I'm definitely getting a 5522A, Wait a minute I'm not getting a 5522A?!?!?!?!

[Bryant Park]

Originally Posted by jaselle

As an avid Patek collector with a seven figure collection I have bought from many authorized dealers around the world.Govberg gets the bulk of my business because they buy,sell and trade watches at a better level than the others.Their customer service is second to none and they are as professional as they come.If you are a real,quality customer of theirs and understand the scale of their business,you know that.I don't see Govberg as a grey market dealer;I see them as an AD that aggressively buys or takes in trade high quality preowned watches and resells them at market value.Fortunately for collectors like myself and their many other satisfied customers they have done this successfully for 100 years.Most AD's do not deal in preowned or are woefully out of touch with their offers.Many of us are frustrated with the supply and demand issues especially with limited editions but we must realize that these pieces are special and truly meant for the top customers.We need to understand that although we have been a loyal customer and have purchased many watches there is usually someone above you that deserves it more.

Sounds like you have an amazing collection, congrats!! By any chance did you get a 5522 from them? If so were you asked to pay a jewelry premium?

Please share some photos they are the life blood of this forum.

[toucan]

I don't view Govberg as a grey dealer. Many of their watches come with papers. They are just a reseller as well as an AD.
I also think some of the harsh interrogation by members on this forum is not productive.
We have few facts and many answers to this questioning is pure speculation.
You all need to chill.
Someone was treated unfairly by an AD what else is new.
A large retailer might not be on the up and up. What else is new?
Unless new info comes to this forum I think we need to be careful with our questions , answers and decorum

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by jaselle

As an avid Patek collector with a seven figure collection I have bought from many authorized dealers around the world.Govberg gets the bulk of my business because they buy,sell and trade watches at a better level than the others.Their customer service is second to none and they are as professional as they come.If you are a real,quality customer of theirs and understand the scale of their business,you know that.I don't see Govberg as a grey market dealer;I see them as an AD that aggressively buys or takes in trade high quality preowned watches and resells them at market value.Fortunately for collectors like myself and their many other satisfied customers they have done this successfully for 100 years.Most AD's do not deal in preowned or are woefully out of touch with their offers.Many of us are frustrated with the supply and demand issues especially with limited editions but we must realize that these pieces are special and truly meant for the top customers.We need to understand that although we have been a loyal customer and have purchased many watches there is usually someone above you that deserves it more.

Not saying they don't treat you well, or perhaps better than any others would, but it isn't hard to get the best of service from a retailer when you are that big a buyer. I bet the local Ferrari dealer would treat me better if I had seven bays filled up with Ferraris I had bought from them.

In the same way that "you can tell a lot about a person by what he does when no one is looking," you can also probably tell a lot about an AD by how they treat customers who aren't the biggest fish. Especially if they promise them something.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by toucan

I don't view Govberg as a grey dealer. Many of their watches come with papers. They are just a reseller as well as an AD.

I guess it depends on the definition of a grey dealer. David SW is a grey dealer and that in and of itself is not a bad thing. His watches come with all appropriate paperwork but he is still in the grey market as he is not an AD. Govberg is also a grey dealer in the same way David SW is in that they "source" BNIB watches to be sold as used at market prices. They are also an AD and that raises questions.

To most a grey dealer is any dealer who is selling BNIB watches on the secondary market as used. Govberg meets that definition. Grey doesn't mean no paperwork.
A lot of AD's sell used watches/accept trades etc. Hardly any resell the amount of BNIB "used" watches as govberg.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Why was SoCal banned?

I don’t think we’ll ever know, and the mods have no obligation to tell us.

My take is that Socal was very passionate about the issue the OP had with Govberg and the subsequent accusations in this thread, but he took it too far. He started a thread (now deleted) asking people to discuss Govberg, and frankly there was no need. As Steve said, this is not a witch hunt.

IMHO enough people have read this thread to form their own opinions, we are very unlikely to get a statement from Govberg, Patek have been made aware of the issue by Bryant’s letter if nothing else, and let’s face it, we are not the “watch police”. I think Govberg needs Patek more than Patek needs Govberg, so if Patek believes Govberg to get their house in order, I’m sure they will take it up with Govberg.

