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Old 14 October 2017, 06:41 AM   #1
Bryant Park
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Patek theorists, haters, conspiracy buffs...

There are several threads that are ongoing that all fall under the above title. In one case the abhorrent behavior of one specific AD is being blamed on the brand. In another the brand is being described as out of touch with their new youth "target" market.

Before addressing these specific assertions let's consider what PPs primary goals are as a business and what strategies are being implemented to support this long term goal. First and foremost PP wants to safe guard the historic prestige and exclusivity associated with their iconic name. This is a generational business imperative not to be deviated from for short term gain. In order to do this they have stuck to a core strategy of producing in limited numbers, arguably the finest timepieces available for purchase by the public at large. I will speculate that very few people who own a PP purchased it as either their first watch or own it as their only watch. That said the target market is a slightly older, more informed or interested in timepieces, and affluent population. So why do these people buy them;

1) The WIS factor
2) Disposable income and want the best (To impress or remain below the radar)
3) Think of it as an investment
4) Culmination of a collection

I am sure there is some over lap and other reasons but by and large this is the case.

So now to the two bashing scenarios:

Blaming PP for a rogue AD taking advantage of extreme demand that has resulted from their creation of highly sought after watch that is being allocated to their most loyal customers. Wow kind of sounds like they are appealing to the exact target demographic, corporate strategy and motivations of their buying base. Hardly seems like they are doing the wrong thing unless you aren't an established customer. Only issue in question (and not really) is if the AD is a horrible representative of the brand. I strongly suspect PP would likely do something if they were made aware. Shifting the argument to it being a PP problem however is misguided and inconsistent with the facts. They are under no obligation to provide as many watches as they could sell. The goal is franchise value through exclusivity and maintaing and rewarding their loyal client base, both of which are achieved via the 5522.

In terms of not knowing how to deal with 20-30 somethings or being the brand of trust fund kids you are once again off base. The inclusion of Nautilus and Pilot watches is designed to appeal to the traditional 40-50 year old buyer that is their bread and butter, but who wants to sport a more youthful or different look. I hate to say it but if you are one of these 20-30 year olds they would love to have you on board now, but they are more than willing to wait for you to grow into it. They aren't competing with Apple watches, JLC, IWC or Rolex. They are competing with only one brand and that is the Patek legacy itself. Their sole goal is to remain at the apex of those that want the best. They won't ever have a guy in flip flops selling at their boutiques, you won't be able to order them on line, and you won't be able to get what you want based on a sense of entitlement. Patek will stay relatively constant but you will likely change with age and experience.

Just my views but reading post after post of people that disparage the brand on a Patek website seems like a huge waste for all involved. Thanks for reading and I hope I didn't offend anyone.
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Old 14 October 2017, 07:14 AM   #2
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Great post

Although if you’re talking about the Govberg 5522 debacle, I don’t remember the OP blaming Patek.
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Old 14 October 2017, 07:17 AM   #3
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Great post

Although if you’re talking about the Govberg 5522 debacle, I don’t remember the OP blaming Patek.
Indeed the OP seemed completely in the right and very stand up. I felt horrible for him. Later on several posts (non op) reference it as PP issue for producing low numbers, unfair to allocate, etc...
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Old 14 October 2017, 07:19 AM   #4
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Indeed the OP seemed completely in the right and very stand up. I felt horrible for him. Later on several posts reference it as PP issue for producing low numbers, unfair to allocate, etc...
OK, agreed
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Old 14 October 2017, 07:45 AM   #5
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Nice post - my thoughts exactly.

Whilst there are some issues with Patek - all in all for me they make the most collectible watches out there. Heritage, manufacturing expertise, deep secondary market and a clear identity differentiate the brand from all of its peers.

