Are some sellers misleading buyers ?

[116710er]

I definitely agree that some sellers (trusted of otherwise) WAY over-grade their watches. It's also simply dishonest when they leaving out pertinent information/photos. My first transaction on TRF didn't go as well as it should have. The seller left out a photo of the case back which ended up having some light (but easily visible) scuffs on it. There was also a very, very slight but undisclosed ding but in all fairness, I'm not sure the seller knew it was there as you could only see it with direct lighting and you'd have to be moving the watch at an odd angle for the light to catch it. I ended up working out "middle of the road" solution with the seller but I don't think I'd do another deal with that seller. Luckily, my transaction here since then have been stellar (granted, the majority were FTF which eliminates a LOT of pitfalls)

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

I have seen this too, and thought it was a second ad for the same watch due to being bumped too many times. Is this not the case?

From the sale forum sticky https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=9423

Upon completion of a transaction, the seller or buyer should post a message to that effect.

[Calatrava r]

In this listing there was good photos. There may have been a point to this thread had there been no photos and the buyer was relying solely on the seller's description of the watch. All the folks who posted saw the true condition of the watch from the photos given. Nothing was hidden even the bent this or that. Were the photos misleading in any way? If a seller gives good photos of the entire watch, the cosmetic condition is objectively known. How one chooses to characterize the condition is open to interpretation.

[RichM]

The pictures tell the story. Buyer beware.

[NKflyer]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I've seen the T<25 on these dials, but don't recall if they were P ser#. Do you think this might be a franken?

Yes, might be. The factory serti's came out around 1990, I think? So there are "T<25" serti dials for sure but not appropriate for the early 2000's. While not a crime to convert your black or root beer 16713 to a serti using an earlier dial, it is another grey area with disclosure in this ad, assuming the seller even realizes. Some trusted sellers are not as watch savvy as one might think, combined with the fact that they handle dozens of watches for sale, often for only the briefest periods of time. Honest mistakes or oversights can be made.

[The Libertine]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

In this listing there was good photos. There may have been a point to this thread had there been no photos and the buyer was relying solely on the seller's description of the watch. All the folks who posted saw the true condition of the watch from the photos given. Nothing was hidden even the bent this or that. Were the photos misleading in any way? If a seller gives good photos of the entire watch, the cosmetic condition is objectively known. How one chooses to characterize the condition is open to interpretation.

Totally agree.

Unless the watch is listed as - and clearly is - BNIB, with stickers still applied, the watch should be considered worn. A worn watch will show some degree of use. Thus, a description of mint, near mint, excellent or very good condition should taken in conjunction with the posted pictures. How a seller chooses to describe the watch is subjective, but the pictures are objective in the state of condition.

This is basic common sense.

[Syed117]

Originally Posted by RoyalOac

I really don't want to bring this up but a very trustworthy TRF seller, big time guy with enormous credibility here... I purchased 3 watches with him in the past and all three came in worse condition than advertised and pictured. I examined the photos closely and being in the graphic arts field I can tell the images were photoshopped using the healing tool, along with other photo manipulation. The latest had a pretty clear scratch on the bezel at 9 oclock even a Nokia phone would be able to capture, along with othe random scratches but in the photos it was a mirror finish almost BNIB-like. I don't know how ethical this is and if it's in my place to divulge who this dealer is. I saved all the photos originally posted by said seller as well.

No point in making those kinds of accusations without backing them up.

It doesn't help anyone.

Why would you buy a second and then third watch from someone you claim manipulated pictures and sent watches in worse condition than advertised?

[AK797]

Originally Posted by RoyalOac

I really don't want to bring this up but a very trustworthy TRF seller, big time guy with enormous credibility here... I purchased 3 watches with him in the past and all three came in worse condition than advertised and pictured. I examined the photos closely and being in the graphic arts field I can tell the images were photoshopped using the healing tool, along with other photo manipulation. The latest had a pretty clear scratch on the bezel at 9 oclock even a Nokia phone would be able to capture, along with othe random scratches but in the photos it was a mirror finish almost BNIB-like. I don't know how ethical this is and if it's in my place to divulge who this dealer is. I saved all the photos originally posted by said seller as well.

No seller is too big, and there can be no sacred cows here. If you have a genuine issue and can back it up with pics etc, then tell your seller. They are not stupid and will probably come to an agreement with you on a resolution rather than have you start up a negative thread.

[ras47]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

I have seen this too, and thought it was a second ad for the same watch due to being bumped too many times. Is this not the case?

Separate listings. Sometimes a seller will use a shill account to list the same watch a second time. Different user names, exact same watch. Pathetic and dishonest.

[RoyalOac]

Originally Posted by Syed117

No point in making those kinds of accusations without backing them up.

It doesn't help anyone.

Why would you buy a second and then third watch from someone you claim manipulated pictures and sent watches in worse condition than advertised?

First two watches were fora friend who is here in the States under student Visas awaiting his citizenship and was legally advised not to transfer large funds. I was the person who did the transaction. As to why I would keep purchasing is because the same friend did not mind the misrepresentation as to him it was 'a minor issue' and he was glad that he was even able to get the transaction done. As for the third, it was for me personally and which is why I am bringing it up now, because it was a recent deal ( the past month ).

