the Coronavirus outbreak thread

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Brew

Even if we are inclined to ease restrictions, it seems to me they cannot be eased any more than our hospitals' capacities to care for the population, or risk collapse. Will that amount of folks going back to work really help matters, given the risks involved in these sort of calculations?

Agreed. That's a whole other tangent.

There is concern over the health issues associated with a lockdown induced economic downturn....but what of the issues associated with an overwhelmed healthcare system?

People with non Covid related situations that can't get intervention because capacity is gone.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Yeah my proof as I’ve watched just about every single one of them from the time of their naming until they either made landfall or dissipated somewhere in the Atlantic. You know there are some really good apps with radar and satellite images to watch and track these things right?

I really don’t have the time to go back and look up every hurricane. Just goggle some of the big ones yourself and see how wrong they were as to where they were going to land. And when I say wrong I mean 500-1000 miles off. That didn’t stop them from bringing different sections of the economy in the southeast to a complete stop for one to three weeks while the news media went into complete panic mode and sensationalized it. Sound familiar?

I always see a cone of probability and not a x marks the spot projection.

Like everything, there are variables, and sometimes many variables, the variance in only one of which can cause the models to adjust over time. You seem to believe that there should be a much higher degree of exactitude which may never be completely possible in any scientific analysis whether it be COVID, hurricanes or anything.

Inescapable is that the models can generally predict x within a measure of variance. If people use that variance to support their belief that scientists do not know s*#@, then we set up ourselves for catastrophe.

The projection for Katrina was pretty damn accurate, yet people ignored the warnings with devastating results.

Fauci’s and others projections must constantly change to reflect changing variables, such as people’s level of adherence to social distancing, which can have a direct impact on the eventual final numbers.

[Moggo]

In the U.K. now they are starting to include those that died at home which I believe they weren’t previously doing, the cases have risen a fair bit today.

Why people are dying at home with no care is something I can’t work out?


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[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I would appreciate if the death toll would be less sensationalized and more "professional" in it's depiction of the health of the people before their contracting the virus.

I realize this is difficult but it would make for a far better analysis of when and how we lift restrictions on movements.

Now it's just xx died and we have no idea the ages, general previous health and complications they have pre-existing. We do know that smoking in China and Italy is a real thing. So did a large number of deaths have compromised lung issues previously.

An actor died a couple of days ago and there was no indication he was already sick when he contracted the virus but someone on a messaged board that knew him indicated he was. Obviously anecdotal but it would be nice to have more in depth reporting on this stuff. Then we have the Tom Hanks stuff where he and his wife pretty much sailed through the virus much like getting the flu.

Bottom line is how previously compromised are the patients that are dying when they show up in hospitals.

Stay safe everyone.

It's very complicated. At any given time in the US the majority of ICU beds are occupied, often with vented patients. However, for other conditions, either immediate post-operative cases and medically ill people, the duration of vent time is much less than the average COVID patient once placed on a ventilator. Now all of those patients that could have been cared for through an acute event to recover will have no access to that high level of support, as the ICU beds will be full and ventilators will all be in use, some supporting 2 patients when feasible. One severe COVID case on a vent for 2-3 weeks will essentially bump a few patients who could have used that resource to recover after open heart surgery, brain surgery, sepsis, heart failure or COPD exacerbation, etc. Most of the patients that succumb to COVID will have an underlying chronic illness, but for many of those patients in normal times they would have chugged along for many years in our health care system. These numbers can be painted with many different brushes, so we need to be careful as to how they are interpreted.

One thing I know for sure. If hospitals are reaching out to retirees, students, and practitioners who haven't stepped foot in a hospital in years, we are under-resourced for this expanding crisis.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I would appreciate if the death toll would be less sensationalized and more "professional" in it's depiction of the health of the people before their contracting the virus.

I realize this is difficult but it would make for a far better analysis of when and how we lift restrictions on movements.

Now it's just xx died and we have no idea the ages, general previous health and complications they have pre-existing. We do know that smoking in China and Italy is a real thing. So did a large number of deaths have compromised lung issues previously.

