Consumer Behavioral Shift vs. Patek

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by DJTOSUB

Two interesting and completely different viewpoints.

The downside of only buying watches that retain or increase in value is that the list of potential watches gets narrowed down to certain PP, Rolex, or AP references.

Not necessarily true. If you pay a good/fair price on the preowned market , for example if you pay like 3.5k for a PAM 112, a sufficiently low entry point makes value retention a bit better.

Harder to do but certainly possible

[Chiboy]

Very interesting discussion! And I haven't even read the article yet.

I bought a used platinum Daytona after about four months on this forum when I grew tired of waiting for a white SS Daytona promised by a local AD. Good thing, as they never came through.

The market has gone (more) crazy since then, but my thought when I bought it was that it likely had $10k of depreciation to go before it bottomed out I was fine with that. Now it's three years later and it really doesn't matter that the market has gone up a bit. But reading here daily, kind of pushes you towards thinking, "If I can get SS watch A, I can wear it for 'free' and sell it whenever I want and come out whole." While it's fun to be able to do that (if you can source at MSRP), it does change the thinking a little, which I don't like. I never bought my first Rolex to make money, nor did I buy the second one with that motivation.

[DVR]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

If you pay a good/fair price on the preowned market , for example if you pay like 3.5k for a PAM 112, a sufficiently low entry point makes value retention a bit better.

For you, to be able to buy pre-owned at a huge discount someone has had to buy new in the first place. Who would that be ?

Just face it, many here only like watches if they are 'free'.

If the market would collapse tomorrow this forum would loose a lot of traffic instantly.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by DVR

For you, to be able to buy pre-owned at a huge discount someone has had to buy new in the first place. Who would that be ?

Just face it, many here only like watches if they are 'free'.

If the market would collapse tomorrow this forum would loose a lot of traffic instantly.

Not all the time...if the watch really isn't worth retail, they sit on the shelves until the brand has to unload (either to grey or discounting). I do agree that someone does get shafted but were willingly shafted i guess. I mean for every 10 people that walk into a Panerai boutique will 1 even pay full MSRP without asking for a discount? I think so...

[Vipes]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I'm eying it - haven't bought it. Admired from afar :)

You should do it. I recently bought the RG Rootbeer and I’ve been wearing it almost everywhere (except work).

[DVR]

Please stay honest, we all know about the discounts when buying new.
I like the game of getting a decent/fair discount when buying new.
But even at 20 off you still loose 30 when selling used.

Again, who is 'carrying' this 30% when you are able to buy pre-owned?
Not the 'collectors' who took over the watch hobby it seams.

And I will repeat, I have no problem with this mentality. I just don't get it.
When I buy an apartment block and renovate it , when I sell I expect to make a significant profit. But when I buy a watch it is 'for me' to enjoy. And enjoyment is usually not free.
A fine wine is not free, a nice holiday is not free. Nice furniture is not free. We all accept that. But the new breed of watch collectors see it different when it comes to the things they supposedly like and admire.

I am going to to stop posting in this thread as I do not want to make anyone feel bad.
It is what it is.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by DVR

Please stay honest, we all know about the discounts when buying new.
I like the game of getting a decent/fair discount when buying new.
But even at 20 off you still loose 30 when selling used.

Again, who is 'carrying' this 30% when you are able to buy pre-owned?
Not the 'collectors' who took over the watch hobby it seams.

And I will repeat, I have no problem with this mentality. I just don't get it.
When I buy an apartment block and renovate it , when I sell I expect to make a significant profit. But when I buy a watch it is 'for me' to enjoy. And enjoyment is usually not free.
A fine wine is not free, a nice holiday is not free. Nice furniture is not free. We all accept that. But the new breed of watch collectors see it different when it comes to the things they supposedly like and admire.

I am going to to stop posting in this thread as I do not want to make anyone feel bad.
It is what it is.