For me there are only two brands to collect - Rolex and Patek. Simple as that.
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Old 14 October 2017, 07:55 AM   #6
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Indeed the OP seemed completely in the right and very stand up. I felt horrible for him. Later on several posts (non op) reference it as PP issue for producing low numbers, unfair to allocate, etc...
for me at least it was not about producing low numbers as much as it was targeting new buyers per TS with a 600 piece LE which makes no sense. I like the low production numbers generally, but i also agree with bringing in the next generation of buyers as i think PP's age demo has been skewing older and older for a while and that isn't sustainable. I just think the 5522 was not the correct release to publicly state it was made to attract a new buyer as no one thought that was actually going to happen.
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Old 14 October 2017, 08:07 AM   #7
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I have been to Patek they have a loyal customer for life.
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Old 14 October 2017, 08:08 AM   #8
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for me at least it was not about producing low numbers as much as it was targeting new buyers per TS with a 600 piece LE which makes no sense. I like the low production numbers generally, but i also agree with bringing in the next generation of buyers as i think PP's age demo has been skewing older and older for a while and that isn't sustainable. I just think the 5522 was not the correct release to publicly state it was made to attract a new buyer as no one thought that was actually going to happen.
Tyler I take your point and the good news (I hope) is we are living longer. The reality is regardless of public statement the goal was to reward their loyalists, ad hype to the exhibition, and draw attention to the brand among non traditional buyers. I think they accomplished all of the above. If along the way they created some unfulfilled demand so much the better.

Public statements at a corporate level are intended to create a narrative that elicits a response. Disney always publicly states they are the most magical place in the world. They have gotten the intended response by it being considered child abuse not to take the pilgrimage there with your kids, but the only magic I experienced was my wallet being emptied while being surrounded by obese people eating turkey legs.
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Old 14 October 2017, 08:47 AM   #9
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Tyler I take your point and the good news (I hope) is we are living longer. The reality is regardless of public statement the goal was to reward their loyalists, ad hype to the exhibition, and draw attention to the brand among non traditional buyers. I think they accomplished all of the above. If along the way they created some unfulfilled demand so much the better.

Public statements at a corporate level are intended to create a narrative that elicits a response. Disney always publicly states they are the most magical place in the world. They have gotten the intended response by it being considered child abuse not to take the pilgrimage there with your kids, but the only magic I experienced was my wallet being emptied while being surrounded by obese people eating turkey legs.
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Old 14 October 2017, 09:42 AM   #10
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If you want fair then stick to the secondary market.
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Old 14 October 2017, 09:44 AM   #11
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In terms of not knowing how to deal with 20-30 somethings or being the brand of trust fund kids you are once again off base. The inclusion of Nautilus and Pilot watches is designed to appeal to the traditional 40-50 year old buyer that is their bread and butter, but who wants to sport a more youthful or different look. I hate to say it but if you are one of these 20-30 year olds they would love to have you on board now, but they are more than willing to wait for you to grow into it. They aren't competing with Apple watches, JLC, IWC or Rolex. They are competing with only one brand and that is the Patek legacy itself. Their sole goal is to remain at the apex of those that want the best. They won't ever have a guy in flip flops selling at their boutiques, you won't be able to order them on line, and you won't be able to get what you want based on a sense of entitlement. Patek will stay relatively constant but you will likely change with age and experience.
a bit of topic but......

Of course I would never want my salesman like this, but I would sure like to see a change in the demeanor of sales associates *towards* somebody dressed like this. and this is not only a PP thing, almost any AD that has 'nicer' brands seems to be like this. As if you need keys to their personal country club just to grace their floors. It's an INCREDIBLE turnoff for younger guys.

You know, when I first got into watches around 17-18, I just wanted to go to ADs and see different models in the flesh. Not even try them on, but just admire them in the cases, bothering nobody in particular....but of course be open to talking to a SA if they were bored/had no customers. All to learn more about brands and delve more into this world of watches. However, 90% of ADs literally scowl at any younger guy dressed mediocrely with perhaps only a Seiko or Citizen on his arm. All they can rely on at that age is the internet. To me, it's kind of a shame, especially with a brand like Patek, as he or she could be somewhat of a serious customer in the future.

*I will say though, there are ADs here and there, that are absolutely AMAZING. The less corporate, Mom and Pop type locations usually have this vibe. I prefer these type of ADs anyways as you feel absolutely zero pressure and they will spark up conversation not just to score a sale, but because it's a subject they enjoy conversing about.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:05 AM   #12
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Well I love my 5205R, it’s the best watch! But my most recent experience with my AD - who I specifically spent more $$$ to use - turned me off big time.

I went to my AD and found a 5712G. It looked good so I tried it on, wow very nice... but it wasn’t sitting that well on my wrist. Don’t worry the AD assured me, give it a week or two and the strap will adapt to your wrist and it will sit very nicely.

