Need help with authenticating...Stella Dial?

[77T]

With the relatively few years that the original Stella’s were produced, and the hand finishing involved, it is possible many may look different but in a subtle way. For example, some observers have noted the colors varied slightly due to hand mixing of the enamel colors.

Also, these dials were not produced in-house so even the silk screen pads had differences that are undocumented.

Almost any 1803 with a Stella in it would need triple checking - ideally proof of single ownership, original warranty paperwork, and some matching RSC service docs. That should be a gold standard for authenticity.


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[seattleal]

I'm posting this for what it might contribute to this discussion, and because I find stella dials fascinating - although I've never seen one in hand.

Richard - as always I really appreciate your posts and all I learn from them.

Here is a post on an Omega forum by Steve P, who used to post regularly on VRF, and perhaps here, but no longer does. He is (was?) a serious collector of 18xx Day-Dates. This is some of his collection, including many, if not most, stella colors. If you are a D-D fan scroll all the way thru his post, but be prepared to contain your envy.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/here...t-on-dds.1056/

[roh123]

Originally Posted by seattleal

I'm posting this for what it might contribute to this discussion, and because I find stella dials fascinating - although I've never seen one in hand.

Richard - as always I really appreciate your posts and all I learn from them.

Here is a post on an Omega forum by Steve P, who used to post regularly on VRF, and perhaps here, but no longer does. He is (was?) a serious collector of 18xx Day-Dates. This is some of his collection, including many, if not most, stella colors. If you are a D-D fan scroll all the way thru his post, but be prepared to contain your envy.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/here...t-on-dds.1056/

Steve indeed had/have a wonderful collection of stellas. I don’t know him but I suspect he was the one selling a ton through Phillips in 2015/16. But who knows...

They were hot back then. Still is but check the volume during these years:

https://www.phillips.com/Search?Sear...x+stella&sbmt=

[roh123]

Double

[77T]

Originally Posted by seattleal

I'm posting this for what it might contribute to this discussion, and because I find stella dials fascinating - although I've never seen one in hand.



Richard - as always I really appreciate your posts and all I learn from them.



Here is a post on an Omega forum by Steve P, who used to post regularly on VRF, and perhaps here, but no longer does. He is (was?) a serious collector of 18xx Day-Dates. This is some of his collection, including many, if not most, stella colors. If you are a D-D fan scroll all the way thru his post, but be prepared to contain your envy.



https://omegaforums.net/threads/here...t-on-dds.1056/

Al
That was a great share. Indeed, that fellow was “hell bent on Stella”.


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[Richard Carver]

I really don't know your level of comfort with vintage Rolex but you handle enough of them you become familiar with the characteristics evident in a 6694, a 1675 or an 1802 Day Date or any of them, they are the same. The quality of construction, the materials, the methods, the fonts on the dial the type of marker, a dozen different things. Fakers get most of their information from the forums so I won't get anymore specific than that.

You come to know Rolex and that will get you a long way but for the 5th time you simply don't buy expensive vintage Rolex dials without validation. Do you really think the experts you mentioned in an earlier post haven't made a phone call on occasion? Everyone want's those fresh eyes.

I don't know why you think people with years of experience suddenly can't tell Rolex work from Quan's in Ho Chi Min City regardless of the part but maybe more experience will resolve that for you.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

I really don't know your level of comfort with vintage Rolex but you handle enough of them you become familiar with the characteristics evident in a 6694, a 1675 or an 1802 Day Date or any of them, they are the same. The quality of construction, the materials, the methods, the fonts on the dial the type of marker, a dozen different things. Fakers get most of their information from the forums so I won't get anymore specific than that.

You come to know Rolex and that will get you a long way but for the 5th time you simply don't buy expensive vintage Rolex dials without validation. Do you really think the experts you mentioned in an earlier post haven't made a phone call on occasion? Everyone want's those fresh eyes.

I don't know why you think people with years of experience suddenly can't tell Rolex work from Quan's in Ho Chi Min City regardless of the part but maybe more experience will resolve that for you.

I hear you and I agree with most of what you say. Handle enough watches and you get a long way. I still say that stellas are tough as these lacquered dials have been made forever as redials as well as from Rolex. Not by fakers but by highly skilled watchmakers. Redials were very common back in the day and some work were truly spectacular. I am sure you know that as well.

If you know your stuff that is great. I still find it difficult and I am not the only collector in the community that think so. If you read my initial post the dealers/auction houses I mentioned was for their reputation. A watch that passed through there will not have the same doubts as one bought through ebay or a random small time dealer/collector.

Just trying to add to the discussion. Stellas are one of the most faked/redone dial types around. For the most part just as ”fun” dials with lots of color. It’s just in recent years these have become very valuable and therefore I just highlight the dangers. I have zero doubt regarding your oxblood dial if that is what you think.

Have a nice night and enjoy your passion for these beautiful and rare dials.

[Richard Carver]

Do you have any actual proof of that? I doubt you do I've studied Stella for many years and have have not found them to be 'the most faked, redone dials around', I think the hugely popular sub types hold that dubious honor. :) The fakes are usually the quality of your link above, they look like they were painted with a candy bar. :)

The 'better' fakes are still not Rolex quality. Stella are a small niche and fakers simply haven't spent the time and effort required to get the same results they get with the much higher volume red 4 digits, that's where the money is. :)

You say you know nothing about Stella but are quick to repeat erroneous disinformation about them.

