Is there a brand that you think is superior to Patek Philippe?

[rebel_1]

Now that's it!

[landroverking]

I really think that depends on the model.
But yes overall top to bottom with price no consideration.
There are without a doubt.

[shnxx]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Very nice

[PJ S]

^
Yes it is – looks like a Hansgrohe Axor Uno faucet.
Oh sorry, I see what you’re referring to now – indeed, Rolex can make a half decent looking movement, when they put their mind to it.

[rebel_1]

Where is the movement you speak of?!

[nilfire77]

Originally Posted by Tony64

First let me congratulate you on your appreciation of Haute Horology, and for sharing such insightful commentary. I'd like to apologize for the inarticulate way that I expressed my own views on the subject, as they were clearly misinterpreted in your response.

While I share your appreciation for quality of finish, there are limits of resolution to which I subscribe. Viewed in proper lighting and acuity, I would expect perfection from my timepiece, front, back, and side, discounting of course the inevitable marks incurred though my years of enjoyment.

What isn't important to me however, are imperfections observed under extreme magnification that I will never see or appreciate.
So as to avoid further confusion, please allow me to illustrate my point over the next 3 posts.

Imagine a day a the beach with your supermodel girlfriend...

Dude, you are taking things out of context with your "supermodel girlfriend" example here..

We aren't talking about microscopic details on a watch movement.. The details that those macro shots provided are details that we can see using a NORMAL loupe.. Meaning loupes used by watchmakers, watch boutique staffs and customers.. Loupes that people use to look at watch dials and movements.. Yes, that's right, it's a loupe and not a microscope.

I'm sure most people will have no qualms about cheaper watch brands doing less than fantastic finishing jobs, but we are talking haute horlogerie here... PP is haute horlogerie, no less.. So I think it's only fair to expect certain finishing standards when we pay serious coins for a timepiece like PP..

Happy for you that you are easily satisfied and have low expectations for PP's finishing standards.. But trust me, your taste and expectations will change as you gain more insights in the world of horology.

In a nutshell, it's about what we value in things. For you, you may now only value the brand and prestige of a PP watch and nothing else is important. But for me, I value hand finishing in watchmaking because I truly respect the amount of painstaking efforts and excellent craftsmanship delivered by the watchmakers from the finishing department and it shows through those nicely polished bridges and bevels when viewed under a loupe.

[el1125]

Originally Posted by nilfire77

Dude, you are taking things out of context with your "supermodel girlfriend" example here..

We aren't talking about microscopic details on a watch movement.. The details that those macro shots provided are details that we can see using a NORMAL loupe.. Meaning loupes used by watchmakers, watch boutique staffs and customers.. Loupes that people use to look at watch dials and movements.. Yes, that's right, it's a loupe and not a microscope.

I'm sure most people will have no qualms about cheaper watch brands doing less than fantastic finishing jobs, but we are talking haute horlogerie here... PP is haute horlogerie, no less.. So I think it's only fair to expect certain finishing standards when we pay serious coins for a timepiece like PP..

Happy for you that you are easily satisfied and have low expectations for PP's finishing standards.. But trust me, your taste and expectations will change as you gain more insights in the world of horology.

In a nutshell, it's about what we value in things. For you, you may now only value the brand and prestige of a PP watch and nothing else is important. But for me, I value hand finishing in watchmaking because I truly respect the amount of painstaking efforts and excellent craftsmanship delivered by the watchmakers from the finishing department and it shows through those nicely polished bridges and bevels when viewed under a loupe.

The question that was asked by the OP: is there a brand that is superior to Patek Philippe? What tangent are you going off on? What is your answer to THIS question? Do you have one?? That is what was asked??

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by nilfire77

But for me, I value hand finishing in watchmaking because I truly respect the amount of painstaking efforts and excellent craftsmanship delivered by the watchmakers from the finishing department and it shows through those nicely polished bridges and bevels when viewed under a loupe.