I believed them and so I bought that 5712G from the AD at the full MSRP, handing over my hard earned ca. $40,000.

A few days later and my wrist is really hurting, this watch is not comfortable! But I struggled on waiting for the ‘adaptation to my wrist’. Predictably it never came, the watch remained extremely uncomfortable despite trying alternative straps (composite, leather and XS).

I complained to the AD, and asked if there was anything that could be done - maybe a return and a credit against an alternative purchase? The AD said there was nothing they could do. So I had to sell to the trade and was lucky to only lose $5,000.

It was then that I realised the whole thing is BS. If you don’t get the luxury service what is the point? They could have given me credit against a different watch and I’d have bought something else and been committed for life! I am still in my mid 20s, that’s a lot of watches!!! Instead their crap treatment and dodgy sales techniques lost me as a customer for good.

The watches are fantastic, though way too expensive - like everything in Switzerland, even Big Macs. But buying from an AD is pointless, the additional luxury service is non-existent.

Do yourself a favour and save $$ buying from a secondary market participant so you can just enjoy the watch at the fair market price and forget about the people who run the ADs, it’s about the watches not the service - so pay only for the watch!
Sorry you are disappointed by your purchase. In fairness though when you posted about the purchase you mentioned that you brought your fiancé to the AD and she said "you definitely have to buy it". You also mention that you were appreciative of the dealer giving you a leather travel case and chocolates, and that you previously made an impulse buy of an AP.

It certainly does stink buying something and have it not live up to expectations. Is it fair on your part however to rely and or blame the salesperson for telling you that a strap will loosen over time? You are obviously an experienced buyer so you know that as you walk out the door with it on your wrist the watch looses value, yet your expectation is that the dealer should absorb the entirety of your bad decision financially?

I am sure my honest asssment will not thrill you but as a 20 year old buyer you are obviously successful and sophisticated enough to know that no dealer could remain in business if they allowed new watches out the door only to be fully returned as used watches at full price for store credit at the sole discretion of the buyer.

If you don't want to use an AD I don't question your decision as it's your money, but your rationale seems to suggest you (for listening to your fiancé) don't accept any responsibility for the purchase.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:10 AM   #13
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If you want fair then stick to the secondary market.
You edited your original comment? Kind of confirms the commitment issues:)
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:16 AM   #14
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You edited your original comment? Kind of confirms the commitment issues:)
Ha, well played! But sometimes personal grievances are better just said to the relevant people than aired to the online community, hence the edit.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:18 AM   #15
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I have mixed feelings about your post to be honest. I think the line between passion and loyalty for the brand get blurred/mixed a bit too much with $$. Should only the guys who spend the most be rewarded with limited editions? Maybe, but that certainly doesn't guaranty the watches end up with the most loyal customers.

I have a deep appreciation for the Patek brand and there is really only one other thing I consider sinking my money and many (many!) hours of time into and that is vintage rolex (which is a "brand" on its own) which does not compete with Patek evidently.

It's very hard (if not impossible) to get it right, and I believe Patek is trying to get it right, but the balance between actually allocating special watches to loyal long-time customers (and not JUST big spenders or literally grey market dealers who pose as "big spenders") is a challenge. I understand that Patek and ADs are in a business and it's fine to expect loyal customers to spend/invest in the brand (no issue there) but if it becomes only about that, then that's no good.

I feel lucky to have found an AD who I believe strikes a good balance but there seem to be a lot of games that get played out there in the market generally that are annoying for the collector. For example seeing sealed limited edition watches being sold on the grey market.... Like I said I believe the brand really is making an effort to make things right however so that is a big positive.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:18 AM   #16
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Ha, well played! But sometimes personal grievances are better just said to the relevant people than aired to the online community, hence the edit.
Fair and congrats on being well ahead at your age of most anyone I know on your collection. Very impressive honestly and from those you posted gorgeous pieces.

I am old enough that I am jealous of those that posses both fine watches and youth.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:24 AM   #17
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I have mixed feelings about your post to be honest. I think the line between passion and loyalty for the brand get blurred/mixed a bit too much with $$. Should only the guys who spend the most be rewarded with limited editions? Maybe, but that certainly doesn't guaranty the watches end up with the most loyal customers.