An actor died a couple of days ago and there was no indication he was already sick when he contracted the virus but someone on a messaged board that knew him indicated he was. Obviously anecdotal but it would be nice to have more in depth reporting on this stuff. Then we have the Tom Hanks stuff where he and his wife pretty much sailed through the virus much like getting the flu.

Bottom line is how previously compromised are the patients that are dying when they show up in hospitals.

Stay safe everyone.

It will take months afterwards to correctly analyze this data. Right now, medical professionals are simply trying to keep people alive. Once the statisticians have a chance to run the numbers, then we should be able to see exactly what co-morbidities were most affected. My guess is the obvious cardio and pulmonary at risk people and then immune compromised and other diseased populations. Smoking and obesity may have a compounding effect but it will take time to figure out how much.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by Moggo

In the U.K. now they are starting to include those that died at home which I believe they weren’t previously doing, the cases have risen a fair bit today.

Why people are dying at home with no care is something I can’t work out?


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If you have people who are so frail and demented that that cannot walk or talk, or people who have advanced, incurable cancer and they get seriously ill with a respiratory infection, sending them in to die in hospital is not always the right thing to do.

These people don’t get no care in the community, though palliative care services are being tested, not so much by the numbers but the difficulties imposed by social distancing and isolation protocols.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

It will take months afterwards to correctly analyze this data. Right now, medical professionals are simply trying to keep people alive. Once the statisticians have a chance to run the numbers, then we should be able to see exactly what co-morbidities were most affected. My guess is the obvious cardio and pulmonary at risk people and then immune compromised and other diseased populations. Smoking and obesity may have a compounding effect but it will take time to figure out how much.

I realize it's cold blooded to take human life and make it statistical, but obviously the movement ban will have to be lifted at some point, and slotting people into, massive high risk, high risk, slightly risky etc etc, we can then sort of quarantine the most vulnerable people and try to get the planet started up again, work-wise.

But I think the longer we don't know the real numbers of previously compromised patients the longer/harder it will be to balance the death toll vs get back to work necessity that will hit in a month or two.

And I do appreciate people on the front lines of health care are overwhelmed now with bigger concerns but we need the bean counters in there as well to work the numbers statistically.

We know this thing isn't going away, and we need to soon make some hard choices.

Anecdotally my mother in law is 85, works 3 days a week, and is chomping at the bit to get back to work. Unfortunately she has compromised lung function due to asthma and there aint no way in hell she should be leaving her house. There are people that need to resign themselves that THEY can't work until there is a vaccination which is maybe at least a year to two away.

[JasoninDenver]

And thoughts on the constitutional issues at play...

We can limit the freedoms granted under the constitution and have done so frequently to prevent a clear and present danger to the publics health or welfare. The historical example is that restrictions preventing you from yelling fire in a movie theater is a reasonable restriction on free speech. Yet, preventing a KKK march is not a reasonable restriction.

Historians have debated the Japanese Internment Act. At the time, people were convinced that it was reasonable and necessary. However, it was not enacted with a factual basis for the restrictions (no actual evidence of plots by these American citizens) just perceptions based on bias.

The justifications for governmental action on Coronavirus are clearly allowable to prevent a clear and present danger to public health and welfare. At some point, we can start to balance that equation but not now, no matter how severe the short term impact to the economy.

Once we have the medical resources available to meet the demands on the system then lets think about re-opening. We have China as guide here. I just hope that we do not ignore their experience and think we will be different as we did in the early weeks of this.

[Moggo]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

If you have people who are so frail and demented that that cannot walk or talk, or people who have advanced, incurable cancer and they get seriously ill with a respiratory infection, sending them in to die in hospital is not always the right thing to do.

These people don’t get no care in the community, though palliative care services are being tested, not so much by the numbers but the difficulties imposed by social distancing and isolation protocols.

This is a huge part of the whole problem that gets missed, all concentrate on the virus and everything else slides. It’s lose/lose.


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[Moggo]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

And thoughts on the constitutional issues at play...

We can limit the freedoms granted under the constitution and have done so frequently to prevent a clear and present danger to the publics health or welfare. The historical example is that restrictions preventing you from yelling fire in a movie theater is a reasonable restriction on free speech. Yet, preventing a KKK march is not a reasonable restriction.