I think it’s time to let it go and move on. If you want to continue to buy from Govberg - good luck, but don’t come crying here if you get burned. If you want to buy elsewhere - there’s plenty of options.

[Bryant Park]

Originally Posted by toucan

I don't view Govberg as a grey dealer. Many of their watches come with papers. They are just a reseller as well as an AD.
I also think some of the harsh interrogation by members on this forum is not productive.
We have few facts and many answers to this questioning is pure speculation.
You all need to chill.
Someone was treated unfairly by an AD what else is new.
A large retailer might not be on the up and up. What else is new?
Unless new info comes to this forum I think we need to be careful with our questions , answers and decorum

So are you suggesting asking questions to satisfy concerns is a break from decorum? Not sure I saw that in the rules. I am not casting aspersions but trying to get facts. If the pursuit of honest answers to 18 pages of unsubstantiated claims is out of bounds I need an explanation otherwise I will keep asking.

Thank you and apologies if that wasn't addressed at least in part to me.

[Chiboy]

When a thread gets "closed," does it disappear? Or is it just that no one can post new comments? If it's the former, I think we should all drop this so that in the future TRFers (and the others who lurk here) can search for and find this thread and form their own opinion. If it gets deleted, then many people who might get some color from this thread will be denied the opportunity to do so.

Just my $0.02.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

When a thread gets "closed," does it disappear? Or is it just that no one can post new comments? If it's the former, I think we should all drop this so that in the future TRFers (and the others who lurk here) can search for and find this thread and form their own opinion. If it gets deleted, then many people who might get some color from this thread will be denied the opportunity to do so.

Just my $0.02.

it depends

way above my pay grade

I don't think anything new is coming out at this point so I'm all for not letting this digress any further into a back and forth as there are valid concerns here that will be jeopardized by this.

[Bryant Park]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

When a thread gets "closed," does it disappear? Or is it just that no one can post new comments? If it's the former, I think we should all drop this so that in the future TRFers (and the others who lurk here) can search for and find this thread and form their own opinion. If it gets deleted, then many people who might get some color from this thread will be denied the opportunity to do so.

Just my $0.02.

Agreed and I won't take the bait. My last participation in this thread but still anxiously awaiting any declarative statement on behalf of the AD so we can all understand their business practice. So far we have largely only heard one side of the discussion which has been fairly damning, but anxiously await a response to legitimate questions.

Have a great night

[lapince]

Originally Posted by lapince

We can argue about wether AD’s asking first time clients, to buy something extra for a hard to find model is moral or not, immoral IMO, especially jewelry, but doing this to a 10 year client who bought many pieces from them and brought them other clients is despicable for me. And he is clearly not the only one here who had bad experiences with them... And their BNIB hard to get pieces all with the large shipping box from PP, wether they come from them or not is not very moral at all as well, not to mention the fact that they didn’t answer themselves, which makes it clear they are afraid to do it...
Like we say there ain’t smoke without fire, and there is a lot of smoke here, not from only one person here...

Since it is too late to edit I am editing at the request of Mike, I got a little carried away, it happens sometimes. So the OP bought a few pieces from them, not "many pieces", but the rest is factual...

[toucan]

Originally Posted by Bryant Park

So are you suggesting asking questions to satisfy concerns is a break from decorum? Not sure I saw that in the rules. I am not casting aspersions but trying to get facts. If the pursuit of honest answers to 18 pages of unsubstantiated claims is out of bounds I need an explanation otherwise I will keep asking.

Thank you and apologies if that wasn't addressed at least in part to me.

A healthy discussion is consctrucitve. Demanding answers that don't satisfy you with very little actual information is not constructive.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Bryant Park

Agreed and I won't take the bait. My last participation in this thread but still anxiously awaiting any declarative statement on behalf of the AD so we can all understand their business practice. So far we have largely only heard one side of the discussion which has been fairly damning, but anxiously await a response to legitimate questions.

Have a great night

this thread is especially confusing to those casually reading as there are competing topics and questions. I am firmly in the Bryant camp as far as the business practice question. The division of the AD side of the business vs the grey side as far as being somewhat transparent.

Others have other questions which are also valid but its confusing as there is a lot going on.