[roh123]

I have no interest in argueing.. I posted the stella catalogue name pic to help if anyone was interested and I just highlighted that there are no good reference material when it comes to these.

This aint leading anywhere so if you say it’s easy I will leave it at that.

[Richard Carver]

Neither do I. We each shared our experience. :)

[miamiclay]

The issue obviously is that the scholarship for the professional models is both extensive and extensively archived online, while the knowledge base about Stellas is largely in the hands and minds of a very few professionals.

To me, this cuts both ways — Online resources can allow people to recognize many fakes at home, but they can also lead to unwarranted confidence in one’s ability to discern fakery, and they doubtless can help fakers improve their nefarious wares.

As to helping the fakers, this is an information-distribution problem of how to share with trusted recipients only. It seems there should be a solution, but none comes to mind ... Mr. Carver, if you know of a solution, or of any tells which would not serve to improve fakery, any information would be very much appreciated by us regular Stella fans.

No one doubts that Stellas can be tricky, I don’t think. I had one (not the green above) which two different known, full-time vintage dealers got to examine under a loupe. Though neither claimed deep Stella expertise, one said he was quite confident it was legit, and the other believed it was not.

Originally Posted by roh123

They were hot back then. Still are, but check the volume during these years:

https://www.phillips.com/Search?Sear...x+stella&sbmt=

Though the two listed were with diamonds, at least I’m glad to see that WG/Kelly green examples were uncommon and did well ...

[Richard Carver]

Originally Posted by miamiclay

The issue obviously is that the scholarship for the professional models is both extensive and extensively archived online, while the knowledge base about Stellas is largely in the hands and minds of a very few professionals.

To me, this cuts both ways — Online resources can allow people to recognize many fakes at home, but they can also lead to unwarranted confidence in one’s ability to discern fakery, and they doubtless can help fakers improve their nefarious wares.

As to helping the fakers, this is an information-distribution problem of how to share with trusted recipients only. It seems there should be a solution, but none comes to mind ... Mr. Carver, if you know of a solution, or of any tells which would not serve to improve fakery, any information would be very much appreciated by us regular Stella fans.

No one doubts that Stellas can be tricky, I don’t think. I had one (not the green above) which two different known, full-time vintage dealers got to examine under a loupe. Though neither claimed deep Stella expertise, one said he was quite confident it was legit, and the other believed it was not.



Though the two listed were with diamonds, at least I’m glad to see that WG/Kelly green examples were uncommon and did well ...

Just because it's a Stella it doesn't become magically difficult to identify. As I mentioned earlier there is the 'Rolex way', you become familiar with the methods Rolex uses and this knowledge will allow you to spot as with any other Rolex dial anomalies.

Do the fonts look right? Is the spacing correct? Where are the hands in relation to the minute track. How is the quality of paint, application, thickness? All of these and many more are true to any Rolex. There are more that relate specifically to the Stella as there are to most any other Rolex dial.

Stellas are a tiny niche in the overall vintage firmament and let's not over complicate it. The real faker money is in subs, SDs, GMTs and Daytonas. The volume is higher, the demand is higher and the profit is higher.

If you can spot a fake DJ dial you can most likely spot a fake Stella. Even if you can, always get another opinion...always!!!

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Just because it's a Stella it doesn't become magically difficult to identify. As I mentioned earlier there is the 'Rolex way', you become familiar with the methods Rolex uses and this knowledge will allow you to spot as with any other Rolex dial anomalies.

Do the fonts look right? Is the spacing correct? Where are the hands in relation to the minute track. How is the quality of paint, application, thickness? All of these and many more are true to any Rolex. There are more that relate specifically to the Stella as there are to most any other Rolex dial.

Stellas are a tiny niche in the overall vintage firmament and let's not over complicate it. The real faker money is in subs, SDs, GMTs and Daytonas. The volume is higher, the demand is higher and the profit is higher.

If you can spot a fake DJ dial you can most likely spot a fake Stella. Even if you can, always get another opinion...always!!!

Interesting point. I recently returned an 1803 due to a very good fake dial. It took me a week of comparisons, but eventually a couple of anomalies in the fonts gave it away. My watchmaker then confirmed this.

[TurboWatch]

Originally Posted by Richard Carver

Just because it's a Stella it doesn't become magically difficult to identify. As I mentioned earlier there is the 'Rolex way', you become familiar with the methods Rolex uses and this knowledge will allow you to spot as with any other Rolex dial anomalies.

Do the fonts look right? Is the spacing correct? Where are the hands in relation to the minute track. How is the quality of paint, application, thickness? All of these and many more are true to any Rolex. There are more that relate specifically to the Stella as there are to most any other Rolex dial.

Stellas are a tiny niche in the overall vintage firmament and let's not over complicate it. The real faker money is in subs, SDs, GMTs and Daytonas. The volume is higher, the demand is higher and the profit is higher.

If you can spot a fake DJ dial you can most likely spot a fake Stella. Even if you can, always get another opinion...always!!!

They will make fakes if there's a market for it. With today's technology, it's easier for them to do so. I've seen fakes that look identical to the real thing..... That is until you open it up.

Now with these Stellas... Don't bother comparing the font, the finish etc..., all you have to do is to look at the dial plate ... something they will never be able to reproduce.

I agree with Richard about asking to get second opinion. Ask away if you're not sure of what you're buying. No one here claims to know everything about every "rare" model Rolex made, but the collective experiences of TRF/VRF members can help you navigate the Vintage Rolex world.