Thank you for saying what needed to be said. The more I found myself admiring the best micro-mechanical engineering and finishing work... Something has truly become amiss with modern Pateks, including more than just the movement finishing. Any longtime admirer, or professional expert, can easily see the problems and not simply be blinded by a nameplate that once, long ago, stood for excellence.

Hopefully many here seek out finer crafted mechanic works of art, as there are quite a few impressive craftspeople and small companies that cater to those who appreciate the finest mankind can offer.

The market is moving fast, and am impressed with the creativity of many independents. Never before has so many impressive pieces, and diversity, been available. Just as some might choose Bose audio because they think it is the best, once they take the time to research and listen... Bose is a bit above average, yet very far from excellence as compared to the best available.

Guess the bottom line is that this thread will hopefully get some here to step back and look at the landscape. Open their minds to alternatives. And to hopefully find a finer appreciation for what is truly possible in mechanical timepieces within today's marketplace. Don't worry, the mass produced Pateks will be around for many years and easy to find online if you still insist.

[el1125]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thank you for saying what needed to be said. The more I found myself admiring the best micro-mechanical engineering and finishing work... Something has truly become amiss with modern Pateks, including more than just the movement finishing. Any longtime admirer, or professional expert, can easily see the problems and not simply be blinded by a nameplate that once, long ago, stood for excellence.

Hopefully many here seek out finer crafted mechanic works of art, as there are quite a few impressive craftspeople and small companies that cater to those who appreciate the finest mankind can offer.

The market is moving fast, and am impressed with the creativity of many independents. Never before has so many impressive pieces, and diversity, been available. Just as some might choose Bose audio because they think it is the best, once they take the time to research and listen... Bose is a bit above average, yet very far from excellence as compared to the best available.

Guess the bottom line is that this thread will hopefully get some here to step back and look at the landscape. Open their minds to alternatives. And to hopefully find a finer appreciation for what is truly possible in mechanical timepieces within today's marketplace. Don't worry, the mass produced Pateks will be around for many years and easy to find online if you still insist.

If I'm not mistaken, You also didn't answer the OPs question...You must have been greatly burned by Patek in some way, I guess...Sorry abt that....So what watches/brands do you own? Have you been collecting for a while? Do you own any independents like the ones you are mentioning? How are the prices/values on those? Any pics? Do you have any positive things to say about the brand? or you just enjoy coming into the Patek forum and put the brand down?

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by nilfire77

Dude, you are taking things out of context with your "supermodel girlfriend" example here..

We aren't talking about microscopic details on a watch movement.. The details that those macro shots provided are details that we can see using a NORMAL loupe.. Meaning loupes used by watchmakers, watch boutique staffs and customers.. Loupes that people use to look at watch dials and movements.. Yes, that's right, it's a loupe and not a microscope.

I'm sure most people will have no qualms about cheaper watch brands doing less than fantastic finishing jobs, but we are talking haute horlogerie here... PP is haute horlogerie, no less.. So I think it's only fair to expect certain finishing standards when we pay serious coins for a timepiece like PP..

Happy for you that you are easily satisfied and have low expectations for PP's finishing standards.. But trust me, your taste and expectations will change as you gain more insights in the world of horology.

In a nutshell, it's about what we value in things. For you, you may now only value the brand and prestige of a PP watch and nothing else is important. But for me, I value hand finishing in watchmaking because I truly respect the amount of painstaking efforts and excellent craftsmanship delivered by the watchmakers from the finishing department and it shows through those nicely polished bridges and bevels when viewed under a loupe.

This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?

[subtona]

If not for Patek paving the way, would any of these independent brands be able to enter the haute horology market at the price points they seek?

[enjoythemusic]

Am relaxing with Rolex timepieces for now. My more active lifestyle due to moving to the beach means I need durability. Patek treated me fairly well actually, yet my friends are not admiring the long service times.

Other brands have already been mentioned on this thread.

Been collecting for about 25 years.

I'd like to have a few from independents, yet am investing elsewhere.