[martinr]

Originally Posted by jnelson3097

I am very friendly with them, despite not being as fortunate as you to be taken away on free factory trips with them, and Govberg has told me they don’t want to disclose too much information about authorized dealers in the network and individuals like yourself who interact on watches at a discount. Didn’t you try to consign a watch described by you as LNIB through them at no cost to you? Ironic how you tried to use the very same channel you’re now criticizing. That new Basel release could have easily been misinterpreted as a brand new watch, but rather it was one you purchased from another retailer and given to them by you.

That was quite some time ago, before this little episode. And for your information they didn't sell the watch and returned it to me. Nothing ironic about it. Also, taken on one trip, not trips. No way that watch could have been misinterpreted as a brand new watch and the reason I sold it, the lug at 5:00 was thinner than the other three, obviously a screw up by the Patek polishing department. Opinions change for lots of reasons and obviously I'm not the only one on this forum that was Govberg customer and now isn't.

[toucan]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

I guess it depends on the definition of a grey dealer. David SW is a grey dealer and that in and of itself is not a bad thing. His watches come with all appropriate paperwork but he is still in the grey market as he is not an AD. Govberg is also a grey dealer in the same way David SW is in that they "source" BNIB watches to be sold as used at market prices. They are also an AD and that raises questions.

To most a grey dealer is any dealer who is selling BNIB watches on the secondary market as used. Govberg meets that definition. Grey doesn't
A lot of AD's sell used watches/accept trades etc. Hardly any resell the amount of BNIB "used" watches as govberg.

I guess I'm not really sure what defines a Grey then. I think of them as a reseller as most of their watches are used and not BNIB. But some are new.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by toucan

I guess I'm not really sure what defines a Grey then. I think of them as a reseller as most of their watches are used and not BNIB. But some are new.

right. Thats part of the issue here. They have mostly used watches, nothing to see there. Then they have the BNIB "used" stuff that are hard to get and selling over list price because they are used. Used watches don't have the same constraints as new watches with a set retail price. Used watches trade at market prices.

What i said before is if the Rolex AD in your city was selling Daytona C's in the window at double retail prices and still stickered and called them "used" what would you think? Im not talking about a reseller, I'm talking about an officially recognized Rolex AD. Would you wonder where these watches came from since they also get regular shipments of these same watches from Rolex directly? It is an odd situation and pretty unique on this scale for an AD to also be selling this many grey watches too.

The optics are bad at a minimum

[RussW]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

right. Thats part of the issue here. They have mostly used watches, nothing to see there. Then they have the BNIB "used" stuff that are hard to get and selling over list price.

What i said before is if the Rolex AD in your city was selling Daytona C's in the window at double retail prices and still stickered what would you think? Im not talking about a reseller, I'm talking about an officially recognized Rolex AD. Would you wonder where these watches came from since they also get regular shipments of these same watches from Rolex directly? It is an odd situation and pretty unique on this scale for an AD to also be selling this many grey watches too.

The optics are bad at a minimum

What I would do is visit to different AD.

What I wouldn’t do is demand answers on an internet forum.

Do people still care about this? If Govberg made a statement on here that made perfect sense would people switch ADs and start buying from Govberg? If Govberg make no statement and lose customers as a result, does anyone care?

[codecow]

At this point I'm just hoping SoCal gets unbanned and Mike is happy ��

[AK797]

When markets are normal and used pieces sell for less than retail then there is no harm in an AD selling used pieces, but the situation now on an increasing number of models across many brands is that used pieces sell for far higher than retail and that is where an AD lies in a conflict of interest. And the only thing to stop him from repackaging pieces sold to him by Patek directly at cost, as used pieces to take advantage of the higher prices, is integrity and honesty. This is asking too much now and so walls need to be built in, self-regulation didn't work for the banks and it won't work here. Patek need to take action and make some categorical rules on separation otherwise incidents like the OP's will just become the norm.

Close on 24,000 views says this is an issue that people feel strongly about, and shouldn't just be brushed under the carpet.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by RussW

What I would do is visit to different AD.

What I wouldn’t do is demand answers on an internet forum.

Do people still care about this? If Govberg made a statement on here that made perfect sense would people switch ADs and start buying from Govberg? If Govberg make no statement and lose customers as a result, does anyone care?