Historians have debated the Japanese Internment Act. At the time, people were convinced that it was reasonable and necessary. However, it was not enacted with a factual basis for the restrictions (no actual evidence of plots by these American citizens) just perceptions based on bias.

The justifications for governmental action on Coronavirus are clearly allowable to prevent a clear and present danger to public health and welfare. At some point, we can start to balance that equation but not now, no matter how severe the short term impact to the economy.

Once we have the medical resources available to meet the demands on the system then lets think about re-opening. We have China as guide here. I just hope that we do not ignore their experience and think we will be different as we did in the early weeks of this.

With respect I think using anything China have done or do is flawed, they have manipulated and lied, it’s completely untrustworthy.

Not to mention that for 20+ years they have been warned about the potential cost of their dinning habits.


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[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by Moggo

This is a huge part of the whole problem that gets missed, all concentrate on the virus and everything else slides. It’s lose/lose.


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The kinds of people we’re talking about here would not be going in to hospital with most serious ailments they might contract, regardless of what’s happening with COVID-19. It’s a fact of life that, if you live long enough, the human body degrades to the point that trying to keep whatever is left vaguely animated becomes impossible and sometimes even cruel.

Also consider that a lot of people in care and nursing homes either have advanced directives which stipulate they don’t want to go into hospital in the event of severe illness or their NOK have had discussions with their doctors and concluded that their ceiling of care should not escalate to going into hospital.

This is all standard stuff in community medicine and not related to COVID-19.

[andyxxx]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

We have China as guide here. I just hope that we do not ignore their experience and think we will be different as we did in the early weeks of this.

I think that any nation taking China as a guide would be foolish as I do not believe any of their numbers/statistics.

If we do in fact take Chinas figures as fact, it looks like there’s little further to worry about (Just re-open after a few weeks shutdown)

Somehow they have re-opened and the virus has virtually stopped spreading to the rest of the population with miraculously few new cases or deaths.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I realize it's cold blooded to take human life and make it statistical, but obviously the movement ban will have to be lifted at some point, and slotting people into, massive high risk, high risk, slightly risky etc etc, we can then sort of quarantine the most vulnerable people and try to get the planet started up again, work-wise.

But I think the longer we don't know the real numbers of previously compromised patients the longer/harder it will be to balance the death toll vs get back to work necessity that will hit in a month or two.

And I do appreciate people on the front lines of health care are overwhelmed now with bigger concerns but we need the bean counters in there as well to work the numbers statistically.

We know this thing isn't going away, and we need to soon make some hard choices.

I think that's part of the equation Blansky. We need to risk stratify people. We need to have adequate testing to know the true-ish number of infected people in a geographical area, via PCR testing. We need to know how many people have been infected and are (presumably) immune via antibody testing, as they will be the safest bunch to interact with the high risk groups until there is a vaccine. Armed with this info, ASAP, we can get people back to work on site to get the economy on track.

One important thing we can all do is talk with our at-risk family members about their wishes should they become ill. Making these decisions under duress is stressful for everyone involved. Having a plan is always helpful, and particularly now.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I would appreciate if the death toll would be less sensationalized and more "professional" in it's depiction of the health of the people before their contracting the virus.

I realize this is difficult but it would make for a far better analysis of when and how we lift restrictions on movements.

Now it's just xx died and we have no idea the ages, general previous health and complications they have pre-existing. We do know that smoking in China and Italy is a real thing. So did a large number of deaths have compromised lung issues previously.

An actor died a couple of days ago and there was no indication he was already sick when he contracted the virus but someone on a messaged board that knew him indicated he was. Obviously anecdotal but it would be nice to have more in depth reporting on this stuff. Then we have the Tom Hanks stuff where he and his wife pretty much sailed through the virus much like getting the flu.

Bottom line is how previously compromised are the patients that are dying when they show up in hospitals.

Stay safe everyone.

Tom Hanks has Type 2 Diabetes

https://www.today.com/health/tom-han...s-i-was-t93111

Seems to have fared ok.

But, there have been numerous cases of young, healthy individuals passing away from it. No known diabetes, no heart issues, no renal issues, no cancer...etc

It might come down to the amount of virus they were exposed to?? That needs to be considered in the balancing proposals, along with quarantining the vulnerable, as with enough virus exposure, the "healthy" are vulnerable too...they are still humans after all...

