Bank Wire

[shredder]

Why do so many enthusiasts readily consent to use a bank wire for purchase payment? There is no advantage to the buyer and all the advantages to the seller.


If you have the option of spending an extra 2 or 3% get the transaction insured by PP or your CC, it seems like a no brainer. For example I see watches listen here by grey market sellers that don't seem to have any brick and mortar store who only accept bank wire while identical products can be found priced similarly from Brick and mortar stores who also accept CC and PP (for an extra fee).


I cannot imagine a more risky action of a purchaser, especially with a grey market seller without a brick and mortar store. I am usually happy to pay cash myself as long as I get to carefully 'inspect' the merchandise.



Several scenarios come to mind when using a bank wire that could go wrong after you 'wire' money;


Package gets lost, seller absolves himself of any responsibility.
Seller gets severely injured or dies before package.
Seller ghosts you and never sends package (unlikely, but still possible).
Seller sends you a package with no watch in it (this happened to me through ebay and ebay covered me 100%)

Watch is not authentic and seller says you did it.
You find out watch is not authentic years later and seller out of business or is not responsive.




I expect that while the economy and watch market is still strong, we see few problems. But, like the tide, when the economy or watch market slows, we will see more and more problems with bank wire transactions where the buyer is left eating the loss, whatever it may be.



Thoughts?

[sportsfan0704]

I agree completely. MAny here will tell you to “buy the seller” and that if it’s someone trustworthy, then the cost savings is worth it. I personally disagree with that sentiment. But to each their own and at the end of the day it’s your money and I think it’s very reasonable to seek the protection that comes from paying via card.

[ACepero]

Some sellers will offer a discount and no tax if you pay by bank wire. For those living in high sales tax areas of the country, the discount + the savings on the tax is enough to sway them towards directly wiring the funds to the seller.

I've been offered these discounts and savings on more than one occasion. Although extremely tempting to save a significant amount of money, I opted to pay with a CC or use paypal for the reasons you've outlined above - recourse.

[sensui]

Trust is a 2 way street. PayPal/cc favors the buyer in disputes and there are plenty of scams from the buyer side due to this. Bottom line, buy the seller and if you're bargain shopping, I'd make educated/good research based decision before trusting sellers with little/no feedback.

If you're not comfortable in any way, move on. I follow the same rule as both seller and buyer in transactions. I'd rather just pass.

[Pinchy]

Originally Posted by shredder

Several scenarios come to mind when using a bank wire that could go wrong after you 'wire' money;


Package gets lost, seller absolves himself of any responsibility.
Seller gets severely injured or dies before package.
Seller ghosts you and never sends package (unlikely, but still possible).
Seller sends you a package with no watch in it (this happened to me through ebay and ebay covered me 100%)

Watch is not authentic and seller says you did it.
You find out watch is not authentic years later and seller out of business or is not responsive.



Thoughts?

You are 100% correct but it's a two way street. Everything above, you must do what you can to weed out the seller is not a scammer.

From the sellers perspective, they need to be doing the same thing. Adding a reversible transfer mechanism adds a whole lot more risk to the transaction for the seller that are very difficult to resolve.

[ACepero]

I've been offered the option to pay by bank wire several times by brick and mortar and online-only sellers. In all instances, they've offered a discount + no tax on the transaction. On a 4-5 figure transactions and in high sales tax areas, that's a pretty significant amount and it can be cost effective to go that route.

Although extremely tempting, I've forgone the discount and no tax option in favor of using a credit card or paypal for the very reasons you've outlined - recourse.

[Brenngun]

Bricks and mortar are no guarantee you won't get stiffed but if you need that then do a little more digging and you'll find a few trusted sellers that also have it.

Keep in mind that it's all about trust and how you/they earn it. Purchase however you're comfortable.

[huncho]

wires make perfect sense if you're dealing with the trusted sellers here but not much sense if you're dealing with private sellers. you have more than enough info on the trusted sellers here to feel comfortable whereas they have nothing on you so all the risk would be on their side if they allow paypal/cc

if you feel uncomfortable to send a wire to a seller then obviously there are better sellers out there. plenty of stories here about how easy trusted sellers are to work with and how they will accommodate everything on your side at every step (returns if you're not happy or if something is not as described)

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by huncho

wires make perfect sense if you're dealing with the trusted sellers here but not much sense if you're dealing with private sellers. you have more than enough info on the trusted sellers here to feel comfortable whereas they have nothing on you so all the risk would be on their side if they allow paypal/cc

if you feel uncomfortable to send a wire to a seller then obviously there are better sellers out there. plenty of stories here about how easy trusted sellers are to work with and how they will accommodate everything on your side at every step (returns if you're not happy or if something is not as described)

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[GB-man]

It’s certainly not for the casual buyer.