If every Rolex and Patek AD was allowed to do this, no D500 or 5711 would ever be sold to a normal member of the public at retail again no matter how long they wait, so yes this matters and all people should care.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by AK797

If every Rolex and Patek AD was allowed to do this, no D500 or 5711 would ever be sold to a normal member of the public at retail again no matter how long they wait, so yes this matters and all people should care.

You don’t think the point has been sufficiently made after 19 pages? Nothing new is being added here.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by RussW

You don’t think the point has been sufficiently made after 19 pages? Nothing new is being added here.

It was being made until you tried to undermine it for some bizarre reason. But anyway enough is enough now.

The thread can be locked for everyone to see it on an internet search. It's been a healthy discussion as Steve said, so doesn't have to be deleted.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by AK797

It was being made until you tried to undermine it for some bizarre reason. But anyway enough is enough.

The thread can be locked for everyone to see it on an internet search. It's been a healthy discussion as Steve said, so doesn't have to be deleted.

I’m not undermining anything.

[Bryant Park]

Originally Posted by jaselle

As an avid Patek collector with a seven figure collection I have bought from many authorized dealers around the world.Govberg gets the bulk of my business because they buy,sell and trade watches at a better level than the others.Their customer service is second to none and they are as professional as they come.If you are a real,quality customer of theirs and understand the scale of their business,you know that.I don't see Govberg as a grey market dealer;I see them as an AD that aggressively buys or takes in trade high quality preowned watches and resells them at market value.Fortunately for collectors like myself and their many other satisfied customers they have done this successfully for 100 years.Most AD's do not deal in preowned or are woefully out of touch with their offers.Many of us are frustrated with the supply and demand issues especially with limited editions but we must realize that these pieces are special and truly meant for the top customers.We need to understand that although we have been a loyal customer and have purchased many watches there is usually someone above you that deserves it more.

So on a more constructive note, not everyday someone throws out there the monetary value of there collection, much less places it at over $1,000,000. Sounds amazing please share some photos and share your collection with this community of people who will enjoy it.

People on here frequently say it doesn't exist without photos. Of course your collection exists but really unfair not to share a collection of that magnitude. Apparently we have a shared love for the 5970p.

To sharing

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by vipereaper30

Please explain Govbergs "used" listings where a new watch still in the box is listed above retail? They will send me to Geneva with the extra $$$ they extract from the deal?

If the retail price of a Patek is say $50,000 but the after-market grey market price is $80,000, Govberg will sell the watch as an AD when it is new for $50,000.

However, if Govberg buy the second-hand Patek as a trade-in they will list it as used at the grey market price of $80,000 because they have had to pay grey or used market prices to purchase that piece and to sell it at retail is unrealistic and just not possible.

Originally Posted by dmash

Yeah....can somebody please clarify? Did he write something that has now been deleted and doesn't show up in his recent postings? The aforementioned postings don't seem to 'break any rules' and am confused as to why that would get him banned.....

If a member wages a campaign of disparagement, ridicule and defamatory material against another member or a business then action will be taken. In this case there was not only a number of posts to incite ridicule and disparagement but also a defamatory post (now removed) which when an infraction was issued So Cal responded in an unacceptable way with one word which clearly evinced an intention to be non-responsive to adhering to the forum rules of decorum. Accordingly there was no alternative but to ban that member.

Originally Posted by lapince

We can argue about wether AD’s asking first time clients, to buy something extra for a hard to find model is moral or not, immoral IMO, especially jewelry, but doing this to a 10 year client who bought many pieces from them and brought them other clients is despicable for me. And he is clearly not the only one here who had bad experiences with them... And their BNIB hard to get pieces all with the large shipping box from PP, wether they come from them or not is not very moral at all as well, not to mention the fact that they didn’t answer themselves, which makes it clear they are afraid to do it...
Like we say there ain’t smoke without fire, and there is a lot of smoke here, not from only one person here...

You may wish to check your facts as my understanding the OP purchased 1 Patek from Govberg in the past 5 years whilst buying and selling Pateks from other sourcses over the same period. In any event to me, that is all irrelevant. Govberg acknowledges a mistake was made by their employee in this instance, no loss arises, no scam occurred and life goes on.