That is one thing the proponents of masks will say is that even if the masks aren't perfect, they will limit the inoculum that enters the respiratory tract. Less inoculm = less illness

[Moggo]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

The kinds of people we’re talking about here would not be going in to hospital with most serious ailments they might contract, regardless of what’s happening with COVID-19. It’s a fact of life that, if you live long enough, the human body degrades to the point that trying to keep whatever is left vaguely animated becomes impossible and sometimes even cruel.

Also consider that a lot of people in care and nursing homes either have advanced directives which stipulate they don’t want to go into hospital in the event of severe illness or their NOK have had discussions with their doctors and concluded that their ceiling of care should not escalate to going into hospital.

This is all standard stuff in community medicine and not related to COVID-19.

The brutal truth is sobering.


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[Rolexatlast]

JPMorgan have released their predictions for corona virus impact on GDP.

They seem to saying that only a handful of economies will be affected by >5%. Obviously any drop is bad, particularly if you lose your livelihood.

However, 5% does not seem to equal ‘destroyed economy’, and should be made up within a couple of years, and seems a price worth paying for saving 100 000s of lives

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ndation-widget

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

It might come down to the amount of virus they were exposed to?? That needs to be considered in the balancing proposals, along with quarantining the vulnerable, as with enough virus exposure, the "healthy" are vulnerable too...they are still humans after all...

That is one thing the proponents of masks will say is that even if the masks aren't perfect, they will limit the inoculum that enters the respiratory tract. Less inoculm = less illness

That's a good point. One doesn't really think of "how much" one gets when one gets a virus. We seem to think more of, like when we get the flu "bug" that we get it or we don't. We sometimes think more along the lines my immune system may have been a bit down and I caught it.

The how much is definitely a variable that isn't on most peoples radar.

[77T]

I got this email today. Any optimists think this race will go off?


Members and AJC Peachtree Road Race registrants,

The traditional registration period for the AJC Peachtree Road Race has ended. More than 45,000 participants registered through Atlanta Track Club’s lottery and member portals from March 15 to March 31. While this is short of the normal field size of 60,000, this level of demand in these challenging weeks speaks to people’s passion for Atlanta’s July Fourth tradition.



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[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Rolexatlast

JPMorgan have released their predictions for corona virus impact on GDP.

They seem to saying that only a handful of economies will be affected by >5%. Obviously any drop is bad, particularly if you lose your livelihood.

However, 5% does not seem to equal ‘destroyed economy’, and should be made up within a couple of years, and seems a price worth paying for saving 100 000s of lives

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ndation-widget

So much of this depends on WHEN we go back to work. If we went back in 2 weeks, probably no economic affect, but if we go back in September or later, predicted number are probably out the window.

Obviously if there are limited deaths and people go back in a few months, the economy should pretty much rebound to where it is today within not too long.

We also have the law of unintended consequences, where companies see that, you know what, some of these jobs can be part time and from home, or we can teleconference more and travel less, or small businesses just can't bounce back and disappear. etc.

It will be interesting to see if there are corporate workforce reductions that don't go back to previous numbers after this.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Blansky

That's a good point. One doesn't really think of "how much" one gets when one gets a virus. We seem to think more of, like when we get the flu "bug" that we get it or we don't. We sometimes think more along the lines my immune system may have been a bit down and I caught it.

The how much is definitely a variable that isn't on most peoples radar.

I agree. The perception is you either have it or you don't...but there does seem to be a case for viral load exposed to and level of illness.

I am not sure what the data is on that, but you do see doctors and nurses being exposed to a very high concentration and duration of exposure to virus and they can get very very ill..

So, again, my mask crusade does allow mitigation of viral load taken in as there is a barrier to block more virus from getting up you nose...

I don't see a path to balancing without masks for the general public...either commercially produced or homemade. Get something in front of your face holes.

[Rolexatlast]

Originally Posted by Blansky

So much of this depends on WHEN we go back to work. If we went back in 2 weeks, probably no economic affect, but if we go back in September or later, predicted number are probably out the window.

Obviously if there are limited deaths and people go back in a few months, the economy should pretty much rebound to where it is today within not too long.

