FPJ CB .. What’s happening??!

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Yeah that’s honestly why I smell manipulation. When other items move like that in price it’s usually the result of some sort of publicity or wave of mass appeal.

We all know FPJ is special but I don’t see any clear genesis to this run.

Either journe is the only watchmaker with dress watches that are strong in the market or someone is playing geppetto.

I smell it too. Especially after I saw this video as well as heard some rumors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdvJ_K7vXTA

[jenniferjanef]

Originally Posted by GB-man

I don’t think any are overpriced except the bleu. If anything they are wildly underpriced on the market. You’d be a damn fool to pay 40k for a CB when you could get a split seconds for 5-10k more. Or a centigraphe. Or an optimum or resonance for 15-20 more

Look at Philippe Dufour Simplicity.. simple time only watch demanding exceptional premium. Hence imho complication is not a determining factor. Premium is always depends on supply and demand.

[MikeMike]

It is quite clear that WatchBox are controlling the Journe market. They are the ones pushing prices to the stratosphere.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

I smell it too. Especially after I saw this video as well as heard some rumors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdvJ_K7vXTA

I honestly don't think some of you understand FP Journe.

FP Journe make 600-700 mechanical watches in an ENTIRE year, of which there are less than 100 CBs. Plus, they have to prioritise certain models during each year, meaning less of other models get produced. An example for 2019 was the one year run of the Resonance, in which this was a major focus (therefore impacting capacity to produce other pieces).

Is it REALLY that difficult to believe that perhaps watches in general are increasing in popularity for reasons other than hype? There are many factors at play, not to mention a very long BULL market and incredibly low interest rates, which make luxury items such as expensive watches like FP Journe more attainable.

For FP Journe watches to increase in value the company only needs to attract 25-50 serious collectors in the entire world! Do you really think this is so difficult for a company that makes amazing watches to do? Don't you think there are Patek collectors who might come to love FP Journe as well (such as myself)? There are only around 2000 brass movement FP Journe pieces across ALL their models during this production period, so it's not that difficult for prices to move if serious collectors are trying to build a decent collection.

The fact that there were very public auction results for early Journes has of course increased the prices for similar pieces... what's so surprising about that? The same thing happens to other models and brands, so why not for FP Journe too?

Personally (and yes, it's all personal taste), I also don't view FP Journe watches as purely "dress" watches... they can be worn casually, a lot more so than A Lange & Sohne for example... not to mention that FP Journe has been making "Sports" models for years, which are included in that overall 600-700 watches a year.

If anyone would like to sell their brass movement or limited FPJ pieces feel free to contact me, I'm always happy to buy them off you at the market level :)

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by MikeMike

It is quite clear that WatchBox are controlling the Journe market. They are the ones pushing prices to the stratosphere.

I believe they support the market with a good number of pieces (which is getting less and less), and offer people who own FPJ a chance to trade/sell their pieces when many other dealers won't. I had a good look at their website and I don't see any rare pieces available for sale, so they certainly aren't publicly showing the pieces with high prices. In fact, I'd say all of their 36 pieces shown on their website are priced fairly. A standard Optimum at $60K and boutique version at $74K is very fair... in fact, most of the pieces they have for sale are sitting below the retail price.

Watchbox had nothing to do with the recent public auction results, and FPJ has been increasing in awareness (and therefore value) for several years now, so this isn't a sudden thing. Look at the last Souscription Tourbillon piece that sold, and how that price compares to the previous two that sold publicly... if a brand is increasing in popularity and awareness and isn't increasing production to match, it's not that difficult to see how "used" prices receive strong support!

[unknown]

Watchbox ???

I read more than once they have a huge stock and therefore are able to control the market. I'm from Europe and didn't knew watchbox, only the big ones in Germany, France, Belgium and the UK.

So I went to their site and searched for that huge stock. Well I hope they have a HUGE stock they do not put on their site because with only 35 pieces for sale ???
Really? There are collectors with more pieces.

Journe made probably 10.000 - 15.000 since 1999, well if you don't have at least 1000 of them you have absolutely no power at all

to be sure
you're all talking about this site, right ?

https://www.thewatchbox.com/watches/f-p--journe/

[MikeMike]

WatchBox have been buying up Journe watches for a number of years. They only ever list a small fraction of inventory on their website at a given time. At times, they pull stock and later on relist the watches at higher prices.