Originally Posted by NoVaSubowner

Ok. I stand corrected on that point. But,we all knew who he was talking about through deduction.

I think it became very clear to whom the reference was being made, whether that was the fault of the OP or not is irrelevant, it happened.

[remz07twos]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

If the retail price of a Patek is say $50,000 but the after-market grey market price is $80,000, Govberg will sell the watch as an AD when it is new for $50,000.

However, if Govberg buy the second-hand Patek as a trade-in they will list it as used at the grey market price of $80,000 because they have had to pay grey or used market prices to purchase that piece and to sell it at retail is unrealistic and just not possible.

hmm I wonder how much they have tied up in that 5131.

[Alford78]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

ok, but the source still appears it could the same. So what about a swap with another AD that way neither are selling their own watches? Or more simply, buying them directly from another AD and flipping them.

If 5 random people sell their watches to this AD and the AD then resells them for over retail what are the odds that all 5 random people have all the same accessories like shipping boxes if they were sourced from 5 different places? Most AD's don't give you that stuff when taking delivery. It looks like an organized supply chain and used watches should not appear that way, they should have an element of randomness to reflect the different situations under which they were aquired.

Thats why we are asking

There are lots of explanations but none of them satisfy the basic conflict that arises when you sell grey market watches and act as an AD simultaneously.

If they have employees who work for them and by default are representatives of a PP AD and who are sourcing watches from other AD's to sell above retail and flip do you think that is ok? Should AD's have a higher expectation of behavior than a regular grey dealer who isn't also an AD?

This post hits the nail on the head!

One way or another the Grey Department is getting pieces that are new from other ADs, individuals in a network within their AD, sales accosiates with other AD contacts, etc.. just like any other Grey Dealer and the pieces can be sorted however they wish to make the serial numbers jive. It's only an issue because they are an AD themselves (and a huge one to boot) which makes the rare BNIB/Pre-Owned pieces very skeptical.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

[Alford78]

And to the defenders saying they offer great trade in values, I'm surprised at that compared to the members here offers. Just seems like they should be able to offer top dollar since they are truly the largest dealer in the US but from what I've heard/read that is far from the case.

That makes me wonder even more about the rare BNIB pieces that could very well be legit purchases by them.

[DR.Golf]

Originally Posted by Alford78

This post hits the nail on the head!

One way or another the Grey Department is getting pieces that are new from other ADs, individuals in a network within their AD, sales accosiates with other AD contacts, etc.. just like any other Grey Dealer and the pieces can be sorted however they wish to make the serial numbers jive. It's only an issue because they are an AD themselves (and a huge one to boot) which makes the rare BNIB/Pre-Owned pieces very skeptical.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Are you guys for real? Competing AD's, really! AD's who don't get enough watches to keep their best clients happy. Some of these clients will buy any Patek, good or bad and in some cases these people spend boat loads of cash on other products. Yet you suggest they are going to call up a competitor and play games with Patek serial numbers and swap out watches. Try calling up Patek and becoming an AD, good luck with that, these dealerships are worth millions. Any AD conducting themselves this way would be out but your suggestion any of them would do this is nuts. Where do you guys find the drugs you have been taking, WOW!

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by DR.Golf

Where do you guys find the drugs you have been taking, WOW!

Feel free to act like an adult.

[Alford78]

Originally Posted by DR.Golf

Are you guys for real? Competing AD's, really! AD's who don't get enough watches to keep their best clients happy. Some of these clients will buy any Patek, good or bad and in some cases these people spend boat loads of cash on other products. Yet you suggest they are going to call up a competitor and play games with Patek serial numbers and swap out watches. Try calling up Patek and becoming an AD, good luck with that, these dealerships are worth millions. Any AD conducting themselves this way would be out but your suggestion any of them would do this is nuts. Where do you guys find the drugs you have been taking, WOW!

Wow. Took that way out of context. I said they could acquire their BNIB pieces in many different ways, they can make sure none of the serial numbers are of watches that basically came in their front door and were sold to somebody directly linked to their store so everything jives. But how the watches get moved around and end up in the Grey Dpt BNIB could be done in a manner that seems a lot more legit than it truly is. Many ways of doing it. Just like many of us get BNIB watches all the time from other avenues.