Vintage Pateks can be good value if purchased correctly. Still have one for tux events.

The OP asked about superior to, so can of worms opened. Patek can do impressive work today, yet seems they reserve it for the ultra-rare timepieces. If you've been following my posts, you've also seen where I hope they get back to where they once were. They have the capability if efforts are made. It might mean producing fewer timepieces as they did long ago. How many here remember Patek's attention to details, and customer service, about 20 years ago as compared to today.

Louis Vuitton suffered greatly during the boom years of 2005 to 2008 and still... That's another matter.

Perhaps it is me, as I see lost potential. Patek could be so much more in even the 'basic' ways. Perhaps if they bring back some employees or ???? who understood....

Maybe one day we'll look back on these years of Patek like, say, some cigar smokers look back at the lower quality control and plugged cigar problems during the boom years of 1999 to about 2001.

Louis Vuitton has made some very good efforts to get back to higher quality they were long known for. Patek has plenty of time, yet am sure we'd all agree sooner is better than later. They *can* produce truly exceptional timepieces, and this is something am sure we all agree. The question is, how many of such truly high quality timepieces can be produced per year while maintaining, in a timely manner, those they have previously sold.

Nothing is perfect, yet Patek should strive for perfection at every step.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by subtona

I Would prefer the nautilus without a see through case back, the 324 movement is not that impressive

Perhaps that is the entire point of the thread. Quality standards are slipping. PP should never have given us the opportunity to make comments like this.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Hollister

Perhaps that is the entire point of the thread. Quality standards are slipping. PP should never have given us the opportunity to make comments like this.

I do not believe that to be accurate at all, the 324 movement has been around by 1 name or the other for a long time, I never found it that impressive but It may be better now than it was in function if not in finishing.


Here is a link to this dufour simplicity for any of the folks following the thread, it may clear up some things, it seems to be the resource most of the experts are getting their info from. ...
https://monochrome-watches.com/colle...ur-simplicity/


the article refers to dufour as the "pinnacle of watchmaking."
I believe This would have been a much different discussion but it is not what the op has asked.


Ps here is another link that answers many of the technical questions I was interested to know

http://ninanet.net/watches/others08/...s/mdufour.html

Another link with an interview
http://www.europastar.com/1000476650/

I look forward to reading the articles in detail but to keep things in perspective, I am off to an annual ceremony to recognize some heroes of a different sort right now, the type that rescue people in imminent peril.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by subtona

...it seems to be the resource most of the experts are getting their info from.

[…snip...]

…I am off to an annual ceremony to recognize some heroes of a different sort right now, the type that rescue people in imminent peril.

WTF is with all the pomposity and antagonistic attitude on here lately?
If it’s not you (now) Gus, it’s Elliott or Paul, with Martin throwing in his sarky tuppence worth, for good measure.


With regards to the ceremony you’re attending, I’ve always thought that beach and pool lifeguards are highly under-appreciated by society. It’s good to hear they’re finally getting some recognition.

[TheYoungConnoisseur]

AP has the best quality control ive seen

[HL65]

Guys this is getting old...I am about to close this thread and if people can't be civil and mindful then we will start doling out infractions. This is a forum where people are here out of passion and love for watches. We have always been friendly and got along as a community. As of late it has gotten out of hand and enough is enough.

[Hollister]

Originally Posted by subtona

I do not believe that to be accurate at all, the 324 movement has been around by 1 name or the other for a long time, I never found it that impressive but It may be better now than it was in function if not in finishing.


Here is a link to this dufour simplicity for any of the folks following the thread, it may clear up some things, it seems to be the resource most of the experts are getting their info from. ...
https://monochrome-watches.com/colle...ur-simplicity/


the article refers to dufour as the "pinnacle of watchmaking."
I believe This would have been a much different discussion but it is not what the op has asked.