I have a deep appreciation for the Patek brand and there is really only one other thing I consider sinking my money and many (many!) hours of time into and that is vintage rolex (which is a "brand" on its own) which does not compete with Patek evidently.

It's very hard (if not impossible) to get it right, and I believe Patek is trying to get it right, but the balance between actually allocating special watches to loyal long-time customers (and not JUST big spenders or literally grey market dealers who pose as "big spenders") is a challenge. I understand that Patek and ADs are in a business and it's fine to expect loyal customers to spend/invest in the brand (no issue there) but if it becomes only about that, then that's no good.

I feel lucky to have found an AD who I believe strikes a good balance but there seem to be a lot of games that get played out there in the market generally that are annoying for the collector. For example seeing sealed limited edition watches being sold on the grey market....
Thomas I hear you and didn't mean to suggest PP always gets it perfect. I just think all things considered they do it extremely well given so many potentially competing interests. I get equally frustrated by some of the grey activity, but I think a lot of it results from individuals acting out of financial self interest. Hard for PP to regulate or control.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:27 AM   #18
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Thomas I hear you and didn't mean to suggest PP always gets it perfect. I just think all things considered they do it extremely well given so many potentially competing interests. I get equally frustrated by some of the grey activity, but I think a lot of it results from individuals acting out of financial self interest. Hard for PP to regulate or control.
I get it my friend. I/we all can tell you have a ton of love for the brand and we can find a lot of common ground. Obviously not easy in light of all the uncontrollable dynamics out there and the market is too big... to be continued with a scotch in hand one day perhaps.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:34 AM   #19
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When a dealer says "it will mold to your wrist later" that is a sales tactic and should not be interpreted as a warranty of any kind

Also, I don't see why anyone would walk into a Patek dealer with flip flops. Nobody should wear them unless at the beach or maybe in a gym shower
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:35 AM   #20
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Sorry you are disappointed by your purchase. In fairness though when you posted about the purchase you mentioned that you brought your fiancé to the AD and she said "you definitely have to buy it". You also mention that you were appreciative of the dealer giving you a leather travel case and chocolates, and that you previously made an impulse buy of an AP.

It certainly does stink buying something and have it not live up to expectations. Is it fair on your part however to rely and or blame the salesperson for telling you that a strap will loosen over time? You are obviously an experienced buyer so you know that as you walk out the door with it on your wrist the watch looses value, yet your expectation is that the dealer should absorb the entirety of your bad decision financially?

I am sure my honest asssment will not thrill you but as a 20 year old buyer you are obviously successful and sophisticated enough to know that no dealer could remain in business if they allowed new watches out the door only to be fully returned as used watches at full price for store credit at the sole discretion of the buyer.

If you don't want to use an AD I don't question your decision as it's your money, but your rationale seems to suggest you (for listening to your fiancé) don't accept any responsibility for the purchase.
Ah I see you replied In full to the original comment in any case. I don’t deny the validity of your comments, you make fair points. As I said, my personal grievances may not be relevant to the online community - i was unfortunate that the watch didn’t fit and this may create a strong bias which may or may not be justified - hence the decision to delete and keep the comments to myself.

However as you have replied, here are a brief summary of my (potentially excessively biased) thoughts:
(1) yes of course I accept responsibility for my purchase, hence a store credit or similar seemed a viable option, I am aware a refund would not be
(2) As a general rule, returns are a no go of course, but given the circumstances I would have thought the better business decision is to keep a long term customer happy
(3) I bought the watch on the advice given by the AD! I said I was unsure about the purchase as the steap was not comfy - the AD assured me that the strap would soften and sit comfortably - it did not. To me this is the key issue, I relied on their advice which proved incorrect.
(4) They did treat me well on the day and I had even put my name down for the 5170P, but I really felt the service was lacking when I had a serious issue with the watch - I.e that it was unusable! I had hoped spending the extra to shop with an AD would act as insurance in such situations.