We also have the law of unintended consequences, where companies see that, you know what, some of these jobs can be part time and from home, or we can teleconference more and travel less, or small businesses just can't bounce back and disappear. etc.

It will be interesting to see if there are corporate workforce reductions that don't go back to previous numbers after this.

Back in the early 2000s in the UK we had a couple of very bad winters (for the UK) with extensive flooding followed by major railway works, and people not able to commute into London, which gave a step-change in people working from home. Then later in the decade and the 2010s, big business decided that if workers still do their jobs can from their UK home, then they could employ lower wage peopled overseas.

Be interesting the consequences of this outbreak : will it also lead to a further step change in working from home, but this time with reduced international supply chains? And after the warnings from SARS and Bird Flu, will the international business community scale back work in China? And what could be China’s response to try to boost confidence? Could this lead to wholesale regulatory change?

[Phooi]

Originally Posted by superdog

Another question:

Any info out there on how exercise and keeping yourself healthy helps?

As an asthmatic, I’m working harder to keep my lungs healthy. I’ve always exercised, but I’m now making a point to push my cardio higher to ensure I’m increasing lung capacity. I did hill runs yesterday for example.

And I’ve noticed that I’m using my inhaler less. Just a day or so, so far, but I’ll take whatever I can get.

Anyone posting exercise and healthy lifestyle to help combat getting severe symptoms? I’d love to check out the data or any information on that.

I think it’s telling that out of a ship full of healthy sailors, none of them yet have fallen ill with severe symptoms even while the virus is spreading through the ship.

Can’t find anything about it though.

I’m not a physician or trainer but from a common sense perspective, being in good shape prepares you for whatever negatives will come your way.

I’m not sure what causes your asthma but one of the side effects of CV19 has been a reduction of air pollution worldwide. Good air quality generally benefits people with asthma. There are apps you can use to track air quality in your area.

Finally from a training perspective, make sure you are not overtraining. When you overtrain, you are negating any of the gains your body has made. Make sure you properly recover so you actually benefit from the gains you’ve made.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Rolexatlast

Back in the early 2000s in the UK we had a couple of very bad winters (for the UK) with extensive flooding followed by major railway works, and people not able to commute into London, which gave a step-change in people working from home. Then later in the decade and the 2010s, big business decided that if workers still do their jobs can from their UK home, then they could employ lower wage peopled overseas.

Be interesting the consequences of this outbreak : will it also lead to a further step change in working from home, but this time with reduced international supply chains? And after the warnings from SARS and Bird Flu, will the international business community scale back work in China? And what could be China’s response to try to boost confidence? Could this lead to wholesale regulatory change?

I remember back maybe 10-15 years ago (maybe longer) when the whole teleconferencing thing was taking off and you'd see people around boardrooms with the big screen talking to customers on a similar screen miles away.

Then American Airlines ran a commercial of how some sales exec was traveling around doing face to face meetings and getting all the contracts. I do think that humans still need the face to face thing more than sterile big screen communications to feel they want to do business with you.

My wife and I were discussing this walking on the beach in Maui 10 days ago ( seems much much longer) because she is in medical education for a medical device company and she travels a lot as well as is on conference calls 5 hours a day. We wonder how this will change.

Time will tell. But I doubt that things will go back to the exactly the same as before.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Phooi

I’m not a physician or trainer but from a common sense perspective, being in good shape prepares you for whatever negatives will come your way.

I’m not sure what causes your asthma but one of the side effects of CV19 has been a reduction of air pollution worldwide. Good air quality generally benefits people with asthma. There are apps you can use to track air quality in your area.