Journe demand may well be increasing (and that is great), but at the same time right now WatchBox are playing the leading role in increasing prices.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by eviperman

I honestly don't think some of you understand FP Journe.



FP Journe make 600-700 mechanical watches in an ENTIRE year, of which there are less than 100 CBs. Plus, they have to prioritise certain models during each year, meaning less of other models get produced. An example for 2019 was the one year run of the Resonance, in which this was a major focus (therefore impacting capacity to produce other pieces).



Is it REALLY that difficult to believe that perhaps watches in general are increasing in popularity for reasons other than hype? There are many factors at play, not to mention a very long BULL market and incredibly low interest rates, which make luxury items such as expensive watches like FP Journe more attainable.



For FP Journe watches to increase in value the company only needs to attract 25-50 serious collectors in the entire world! Do you really think this is so difficult for a company that makes amazing watches to do? Don't you think there are Patek collectors who might come to love FP Journe as well (such as myself)? There are only around 2000 brass movement FP Journe pieces across ALL their models during this production period, so it's not that difficult for prices to move if serious collectors are trying to build a decent collection.



The fact that there were very public auction results for early Journes has of course increased the prices for similar pieces... what's so surprising about that? The same thing happens to other models and brands, so why not for FP Journe too?



Personally (and yes, it's all personal taste), I also don't view FP Journe watches as purely "dress" watches... they can be worn casually, a lot more so than A Lange & Sohne for example... not to mention that FP Journe has been making "Sports" models for years, which are included in that overall 600-700 watches a year.



If anyone would like to sell their brass movement or limited FPJ pieces feel free to contact me, I'm always happy to buy them off you at the market level :)

You make some good points

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by MikeMike

WatchBox have been buying up Journe watches for a number of years. They only ever list a small fraction of inventory on their website at a given time. At times, they pull stock and later on relist the watches at higher prices.

Journe demand may well be increasing (and that is great), but at the same time right now WatchBox are playing the leading role in increasing prices.

Not at all, they are not a major reason for the price increasing... just read my other post, they are simply responding to the auction results, which is exactly what any business would do. If the auction market says a watch is worth $100K for example and you have one listed at $50K, wouldn't you pull it and then bring it back on at $100K to see if you can find another buyer at that level?

And as UNKNOWN said, FPJourne has is likely to have produced around 12-14K mechanical watches in the last TWENTY years, 2K of which are brass movements. Watchbox have 36 watches listed on their website, and none of them are special or unique pieces... to be honest, their pricing is very fair and reasonable, most below retail.

So where are Watchbox pumping the prices as it's certainly not on their website or on Chrono24/ebay (2 other places they list)? If they are offering rare pieces to collectors privately at what they believe to be market rates (which I know they do), there's nothing wrong with that... but it's certainly not done publicly which they could easily do!

[JR16]

Originally Posted by unknown

Watchbox ???

I read more than once they have a huge stock and therefore are able to control the market. I'm from Europe and didn't knew watchbox, only the big ones in Germany, France, Belgium and the UK.

So I went to their site and searched for that huge stock. Well I hope they have a HUGE stock they do not put on their site because with only 35 pieces for sale ???
Really? There are collectors with more pieces.

Journe made probably 10.000 - 15.000 since 1999, well if you don't have at least 1000 of them you have absolutely no power at all

to be sure
you're all talking about this site, right ?

https://www.thewatchbox.com/watches/f-p--journe/

I don’t know of another seller in the US who has larger stock than Watchbox. If I am mistaken, then please do let me know
as I would be seriously interested.


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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by JR16

I don’t know of another seller in the US who has larger stock than Watchbox. If I am mistaken, then please do let me know
as I would be seriously interested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I only see about 125 watches from Journe when looking on chrono24 as a whole so I would say 30-40 listed active is pretty substantial.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by JR16

I don’t know of another seller in the US who has larger stock than Watchbox. If I am mistaken, then please do let me know
as I would be seriously interested.


