missing and that is why i conclude it's FAKE but a good one, whatever that means. So that is Rolex australia's opinion, they gave me a letter and too the sellers credit he sent me another band after recieving the band and letter from rolex, i wish i kept a copy of the letter for times like now, it took a few extra weeks of course and a little headache in between, but the seller made it right.

Before sending it back, at home i examined it further and my observations were, the scrolling under a loupe was perfect, the welds were perfect, the screw hole and screw were perfect, hell the weight of a link and screw was perfect. Maybe that's is why the rolex tech came out looking a little bamboozelled and appeared a little unsure imho. Since then i have seen a few of these bands it is always the ones with extra markings the F 18000 stamp unlike other president bands, they were used on the early 18000 series eg. 18038 or 18078 etc. 1977- early 80's.

It was my intention to flip the watch quickly as i got it at a good price but with that band i could not and lost that immediate sale, anyway how can you argue with a rolex service centre, if the buyers takes it to them for a check they will say it's fake and thats all that matters how can i possible argue with that in court etc., i would have dramas and have to refund which would be too much of a headache.

Personally i believe after completing all the other checks on the band, it was original, but who am I to challenge rolex. Technically the swiss hallmarking laws only apply to watch cases if you read the laws carefully, the band is not mentioned, there have been some other vintage models with un-hallmarked bands throughout history, although relatively rare, but never a case or caseback as per law. Rolex has always chosen to send these bands to swiss precious metal control for assay stamping as a security feature, however it is not technically law to do so.

My theory is possibly for a short period maybe a mangerial decision of the time or to save costs or whatever they did not send the bands to swiss precious metals for a few short years, i believe these bands were destined for a foreign market (as a colletor friend of mine concurs these bands were more prevalent in the south american and mexican markets) and that is maybe why rolex australia had never seen one. Anyway, that is just my assumption, that or this wild theory someone stole a set of rolex stamping dies from the factory and used them to create these in the early 80's perhaps that is the case as the scrolling stamping was perfect, i guess they could not access the strictly controlled swiss hallmark govenment controlled dies to complete the job as rolex does not have them, they are under lock and key at the precious metal assay offices and they would have to send the band to them to get these stamped and likely get caught not being rolex, the second theory is really just a rumor i am starting

Please note these are just my experiences and personal theories and i have no official evidence to support those theories.

So you have to make your own mind up on this one sorry. Personally i would never touch one again, it's too much trouble, if you ever sell the watch or band and a buyer questions it, who would you believe a sellers unsupported theory and explanation or rolex at the end of the day. ROLEX say it's fake, so i guess it's FAKE.

[imono]

Crowncollection - take a look at this picture from ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolex-18k-Go...item460b96e2d0

Seems like it is more to do with Bark Bracelets.
This one from ebay dated 4/71.

I saw one with identical markings as the one above. What puzzle me was it had a clasp code "L" from about 1987. This non bark bracelet was found attached to a 3.2M (1971) serial DD model 1807.
1971 Bark model with a non bark bracelet from 1987.
Hope I can get some pics tomorrow.

[crowncollection]

I know it's very puzzling, mine was not a bark bracelet imono either, just the normal day date bracelet with polished centre links. As I said I believe they are probably an anomily and authentic, every other check was in favour of authentic. However, how can you argue with a rolex service centre report in writing. If i sold it and the customer took it to rolex for a check they would give the same answer, it's fake and then i would have headaches. Rolex is Rolex, if they say it's fake, who am i to argue, how can you defend yourself against a written report from rolex if the customer complains. I would rather not deal with the hassle to be honest. I am with you imono i think they are real and one of those anomilies of rolex. If you carefully read the swiss hallmark laws it does not in anyway refer to compulsory marking of anything but watch cases, rolex choose to hallmark nearly all of the gold bands. They are pretty rare i think as rolex australia said they had never seen one like it, i have seen 3 in my life and those were dated between 1977 - 1982 adn F18000 stamped, but you have just thrown another spanner into the mystery with a date code of 1971 ?.. As i said in previous post, i leave it to the individual to decide on this one, that was my experience i wanted to share. Thanks for sharing that photo it appears it was not just the F18000 bands, great to learn something new thanks imono

[joseluu]

I would like to add my two cents:

It is difficult for me to believe that Swiss hallmark law refers only to cases and casebacks. Possibly that is what it says under the heading WATCHES or something like that, because I am pretty convinced that jewelry factories have to hallmark their wares as well, even if they don't make watches. I believe gold ingots, for instance, have to be hallmarked too.