As to backing it up, I can back it up, but I don't see if it's in my place to do so, as it may ruin someone's reputation. Although it'll probably be the last time I'll be doing deals with this seller, I do owe him the respect too as he was very accommodating throughout those 3 deals. Being a business owner myself, I'd like to be a gentleman in these things and just walk away to another seller.

Originally Posted by AK797

No seller is too big, and there can be no sacred cows here. If you have a genuine issue and can back it up with pics etc, then tell your seller. They are not stupid and will probably come to an agreement with you on a resolution rather than have you start up a negative thread.

I never started a negative thread, and was just contributing to the thread started by the OP.

[haven_seeker]

Originally Posted by RoyalOac

First two watches were fora friend who is here in the States under student Visas awaiting his citizenship and was legally advised not to transfer large funds. I was the person who did the transaction. As to why I would keep purchasing is because the same friend did not mind the misrepresentation as to him it was 'a minor issue' and he was glad that he was even able to get the transaction done. As for the third, it was for me personally and which is why I am bringing it up now, because it was a recent deal ( the past month ).

As to backing it up, I can back it up, but I don't see if it's in my place to do so, as it may ruin someone's reputation. Although it'll probably be the last time I'll be doing deals with this seller, I do owe him the respect too as he was very accommodating throughout those 3 deals. Being a business owner myself, I'd like to be a gentleman in these things and just walk away to another seller.



I never started a negative thread, and was just contributing to the thread started by the OP.

If you have a case, then go ahead and post, either here or in your own proper thread. It's when you don't have a case that people will crush your claims and allegations - as well they should if you post and have nothing to back it up.

SO if you have a case, you're doing the right thing by posting the details. You don't need anyone's permission to do this. But if you say something and can't back it up, there will be consequences!

Hopefully that helps.

[lawrenceb]

the whole polish/ un polish banter is absolutely silly.. OP is correct, there are sellers that list and say "never polished" and clearly the watch has been.. and some of the those sellers dont know the difference between a polished watch and an unpolished one.

No one knows everything, watch forums and google create instant experts.. none of us are perfect and none of us know everything. Buy your seller before you buy your watch.... ask questions and ask for pics if you doubt something. The vast majority of regular sellers will do the right thing and make a deal right. However if you buying from new seller or piece thats some amazing deal then you are taking a risk.

Bottom line if you want perfect, little to no chance of issues and recourse (return/chargeback), buy new at an AD.. you dont get much of deal but sometimes you cant put a price on piece of mind.

[Runnin' Rebel]

Originally Posted by lawrenceb

the whole polish/ un polish banter is absolutely silly.. OP is correct, there are sellers that list and say "never polished" and clearly the watch has been.. and some of the those sellers dont know the difference between a polished watch and an unpolished one.

No one knows everything, watch forums and google create instant experts.. none of us are perfect and none of us know everything. Buy your seller before you buy your watch.... ask questions and ask for pics if you doubt something. The vast majority of regular sellers will do the right thing and make a deal right. However if you buying from new seller or piece thats some amazing deal then you are taking a risk.

Bottom line if you want perfect, little to no chance of issues and recourse (return/chargeback), buy new at an AD.. you dont get much of deal but sometimes you cant put a price on piece of mind.

Hi Larry,
Im glad you responded as you are one of the good sellers reputation IMO. One of the reasons I started the thread was that the seller said "might of been polished".


Im like clearly it was deceiving to me as the lugs are round, spring bar holes are distorted by the looks and then other issues poped up and I thought this to be a learning experience, but other members defended the seller or I had blow back from them for showing the watch listing outing the seller.

I was trying to ask honest questions hoping someone with more knowledge would chime in and some did. Again, I never made an offer but was thinking about the wording didn't really correspond with pictures. I didn't see the bent 24 hour hand but did notice the clasp crown polish almost off but listed as good condition but forgot to mention it. Another warning sign.

Someone put up a condition guide on a earlier post in this thread which is just that, a guide but it helped. I doubt the seller even knows this thread is here unless they were emailed or PM and I hope they rewrite the listing and fix issues.

I've had this reference and it was mint although light polish when I bought it.. here's my watch and it had service papers it was a stunning watch

Anyway if it saved someone from an aggravating purchase all the better. I wonder what would've happened if another person bought it and 2 weeks later noticed the bent hand ? You think the seller would make it right ? I don't know as a buyer of it I would've went ballastic. Because someone knew the hand was bent, photographer or seller knew.

Haters gonna hate... just pass next time instead of correcting an injustice... god forbid it happens to some of you

EDIT: one other point is all my P serial numbered Rolex had Swiss Made at 6. Now was there a carry over from what that one has. I'm not sure. Maybe a service dial ? Switch out, transition dial ?

Ok I'm done with this

[AK797]

Originally Posted by RoyalOac

First two watches were fora friend who is here in the States under student Visas awaiting his citizenship and was legally advised not to transfer large funds. I was the person who did the transaction. As to why I would keep purchasing is because the same friend did not mind the misrepresentation as to him it was 'a minor issue' and he was glad that he was even able to get the transaction done. As for the third, it was for me personally and which is why I am bringing it up now, because it was a recent deal ( the past month ).