As a seller you’re advertising and waving a flag that says scam me. Accepting wire only virtually ensures you won’t be scammed. I’ve sold maybe 30-40 watches here and never took anything but wire for payment.

In the beginning I had to do some face to face, accept some lower sale prices to work with dealers and even share information with buyers like my drivers license. Now I rarely if ever have people second guessing wiring me money for a watch. Trust is earned over the long run.

Large B+M can take CC and such because they do volume. The increase in customers covers the cost of the occasional fraudster apparently. That often comes with higher prices and overhead.

[airchitect]

Bank wire won’t happen with this kid either


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[pk552502]

I always pay with bank wire. I think it gives me more bargaining power and I'm able to negotiate lower prices for a quick and hassle free transaction. Although a lot of times with rolex there isn't much wiggle room due to tight margins. I also personally hate the idea of lining the pockets of the credit card companies. I think the credit card companies push the narrative that it's much more safe to use a credit card because it benefits them.

Of course, I only buy from reputable dealers and I think a reputable dealer will refund my money if I'm not happy with the purchase (although I never have tried to return a watch after purchase).

I think the only way you get screwed over paying with a wire is through an outright scam which I think I would be wise enough to identify through a proper vetting process.

[beshannon]

I will gladly wire to a business or person that I personally know

[MickCollins1916]

I have no problem wiring to a person I trust.

Likewise, I’ve had no problem taking certain steps to ensure buyers are comfortable buying via wire from me, as well as insisting on certain measures to ensure my own comfort when a buyer prefers paying via another method.

I met one gent in person to inspect my 14060m before sale; he paid via wire and loves the watch. Sold a YG DD OQ with wire payment last fall, and everyone was happy with the transaction.

Helps if everyone does their homework beforehand but makes for an easy transaction when that’s the case.

[shredder]

Originally Posted by huncho

wires make perfect sense if you're dealing with the trusted sellers here but not much sense if you're dealing with private sellers. you have more than enough info on the trusted sellers here to feel comfortable whereas they have nothing on you so all the risk would be on their side if they allow paypal/cc

So you 'trust' the seller.

What happens to your bank wire if they drop dead on the way to FEDEX?

What happens to your bank wire if the seller gets mugged and ends up unconscious in the emergency room sans their suitcase full or grey rolex(es)?

What happens when your grey dealer gets robbed and loses the watch you just wired 20,000dollars and has no insurance on his inventory? What is your recourse then?

i have found many shops allow transactions without sales tax regardless of payment type.


Given Chrono24 charges sales tax and a fee. But you can also just call the dealer directly to see if they will charge sales tax or not and what their credit card fees are. ( I got 2% on my last purchase. 2% is a great insurance rate IMO)

I also haven't found any of the 'single man' grey dealers here on TRF to be any cheaper than what I find on Chrono24 or cheaper than the shop TRF grey dealers. Too high, given the amount of risk you are taking with a non established company and a 'bank wire'. Like I said, many of the single person grey dealers here are just that, single persons who are charging exorbitant prices for their product with little to no business overhead. If something happens to that one person during your transaction, you likely are screwed if you sent them a bank wire. If someone wanted to convince me to send them a bank wire, the price for the product would have to have a significant cost savings to it compared to a grey B&M shop price. s. Like 10 or 20% cheaper, not 200 or 500 or 1000 dollars. And I just dont see it. YMMV

Also, I dont think bank wire has any legal advantage to avoid sales tax. If a seller says they are supposed to charge you sales tax, they are supposed to charge you sales tax regardless of payment. If they charge you sales tax for one form of payment and not another, they are not as trustworthy as you think.

Regardless, it is all about risk management, And while we can all do our best to keep transactions smooth, fair and amicable, bank wire will never be an option for me and a single man grey operation.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by shredder

So you 'trust' the seller.

What happens to your bank wire if they drop dead on the way to FEDEX?

What happens to your bank wire if the seller gets mugged and ends up unconscious in the emergency room sans their suitcase full or grey rolex(es)?

What happens when your grey dealer gets robbed and loses the watch you just wired 20,000dollars and has no insurance on his inventory? What is your recourse then?

i have found many shops allow transactions without sales tax regardless of payment type.


Given Chrono24 charges sales tax and a fee. But you can also just call the dealer directly to see if they will charge sales tax or not and what their credit card fees are. ( I got 2% on my last purchase. 2% is a great insurance rate IMO)

I also haven't found any of the 'single man' grey dealers here on TRF to be any cheaper than what I find on Chrono24 or cheaper than the shop TRF grey dealers. Too high, given the amount of risk you are taking with a non established company and a 'bank wire'. Like I said, many of the single person grey dealers here are just that, single persons who are charging exorbitant prices for their product with little to no business overhead. If something happens to that one person during your transaction, you likely are screwed if you sent them a bank wire. If someone wanted to convince me to send them a bank wire, the price for the product would have to have a significant cost savings to it compared to a grey B&M shop price. s. Like 10 or 20% cheaper, not 200 or 500 or 1000 dollars. And I just dont see it. YMMV

Also, I dont think bank wire has any legal advantage to avoid sales tax. If a seller says they are supposed to charge you sales tax, they are supposed to charge you sales tax regardless of payment. If they charge you sales tax for one form of payment and not another, they are not as trustworthy as you think.