Finally from a training perspective, make sure you are not overtraining. When you overtrain, you are negating any of the gains your body has made. Make sure you properly recover so you actually benefit from the gains you’ve made.

agree. I am not overly worried about myself. just stating some of what I am doing and what I am thinking.

curious though that the worlds' experts are not putting out this information. that people are not researching this.

it is similar to the problem with diabetes and obesity in the US. Instead of actually taking accountability for ones self and actions, we are creating new and different drugs. the government should be promoting a healthy diet and lifestyle not pouring money into a broken healthcare solution that just kicks the can down the road.

this virus appears to be attacking those very same people that should have been getting healthier based on their diabetes rather than taking pills to mask it.

its as if everyone would prefer to just sit around and let someone else solve their problems. I simply don't understand this mindset.

yes, I can barely tie my own shoes so I will buy slip ons instead. that is the mentality here. Instead of actually pushing yourself away from the table and effecting positive changes.

in this situation, we are literally right now locked away in our homes. Why exactly are government officials not promoting a health lifestyle??? why is there absolutely zero accountability for us as individuals.

because the vast majority are looking for some kind of handout or help or solution to be provided to them.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by superdog

agree. I am not overly worried about myself. just stating some of what I am doing and what I am thinking.

curious though that the worlds' experts are not putting out this information. that people are not researching this.

it is similar to the problem with diabetes and obesity in the US. Instead of actually taking accountability for ones self and actions, we are creating new and different drugs. the government should be promoting a healthy diet and lifestyle not pouring money into a broken healthcare solution that just kicks the can down the road.

this virus appears to be attacking those very same people that should have been getting healthier based on their diabetes rather than taking pills to mask it.

its as if everyone would prefer to just sit around and let someone else solve their problems. I simply don't understand this mindset.

yes, I can barely tie my own shoes so I will buy slip ons instead. that is the mentality here. Instead of actually pushing yourself away from the table and effecting positive changes.

in this situation, we are literally right now locked away in our homes. Why exactly are government officials not promoting a health lifestyle??? why is there absolutely zero accountability for us as individuals.

because the vast majority are looking for some kind of handout or help or solution to be provided to them.

I think you make a good point about accountability. I've personally had bad habits in the past, so I'm not innocent here, and probably few people are doing everything they should. That said, I understand and support the goal of getting a doctor/nurse/bed/ventilator for everyone who needs one, regardless of their past decisions.

I also think that not everybody is as well-informed as you. They don't realize how dangerous a pack of cigarettes really is, how bad frequent fast food or junk food is, or how bad heavy habitual drinking is. They see other people with bad habits, and it gets normalized in the culture. If people could go to a primary care doctor for free, they might get some firm advice and tough love re. smoking/drug cessation, diet, and exercise. If we end up with our own version of the NHS, and it increases availability of routine doctor visits (as opposed to last-resort ER visits) I'd be fine with that.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

I think you make a good point about accountability. I've personally had bad habits in the past, so I'm not innocent here, and probably few people are doing everything they should. That said, I understand and support the goal of getting a doctor/nurse/bed/ventilator for everyone who needs one, regardless of their past decisions.

I also think that not everybody is as well-informed as you. They don't realize how dangerous a pack of cigarettes really is, how bad frequent fast food or junk food is, or how bad heavy habitual drinking is. They see other people with bad habits, and it gets normalized in the culture. If people could go to a primary care doctor for free, they might get some firm advice and tough love re. smoking/drug cessation, diet, and exercise. If we end up with our own version of the NHS, and it increases availability of routine doctor visits (as opposed to last-resort ER visits) I'd be fine with that.

my brother. thank you for your response.

but everyone knows that smoking cigarettes is bad for you. And everyone knows that eating a ton of junk food is bad for you. You don't need an education, you only need to listen to your body.

the free this and free that is exactly the problem. everyone thinks they have "rights". there is not such things as "rights". the only truth is the truth of Mother Nature. and that is being proven to us now.

you cant learn if you cant admit fault. and we have created a culture that points fingers at everything because someones feelings might be at fault if they actually admit fault.

I have gout. when I eat a certain way, I have a flare up and I am in enormous pain. that is the only fact of the matter. I can take meds to cover it up, but at what cost.

our culture wants to feel good at all costs. so instead of taking responsibility and learning and changing, we blame other people and expect to find answers in other people.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by superdog

agree. I am not overly worried about myself. just stating some of what I am doing and what I am thinking.

curious though that the worlds' experts are not putting out this information. that people are not researching this.

it is similar to the problem with diabetes and obesity in the US. Instead of actually taking accountability for ones self and actions, we are creating new and different drugs. the government should be promoting a healthy diet and lifestyle not pouring money into a broken healthcare solution that just kicks the can down the road.

this virus appears to be attacking those very same people that should have been getting healthier based on their diabetes rather than taking pills to mask it.

its as if everyone would prefer to just sit around and let someone else solve their problems. I simply don't understand this mindset.

yes, I can barely tie my own shoes so I will buy slip ons instead. that is the mentality here. Instead of actually pushing yourself away from the table and effecting positive changes.

in this situation, we are literally right now locked away in our homes. Why exactly are government officials not promoting a health lifestyle??? why is there absolutely zero accountability for us as individuals.

because the vast majority are looking for some kind of handout or help or solution to be provided to them.