On the issue at hand, I tend to concur with you: if Rolex says it's fake it's safer to treat it as fake unless you like it, the price is right and you don't intend to sell it to anyone reading this thread.

[Czechman]

It does seem odd that someone would go to great lengths to make the "perfect counterfeit" and then leave off something so obvious.





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[joseluu]

I think we tend to agree that it is a genuine clasp with some sort of overlook. The problem is that it is an expensive overlook...

[masterserg]

I have no skin on this one, but (since it is very interesting) I would say that it seems like a lot of trouble even if original ... and if you buy for yourself, you will always have that nagging doubt in the back of your head.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by masterserg

I have no skin on this one, but (since it is very interesting) I would say that it seems like a lot of trouble even if original ... and if you buy for yourself, you will always have that nagging doubt in the back of your head.

x2

[imono]

Here are some pics.
1st pic from ebay. 2nd pic from me.

All other pics are from the 1807 watch which I took today.
My own observation on the 1807 -
1)Model 1807 with 3.2M serial (1971).
2)Bracelet and #53 end links correct period for 3.2M serial.
3)Clasp with "L" from 1987 fitted.

Shouldn't this 1807 be fitted with a Bark bracelet? For now it is a non bark finish.
It is indeed a mystery to see a late production without the famous hallmark on the "L" clasp.

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by joseluu

I would like to add my two cents:

It is difficult for me to believe that Swiss hallmark law refers only to cases and casebacks. Possibly that is what it says under the heading WATCHES or something like that, because I am pretty convinced that jewelry factories have to hallmark their wares as well, even if they don't make watches. I believe gold ingots, for instance, have to be hallmarked too.

On the issue at hand, I tend to concur with you: if Rolex says it's fake it's safer to treat it as fake unless you like it, the price is right and you don't intend to sell it to anyone reading this thread.

All watch cases made of gold, silver, platinum or palladium, of foreign or domestic manufacture, sold in Switzerland, are subject to inspection and compulsory official marking. A single official hallmark is used for all precious metals and all fineness standards, the head of a St. Bernard dog post 1995.

The assay office used will appear in place of the "X" on the ear of the St. Bernard. Rolex still use the Genève office.

Under the current law post 1995, on all gold, silver, platinum or palladium watches cases made in Switzerland or imported into Switzerland, near the Maker's Responsibility Mark and his indication of purity, the official Hallmark, the head of a Saint-Bernard dog will be present. Only precious metal watch cases must be hallmarked.

Swiss hallmarking for other articles such as jewelry and cutlery is optional.

[Czechman]

Stupid question was here





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[77T]

Originally Posted by masterserg

I have no skin on this one, but (since it is very interesting) I would say that it seems like a lot of trouble even if original ... and if you buy for yourself, you will always have that nagging doubt in the back of your head.

I understand that. And was my first reaction, too. But reflecting on David's case - and if this one was genuine as judged by the RSC, then a simple service would put all doubts aside. And you'd have the papers to confirm that for future reference in a resale.

[Ykk10]

Can anyone else help me to identify whether a Rolex bracelet clasp hallmarks ( Surrounded with a series of scrolled lines and is topped with the coronet ) is a counterfeit or genuine ? Any comparison ?

[Breadwinner1]

I know this post is dead, and I currently don't have any pictures to prove my claim. BUT my first Rolex I purchased was an 1807 president back in 2017. I bought it for $7500, and the clasp had this exact same issue!! No helvetia lady hallmark. Everything else about the bracelet, and clasp was 100% perfect. I feel like this is more common on the bark bracelets.