Regardless, it is all about risk management, And while we can all do our best to keep transactions smooth, fair and amicable, bank wire will never be an option for me and a single man grey operation.

sounds like bank wires are not for you. luckily there are plenty of other options. i'll keep doing it as i'm comfortable with it and don't think about things like the guy i'm buying from suddenly dying tomorrow

[CFR]

BUYER. As a buyer, I prefer to wire funds if I know I'm getting a good deal, before someone else offers the seller more money or before the seller changes their mind entirely and decides to keep the watch. Too many flaky sellers out there that get cold feet. I do this only after vetting the seller, though. But if it's not a really exciting find or if I'm not getting a good discount by paying with a wire, I prefer to pay by credit card for all the obvious reasons.

SELLER. As a (very occasional) seller, wire transfers are the only form of payment I'll accept from buyers unless I know the person. I'm definitely not taking a personal check or any form of reversible or contestable payment like PayPal.

My preferences are largely due to temperament. I don't enjoy the transactional part of this hobby -- the process of selling and buying -- nearly as much as (a) the hunt and (b) the ownership (or parting company, if I'm selling), so I want to get the buying/selling part over with quickly and with finality. Also, I'm talking about watches that cost in the thousands, not hundreds. The (fixed) transaction costs of a wire transfer don't make as much sense for less expensive watches.

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by pk552502

I always pay with bank wire. I think it gives me more bargaining power and I'm able to negotiate lower prices for a quick and hassle free transaction. Although a lot of times with rolex there isn't much wiggle room due to tight margins. I also personally hate the idea of lining the pockets of the credit card companies. I think the credit card companies push the narrative that it's much more safe to use a credit card because it benefits them.

Of course, I only buy from reputable dealers and I think a reputable dealer will refund my money if I'm not happy with the purchase (although I never have tried to return a watch after purchase).

I think the only way you get screwed over paying with a wire is through an outright scam which I think I would be wise enough to identify through a proper vetting process.

I fully agree.

As long as you know that the seller is a reputable businessperson. Even if he or she drops dead on the way to fedex, most trusted sellers have an organization and fed ex comes to them to pick up insured packages or they have runners that do the shipping part. If your seller is driving to fed ex himself, you’ve got the wrong seller to wire money to if you don’t know him or her.

Also remember, if the deal is too good to be true, it is. Pay a premium to get a safe transaction with a safe seller and wire away.

On sales tax things are a bit more complex. Most sellers that are businesses selling to someone in state has to collect a sales tax and remit it to the state. If they don’t have a physical presence or do a certain volume of business in another state where the buyer is being shipped a watch, a general rule is that the buyer has to pay a use tax to his own state and the seller isn’t required to collect and report the tax. Each state has different nuances so know the risks you take buy buying a watch without paying a tax.

[GB-man]

If I dropped dead on the way to ship a watch my wife would refund you the money in full. This isn’t a conspiracy and we would never take money that doesn’t belong to us that’s an absurd scenario.

If you’re buying from someone like the TPG maybe that’s a realistic scenario lol

[EconTigerOrange]

Originally Posted by GB-man

If I dropped dead on the way to ship a watch my wife would refund you the money in full. This isn’t a conspiracy and we would never take money that doesn’t belong to us that’s an absurd scenario.

If you’re buying from someone like the TPG maybe that’s a realistic scenario lol

While his scenario may be highly unlikely to occur, it certainly isn’t absurd. Maybe in your case your wife has knowledge of your accounts, but there are spouses that are oblivious to their family’s finances.


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[Dan Pierce]

Bank wire funds would be the only way I'd sell a watch worth more than $1K. If my rep isn't good enough for prospective buyers, so be it.
dP

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by EconTigerOrange

While his scenario may be highly unlikely to occur, it certainly isn’t absurd. Maybe in your case your wife has knowledge of your accounts, but there are spouses that are oblivious to their family’s finances.


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I hear you. I just think it’s a far fetched scenario. In any instance if you don’t trust the seller 100% and know where to find them if things go south, don’t move ahead.

Paying by wire is not for the “green” buyer. It’s for people who have bought numerous watches, know the community and how to properly vet sellers.

The burden of proof regarding fiduciary trust lies with the seller. They must be able to prove to the buyer they are safe to deal with. Otherwise they provide no value regardless of their product or knowledge of watches.