No one is feeling bad my friend - good to hear differing opinions. Personally, I've gotten as much as 35% off on my watches at the AD for Panerai and Omega and some GS. I've also known some grey dealers that have gotten 60% to 70% off Authorized dealers that are stretched for cash and need to liquidate in order for the next shipment. How do you think places like Jomashop and greys get brand new pieces for that low? There is also bundling.

Another source are also dealer shows. I was able to get a pretty much brand new Hublot that was a dealer showpiece at around 50% msrp....

Anyway, for the less sophisticated or first time buyer- they may overpay, but for sophisticated buyers I think there is an edge.

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by DVR

But when I buy a watch it is 'for me' to enjoy. And enjoyment is usually not free.
A fine wine is not free, a nice holiday is not free. Nice furniture is not free. We all accept that. But the new breed of watch collectors see it different when it comes to the things they supposedly like and admire.

I agree. I never bought a second "nice" watch with the idea that it would be "free." In a sense it's one of the downfalls of the current market that there is an arbitrage opportunity with a lot of PP and Rolexes to buy, enjoy and flip for 100%+ of your initial outlay.

I do think people tend to discount the opportunity cost of the funds involved in a huge collection, as well as the $1,000 - $2,000 servicing costs and perhaps the insurance costs. Those add up!

[AK797]

Originally Posted by DVR

Please stay honest, we all know about the discounts when buying new.
I like the game of getting a decent/fair discount when buying new.
But even at 20 off you still loose 30 when selling used.

Again, who is 'carrying' this 30% when you are able to buy pre-owned?
Not the 'collectors' who took over the watch hobby it seams.

And I will repeat, I have no problem with this mentality. I just don't get it.
When I buy an apartment block and renovate it , when I sell I expect to make a significant profit. But when I buy a watch it is 'for me' to enjoy. And enjoyment is usually not free.
A fine wine is not free, a nice holiday is not free. Nice furniture is not free. We all accept that. But the new breed of watch collectors see it different when it comes to the things they supposedly like and admire.


I am going to to stop posting in this thread as I do not want to make anyone feel bad.
It is what it is.

It's a curious point about what is an "acceptable" investment luxury, like fine art or high end property, and what is a depreciating luxury, like jewellery and watches and cars, esp now that some watches and cars seem to be transitioning from one to the other. It is similar to tipping, it is acceptable to tip in restaurants but not in McDonalds, societal norms may be changing and maybe we will have to pony up that extra to land that Big Mac.

[italiafan]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Who has a ferrari and a Bentley? Or do both of them have one?

Ferrari, no Bentley....Bentley is for status posers! LOL

[locutus49]

The collateral costs of insurance and servicing are a good point. Some people stretch their budget to buy a luxury watch not understanding these costs. Maybe we should point it out.

Originally Posted by Chiboy

I agree. I never bought a second "nice" watch with the idea that it would be "free." In a sense it's one of the downfalls of the current market that there is an arbitrage opportunity with a lot of PP and Rolexes to buy, enjoy and flip for 100%+ of your initial outlay.

I do think people tend to discount the opportunity cost of the funds involved in a huge collection, as well as the $1,000 - $2,000 servicing costs and perhaps the insurance costs. Those add up!

[ap1]

Originally Posted by locutus49

The collateral costs of insurance and servicing are a good point. Some people stretch their budget to buy a luxury watch not understanding these costs. Maybe we should point it out.

Who owns watches long enough to service

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by ap1

Who owns watches long enough to service

Sadly, that seems to sum things up succinctly for modern PP owners.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by ap1

Who owns watches long enough to service

I do, although I often wish I didn't.

[ts3]

Originally Posted by ap1

Who owns watches long enough to service

LOL... Service is typically a day one affair as I tend to give preowned pieces a fresh start at my house. Maybe OCD but I can't help it...

[Token74]

Interesting thread, not sure I know what to make of it all really.

I grew up poor and as someone that liked watches (aesthetically really) I dreamt of owning a Rolex. It was the pinnacle, and I aspired to one day be able to afford it, although in truth, I never believed it to be realistic.

By the time I could afford a Rolex, I no longer wanted one. I despised the brand for what it stood for and the reputation it has in the UK, one of the few things that still brings the word YUPPIE into the modern day dialogue.