Seth I think it's twofold. First, for reasons not entirely clear, the cytokine storm that leads to ARDS seems to be more frequent in older individuals. Thankfully kids are almost completely spared. Second, once a person is experiencing a cytokine storm and ARDS, their fitness level will likely have a great impact on survivability.

It's anecdotal, but while many are dying from inadequate oxygen delivery, others are dying from cardiac stress. Essentially the labs suggest they are having a heart attack, but the lab test is really just a marker of cardiac cell death. Heart muscle is dying, but not due to a blocked blood vessel as is typical. In these cases it is presumed to be myocardial inflammation. Whether that is direct viral infection, part of the cytokine storm, or some sort of microvascular phenomenon, I do not know.

I think that for the US experience we are still in the data gathering phase. There is a ton of publication going on with mostly case reports and per hospital statistics and experiences. But to do proper peer-reviewed rigorous analysis from which to draw conclusions, this will take time.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Seth I think it's twofold. First, for reasons not entirely clear, the cytokine storm that leads to ARDS seems to be more frequent in older individuals. Thankfully kids are almost completely spared. Second, once a person is experiencing a cytokine storm and ARDS, their fitness level will likely have a great impact on survivability.

It's anecdotal, but while many are dying from inadequate oxygen delivery, others are dying from cardiac stress. Essentially the labs suggest they are having a heart attack, but the lab test is really just a marker of cardiac cell death. Heart muscle is dying, but not due to a blocked blood vessel as is typical. In these cases it is presumed to be myocardial inflammation. Whether that is direct viral infection, part of the cytokine storm, or some sort of microvascular phenomenon, I do not know.

I think that for the US experience we are still in the data gathering phase. There is a ton of publication going on with mostly case reports and per hospital statistics and experiences. But to do proper peer-reviewed rigorous analysis from which to draw conclusions, this will take time.

thats too smart for me.

All I am saying is the "experts" and the powers that be should be promoting what people can do to better themselves. Not all the doom and gloom. Yes, challenges abound. Of course. But clearly our population will benefit from a healthier fitter lifestyle.

stop eating so damned much. have fruit instead of a candy bar. there are bananas and apples and oranges in every bodega I have ever been in to. and I work in all the worst areas as I work in industrial parks across the country.

I am not perfect either. and I have been drinking at nights during all this crap. but I am getting sleep, I am exercising, and I am watching what I eat.

personal accountability goes a long way in life.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by superdog

but everyone knows that smoking cigarettes is bad for you. And everyone knows that eating a ton of junk food is bad for you. You don't need an education, you only need to listen to your body.

the free this and free that is exactly the problem. everyone thinks they have "rights". there is not such things as "rights". the only truth is the truth of Mother Nature. and that is being proven to us now.

you cant learn if you cant admit fault. and we have created a culture that points fingers at everything because someones feelings might be at fault if they actually admit fault.
.

you have a point. some people never listen to advice & never admit their mistakes. which, in my experience, is positively correlated with complaining and blame games. We now face a brainless virus that doesn't care about people's reasoning. Slow metabolism, feeling sad, bad childhood, etc. -- it doesn't care why someone is in poor health, it just enters and replicates.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

you have a point. some people never listen to advice & never admit their mistakes. which, in my experience, is positively correlated with complaining and blame games. We now face a brainless virus that doesn't care about people's reasoning. Slow metabolism, feeling sad, bad childhood, etc. -- it doesn't care why someone is in poor health, it just enters and replicates.

YES!!!!!!

Exactly brother. Exactly.

edit: I should not be clapping at that. I was just saying that this was the point I was trying to make. Excuses are worthless here. Mother Nature does not care about excuses.