Are my expectations unrealistic? I don’t know. I’m sure they could have given me store credit and sold the 5712G and still turned a fair profit! It would have meant a huge amount to me and would have kept me as a loyal customer to that store for life. But their choice.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:43 AM   #21
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Ah I see you replied In full to the original comment in any case. I don’t deny the validity of your comments, you make fair points. As I said, my personal grievances may not be relevant to the online community - i was unfortunate that the watch didn’t fit and this may create a strong bias which may or may not be justified - hence the decision to delete and keep the comments to myself.

However as you have replied, here are a brief summary of my (potentially excessively biased) thoughts:
(1) yes of course I accept responsibility for my purchase, hence a store credit or similar seemed a viable option, I am aware a refund would not be
(2) As a general rule, returns are a no go of course, but given the circumstances I would have thought the better business decision is to keep a long term customer happy
(3) I bought the watch on the advice given by the AD! I said I was unsure about the purchase as the steap was not comfy - the AD assured me that the strap would soften and sit comfortably - it did not. To me this is the key issue, I relied on their advice which proved incorrect.
(4) They did treat me well on the day and I had even put my name down for the 5170P, but I really felt the service was lacking when I had a serious issue with the watch - I.e that it was unusable! I had hoped spending the extra to shop with an AD would act as insurance in such situations.

Are my expectations unrealistic? I don’t know. I’m sure they could have given me store credit and sold the 5712G and still turned a fair profit! It would have meant a huge amount to me and would have kept me as a loyal customer to that store for life. But their choice.
Apologies as I responded to the original before you edited it. I would never have posted it (nor do I think the system would allow me to) if I knew your intent was for it not to be.

As to whether you were justified, who cares what I or anyone else thinks. It's your money and your experience.
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Old 14 October 2017, 10:57 AM   #22
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, but the only magic I experienced was my wallet being emptied while being surrounded by obese people eating turkey legs.

Hahaha



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Old 14 October 2017, 11:04 AM   #23
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Hahaha


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Old 14 October 2017, 11:05 AM   #24
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.


Lol.. man.. I've been dragged to disneyworld 3 times this year... THREE TIMES!!!!


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Old 14 October 2017, 11:06 AM   #25
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Apologies as I responded to the original before you edited it. I would never have posted it (nor do I think the system would allow me to) if I knew your intent was for it not to be.

As to whether you were justified, who cares what I or anyone else thinks. It's your money and your experience.
I think it’s actually good for me to hear opinions that maybe I was being unrealistic! I have been annoyed at the AD since that experience but maybe it’s unjustified, they did after all try ordering an alternative XS strap free of charge. Maybe they could have done more in a perfect world, but in a realistic world perhaps they did as much as you could hope. In any case I still love the watches
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Old 14 October 2017, 11:13 AM   #26
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In truth, I think Rolex and Patek have got it just plain wrong on some of their models. The crazy resale prices detail that perfectly and show how out of control they have let the situation become. And that is why there is growing discontent on all the forums and even here in our already exclusive club as we are being divided against into the haves and the insiders and the have nots and the outsiders. I don't like it, it is divisive and certainly not genius marketing, and anyone who thinks it is, is being played.
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Old 14 October 2017, 11:16 AM   #27
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In truth, I think Rolex and Patek have got it just plain wrong on some of their models. The crazy resale prices detail that perfectly and show how out of control they have let the situation become. And that is why there is growing discontent on all the forums and even here in our already exclusive club are we being divided against into the haves and the insiders and the have nots and the outsiders. I don't like it, it is divisive and certainly not genius marketing, and anyone who thinks it is, is being played.
You are completely and totally wrong about any divide or divisiveness
I hope you see what I did there Point taken.
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Old 14 October 2017, 11:18 AM   #28
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You are completely and totally wrong about any divide or divisiveness
I hope you see what I did there
You don't want to be the ninth person banned this week do you?
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Old 14 October 2017, 11:21 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by AK797 View Post
You don't want to be the ninth person banned this week do you?
That would be utterly hideous, my apologies.
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Old 14 October 2017, 11:25 AM   #30
AK797
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Real Name: Neil
Location: UK
Watch: ing ships roll in
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Originally Posted by Bryant Park View Post
That would be utterly hideous, my apologies.
The sad truth is money is now so much of what we talk about on the forum, before we used to try to avoid it as money talk is rather crude and we stuck to watch talk, but the dynamics have changed so much lately and greed, for lack of a better word, is not good for the forum.
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