I hav eno clue but 35 is nothing or at least nothing to manipulate the market

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Originally Posted by GB-man

I only see about 125 watches from Journe when looking on chrono24 as a whole so I would say 30-40 listed active is pretty substantial.

indeed but again the same answer, with 35 pieces you do not controle the market
They even don't have a chronometre Blue right now

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by unknown

indeed but again the same answer, with 35 pieces you do not controle the market
They even don't have a chronometre Blue right now

Exactly, and yet again, no one here seems to be able to provide a link of them controlling and manipulating the market with "crazy" prices. All their current prices are fair and reasonable. Yes, they own other pieces that aren't listed, but it's certainly not hundreds of pieces.

If they were trying to control the market they'd have 50-100 CB's in stock and be releasing them one by one at $75K each to move the market even higher (especially with closed waiting lists)... why wouldn't you ask that if you had control of the market with very strong demand and 50+ of them in stock?

The fact is their stock of rare pieces has been reducing, not increasing, and they continue to sell their rarer pieces of which I have been offered many (at what I consider to be the current market values - and yes, market values are not easy to determine when production is so limited on so many pieces).

[GB-man]

Anyone here buying CB at today’s rates?

This is starting to sound just like the 5711 threads.

[GB-man]

Do any of you journe fanatics know if a rubber band can be fitted to the ti linesport split seconds?

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Anyone here buying CB at today’s rates?

I'm a die hard Journe fanatic...

Originally Posted by GB-man

This is starting to sound just like the 5711 threads.

And no, I am not.

[MikeMike]

Originally Posted by unknown

indeed but again the same answer, with 35 pieces you do not controle the market
They even don't have a chronometre Blue right now

They sold a Bleu last week for about $47k. And I believe they also sold another one a few weeks ago for around the same price. Once again, they have a LOT more than 35 Journe in their safes. This is not some random speculation, but from what they have admitted themselves and also confirmed to me personally from a few higher-ups in the company.

Irrespective of whether WatchBox control the Journe market, they like many of the large grays, only ever list a fraction of their inventory.

BTW, WatchBox now only list 29 Journe for sale. It is possible that six got sold in a few days, or maybe WatchBox have pulled a few watches and will re-list them at higher prices.

[GreenLantern]

$47k! Wow. That's incredible.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by MikeMike

They sold a Bleu last week for about $47k. And I believe they also sold another one a few weeks ago for around the same price. Once again, they have a LOT more than 35 Journe in their safes. This is not some random speculation, but from what they have admitted themselves and also confirmed to me personally from a few higher-ups in the company.

Irrespective of whether WatchBox control the Journe market, they like many of the large grays, only ever list a fraction of their inventory.

BTW, WatchBox now only list 29 Journe for sale. It is possible that six got sold in a few days, or maybe WatchBox have pulled a few watches and will re-list them at higher prices.

Every dealer on the planet would need to adjust prices as markets change very quickly for many different brands and models.

I see 33 FPJ listed on their website (not 29), so yes, it's more than possible they've sold 2-3 pieces and updated their website. They are a global company afterall.

And why would they list multiple versions of the same watch at the same time? Of course they have others in the safe, but it's not like they are asking unreasonable prices... they are less expensive than boutiques, and as a customer, I'd highly recommend them as a dealer.

I don't understand the big deal about this... my point is simply they are not responsible for raising the prices in the FPJ market, they are merely responding to the increased demand and limited supply. I'm someone willing to pay more for rare pieces today than 6 months ago... and I'm a collector, not a flipper or speculator.

[lanteanflux]

They just sold the steel 38mm octa reserve de marche at 57k usd within 24 hours of posting. That was probably mis priced

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by lanteanflux

They just sold the steel 38mm octa reserve de marche at 57k usd within 24 hours of posting. That was probably mis priced

Yes, I saw that when I made my previous post and my thought was...

"For a limited run of 38 pieces $57K is very inexpensive"

So I'm not surprised that has sold so quickly... and if they list another at a higher level, fair enough!

[lanteanflux]

Originally Posted by eviperman

Yes, I saw that when I made my previous post and my thought was...

"For a limited run of 38 pieces $57K is very inexpensive"

So I'm not surprised that has sold so quickly... and if they list another at a higher level, fair enough!

Yes my thought was it was right around fair market ie if I had the funds and bought it I wouldn’t think I’m losing a cent. There are 5 hopefuls listing a CB at 50+, a similar dangler for this piece would’ve been around 70 I think.