Ps here is another link that answers many of the technical questions I was interested to know

http://ninanet.net/watches/others08/...s/mdufour.html

Another link with an interview
http://www.europastar.com/1000476650/

I look forward to reading the articles in detail but to keep things in perspective, I am off to an annual ceremony to recognize some heroes of a different sort right now, the type that rescue people in imminent peril.

I hadn't seen your first link, thanks for posting it. I wouldn't describe myself as an expert on watches, I'm always ready to learn, but the Lange/PP/Chopard photographic comparison upthread doesn't require any expertise, just the Mark 1 eyeball.

I'm not easily offended (I'm a hospital consultant in the UK at present, and I've had far worse at work) and so I will let some of your other remarks slide by. I don't know whether a career in hospital medicine for over 30 years counts as saving people in peril?

[dom007]

I followed this thread for a while... Now I am run out of popcorn...

[subtona]

Not sure why some are taking things personally nor do I understand the personal attacks which I continue to let slide.

My last post provided what i believe was informative links and what was meant to be a reminder that we are talking about watches. I didn't discount anyone's Mission in their personal life, I am sure you are all fine gentleman with substantial accomplishments in your field.

[G r a y s o n]

I am going to leave my sport watches to Rolex and leave the grand complications for Patek.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by HL65

Guys this is getting old...I am about to close this thread and if people can't be civil and mindful then we will start doling out infractions. This is a forum where people are here out of passion and love for watches. We have always been friendly and got along as a community. As of late it has gotten out of hand and enough is enough.

[Hollister]

What is the German word for "disingenuous"? I can never recall it.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by G r a y s o n

I am going to leave my sport watches to Rolex and leave the grand complications for Patek.

Wiser words were never spoken, welcome to the forum!
.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Hollister

What is the German word for "disingenuous"? I can never recall it.

unaufrichtig

[Hollister]

Thanks.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by nilfire77

But for me, I value hand finishing in watchmaking because I truly respect the amount of painstaking efforts and excellent craftsmanship delivered by the watchmakers from the finishing department and it shows through those nicely polished bridges and bevels when viewed under a loupe.

You just have to understand that PP does 100% perfect hand finishing on only their top products, that's it, so unless I was to get a Dufour, Voutilainen or a top PP, I would just NOT look at the movement with a loupe as I know I will be disappointed, so either you're ok with having a movement that looks great to the naked eye but not with any magnification, or you put much more money, yeah I know, it's tough, I was also disappointed the first time I looked at a 240 movement with the macro, but when I had mine I didn't see at all any problems on it, and for the guy who put a Daytona movement, sorry but I saw at Rolex movements in real, and they didn't look at all like this, that movement has clearly been hand finished to look perfect, but if you take your Daytona and make macro pics, I basically guarantee they won't look like that...

Would be interesting to see macro pics of old Nautilus movements to see if they had the same level as nowadays or were better, of course at the time Patek did much less watches, the movements were outsourced, so they had more time to finish them better than now, but again what you can't see with the naked eye matters little IMO...

Originally Posted by G r a y s o n

I am going to leave my sport watches to Rolex and leave the grand complications for Patek.

Yeah well I'll take basically any Nautilus over any Rolex any day of the week, but to each his own

[lapince]

Originally Posted by HL65

Guys this is getting old...I am about to close this thread and if people can't be civil and mindful then we will start doling out infractions. This is a forum where people are here out of passion and love for watches. We have always been friendly and got along as a community. As of late it has gotten out of hand and enough is enough.

[murcielago_boy]

Originally Posted by TheYoungConnoisseur

AP has the best quality control ive seen

I'll agree to disagree.
The watch is made to a lower standard in any event IMO which means that QC is necessarily less rigorous.
Just my 2c.

[Dr C]

Superiority as said is subjective. To me superiority is an ability to hold and or increase in value over generations which Patek and then Rolex are the most prominent in that department. This to me shows that they are the most coveted, therefore the most superior timepiece brands. Like Vintage Ferrari is in the automobile world, Château Margaux in wine and Picasso for art.