As to backing it up, I can back it up, but I don't see if it's in my place to do so, as it may ruin someone's reputation. Although it'll probably be the last time I'll be doing deals with this seller, I do owe him the respect too as he was very accommodating throughout those 3 deals. Being a business owner myself, I'd like to be a gentleman in these things and just walk away to another seller.



I never started a negative thread, and was just contributing to the thread started by the OP.

I know, I was just saying this recourse is open to you and all members, esp if you feel hard done by. The last thing we want is TS thinking they are untouchable, they are certainly not and everyone gets lazy and complacent at times so they all need to be held to account.

[ras47]

Here's an example of the same watch being listed twice. Notice that the seller name is similar but formatted differently so it appears to the algorithms that parse such listings as different sellers.

1. https://omegaforums.net/threads/pre-...-01-001.61845/

2. http://forums.watchnet.com/index.php...o=856405&rid=0

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by ras47

Here's an example of the same watch being listed twice. Notice that the seller name is similar but formatted differently so it appears to the algorithms that parse such listings as different sellers.

1. https://omegaforums.net/threads/pre-...-01-001.61845/

2. http://forums.watchnet.com/index.php...o=856405&rid=0

What's you're issue here? Nothing stopping people from listing on multiple forums. Govberg is one of the largest ADs in the United States.

[lawrenceb]

Originally Posted by GB-man

What's you're issue here? Nothing stopping people from listing on multiple forums. Govberg is one of the largest ADs in the United States.

I dont get it either.. same ad, same price... Great Dealer too..

[ras47]

Originally Posted by GB-man

What's you're issue here? Nothing stopping people from listing on multiple forums. Govberg is one of the largest ADs in the United States.

That's a bogus example I cited. Different forums, but they get aggregated by WatchRecon.

[haven_seeker]

Too bad this thread was moved. It got a lot more presence.

[RoyalOac]

Originally Posted by haven_seeker

Too bad this thread was moved. It got a lot more presence.

I concur. It is definite in need of wider exposure and debate

[mailman]

Originally Posted by ras47

That's a bogus example I cited. Different forums, but they get aggregated by WatchRecon.

Different platforms for the same item. That's how people do business. The more exposure an item has, the better chance it sells. Do you think people only advertise on TRF? If I sold on multiple platforms I'd list a watch today here, tomorrow elsewhere. This way I'd have a chance to bump it everyday and bring it to the top on both websites and Watchtrecon daily.

[socalwatchcollector]

Originally Posted by jeffgo888

My 2 cents only:
I have bought from trusted sellers here, and yes, you ALWAYS have to do due diligence
and so does the seller. It's 2 way street. I do not think any trusted seller aims to mislead on purpose, at any time. Mistakes happen, we are human. So if errors, then to me, it's how the process is resolved. I have bought from David, Takuya Thanh, Sohails, all have been quite super experiences so far, but there was plenty of communications going back and forth before the deal is finalized.

Well stated..

[ras47]

I've seen the same ad on the same forum, posted twice. One was recently put up and taken down quickly. My example was an unfortunate mistake by me.

[m j b]

If I may...

I am an occasional seller (and buyer) on this forum. I'm not a full-time dealer by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just an enthusiast who keeps a watch for typically two years and then flips it for something else. As a buyer, I want to know everything I can about the watch before I buy it. I assume that all buyers are like that. As a seller, I want my buyers to be happy and satisfied with the purchase. So I take the best pictures that I possibly can, sweating the lighting and focus so that there are no issues, questions or doubts about any damage or lack of damage. And then I carefully list all of the defects that I am aware of. That's a lot of work, and I probably lose a lot of potential buyers with my obsession to disclose everything. But that's me. I just received an email from the guy who bought my latest, and he said: " I am very happy, condition was better than described!" That makes me very happy. Sure, I may have missed out on a couple of hundred bucks, but that's nothing compared to how I'd feel if he'd written and expressed disappointment with my honesty. Without my integrity, I have nothing.

I've seen ads and pictures from high volume sellers here, and I'm sure that they are stand-up guys, but I concur that some of these leave a lot to be desired. And I think that DavidSW is a great guy; I've dealt with him on numerous occasions; he takes great pictures and describes the item accurately. But I also know that he has many of his used watches polished before he sells them. And you may complain that he doesn't disclose this, but he never claims that they are not polished. You need to infer that, I guess.

So yes, it's buyer beware. And it's challenging when really all you've got to go on is pictures. My rule is simple, if you have any doubt, any question at all, then just pass on it and wait for another watch.

[Londonboy]

This thread got moved so that it did indeed get less exposure, even though there's threads that get left on the Rolex discussion part of the forum that don't really belong there. Bottom line is this - if you're buying a used, non mint, watch then check the pics, ask your questions etc. The TS (or any seller) are only giving the information in the sales thread that they want to provide - some give all the info they can (Patrick/Thanh etc), some others prefer/choose not to.