[MikeMike]

Originally Posted by eviperman

Every dealer on the planet would need to adjust prices as markets change very quickly for many different brands and models.

I see 33 FPJ listed on their website (not 29), so yes, it's more than possible they've sold 2-3 pieces and updated their website. They are a global company afterall.

And why would they list multiple versions of the same watch at the same time? Of course they have others in the safe, but it's not like they are asking unreasonable prices... they are less expensive than boutiques, and as a customer, I'd highly recommend them as a dealer.

I don't understand the big deal about this... my point is simply they are not responsible for raising the prices in the FPJ market, they are merely responding to the increased demand and limited supply. I'm someone willing to pay more for rare pieces today than 6 months ago... and I'm a collector, not a flipper or speculator.

Their Bleu prices are certainly not less than a Boutique:) Oh, when I search it shows 29 watches:
https://www.thewatchbox.com/search/?q=journe

[MikeMike]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

$47k! Wow. That's incredible.

The watch was either sold or was pulled. Only listed for a couple of days.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Anyone here buying CB at today’s rates?

This is starting to sound just like the 5711 threads.

Difficult ..
Said it once before abut 4 years ago a friend of mine wanted a 5711a list was close to 20K euro and grey it was 28 or so
He asked me what to do, getting one at the Ad took you about 5 years at that time but paying a 40% premium was imo stupid.

so I told him not to buy.

Seems I was very wrong, good thing is that he did buy one and while 28 was a lot today its a HUGE bargain


So, would I recommend to buy this Journe today at euro 45.000 , I honestly don'y know.
Probably not but it is VERY VERY Rare compared with those Aquanauts, Nautilus and mass produced steel sports rolexes ... So ...

45.000 euro is a lot today but what if they go to 70K ?
And worst case, you buy at 45 and they drop to 25 ... well that's exactly what will happen if you buy a new 45K JLC, Breguet, Blancpain, Zenith, and almost ALL the other brands from your AD

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by MikeMike

Their Bleu prices are certainly not less than a Boutique:) Oh, when I search it shows 29 watches:
https://www.thewatchbox.com/search/?q=journe

Ah, I'm quoting 33 for their international website, not their US one...



Interestingly, on all of those top models they are not the most expensive on the market... so again, these are reasonable prices in my view and all less than original retail.

That boutique exclusive Optimum is a bargain at $75K as they are discontinued and standard version costs more at the boutique.

As for the CB, they are a business, so they are simply offering CBs at a price they know they have buyers for... and as you'll note, they have none available for sale on their website or Chrono24.

Anyway, the market is the market, and it's always the buyer who sets the market, not the seller!

[Fat_ninja]

So happy I’m not in the mkt for an FPJ lol

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by unknown

Difficult ..
Said it once before abut 4 years ago a friend of mine wanted a 5711a list was close to 20K euro and grey it was 28 or so
He asked me what to do, getting one at the Ad took you about 5 years at that time but paying a 40% premium was imo stupid.

so I told him not to buy.

Seems I was very wrong, good thing is that he did buy one and while 28 was a lot today its a HUGE bargain


So, would I recommend to buy this Journe today at euro 45.000 , I honestly don'y know.
Probably not but it is VERY VERY Rare compared with those Aquanauts, Nautilus and mass produced steel sports rolexes ... So ...

45.000 euro is a lot today but what if they go to 70K ?
And worst case, you buy at 45 and they drop to 25 ... well that's exactly what will happen if you buy a new 45K JLC, Breguet, Blancpain, Zenith, and almost ALL the other brands from your AD

Fair points bruno. I would be hard pressed not to get something with a bit more going on like an optimum but I understand not everyone wants more.

[gilluminati204]

Although I'm not buying at this point price point, thankfully, I wouldn't sell mine at it either as to me it's worth way more than that.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.



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[BigAppleBill]

Over the past months I’ve been monitoring the availability of aluminum Centigraphe models as I’ve been interested in the possibility of picking one up. There have always been 3 or 4 preowned models available, mostly from WatchBox. Now there are none. The only one I found on C24 is now reserved. I think this would suggest the recent market moves are not just about the CB.