But then I read about watches and learnt about the history of Rolex, and suddenly saw the company and the watches in a different light. And suddenly I once again wanted a Rolex, but for different reasons than before.

Sure, a Rolex is a status symbol and to some extent I’m proud of what I’ve achieved based on where I came from, and yet if someone asks me what watch I’m wearing I will use the model reference, deliberately avoiding the word Rolex! I am however happy to mention Patek and AP, as most people i mix with have never heard of either.

I tend to buy the popular models, Royal Oaks, Nautilus, Daytona, BLRO etc. but that’s simply because I like the sports watch style. The value retention aspect does allow me to have a bigger collection than I would otherwise be able to justify, and I’m not ashamed to say that. I don’t see watches as investments, but I do see them as assets I can cash in if need be.

There is a fair amount of snobbery here, almost as though us ‘newish’ collectors are a step below those that are long-time collectors. It’s similar to the old money folk looking down on new money folk - when frankly, I’m far prouder to be new money (that I’ve made myself) than I would be to be old money (that I’ve inherited).

I spend way too many hours on this forum, I spend every Friday night geeking out with a friend of mine in the pub, talking about watches, and i pop in to spend an hour with my AD every time I’m in town to have a nerd-off. Crikey, I’ve even made up a watch Top Trumps set that i play with my middle-aged friends when we have an all-day bender!! So I’d like to think that it’s more than just about status for me. But my collection perhaps suggests otherwise.

Back to where I started, not sure what to make of it all really!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RussW]

Originally Posted by Token74

Interesting thread, not sure I know what to make of it all really.

I grew up poor and as someone that liked watches (aesthetically really) I dreamt of owning a Rolex. It was the pinnacle, and I aspired to one day be able to afford it, although in truth, I never believed it to be realistic.

By the time I could afford a Rolex, I no longer wanted one. I despised the brand for what it stood for and the reputation it has in the UK, one of the few things that still brings the word YUPPIE into the modern day dialogue.

But then I read about watches and learnt about the history of Rolex, and suddenly saw the company and the watches in a different light. And suddenly I once again wanted a Rolex, but for different reasons than before.

Sure, a Rolex is a status symbol and to some extent I’m proud of what I’ve achieved based on where I came from, and yet if someone asks me what watch I’m wearing I will use the model reference, deliberately avoiding the word Rolex! I am however happy to mention Patek and AP, as most people i mix with have never heard of either.

I tend to buy the popular models, Royal Oaks, Nautilus, Daytona, BLRO etc. but that’s simply because I like the sports watch style. The value retention aspect does allow me to have a bigger collection than I would otherwise be able to justify, and I’m not ashamed to say that. I don’t see watches as investments, but I do see them as assets I can cash in if need be.

There is a fair amount of snobbery here, almost as though us ‘newish’ collectors are a step below those that are long-time collectors. It’s similar to the old money folk looking down on new money folk - when frankly, I’m far prouder to be new money (that I’ve made myself) than I would be to be old money (that I’ve inherited).

I spend way too many hours on this forum, I spend every Friday night geeking out with a friend of mine in the pub, talking about watches, and i pop in to spend an hour with my AD every time I’m in town to have a nerd-off. Crikey, I’ve even made up a watch Top Trumps set that i play with my middle-aged friends when we have an all-day bender!! So I’d like to think that it’s more than just about status for me. But my collection perhaps suggests otherwise.

Back to where I started, not sure what to make of it all really!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Vince - we haven’t sorted out a catch up with yourself and Chunky yet. When we do you’ll have to bring your top trumps

[soundserious]

Market determines price, now more than ever. MSRP is basically irrelevant nowadays. People have too much information to be duped by an AD.

That VC? Lange? I’ll offer ya 50% MSRP.

But if you want something that’s actually desirable and collectible...say a 15400 RO....prepare to pay a premium. Whether it’s in cash or an AD allowing you to pay retail but making you eat a 11:59 is irrelevant.