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Old 3 November 2018, 04:00 PM   #1
116710er
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Freshly Serviced 14060...low amplitude?

So I just had RSC service my 14060 and I wound it up and put it on the timegrapher, here's what I'm getting:

Dial Up : +6 / 236 / 0.3ms
Dial Down : +1 / 238 / 0.1ms
Crown Up : +4 / 203 / 0.4ms
Crown Down : +6 / 199 / 0.0ms
Crown Right : +1 / 201 / 0.3ms
Crown Left : +8 / 194 / 0.1ms

Does this seem acceptable to you? Amplitude looks really low and doesn't seem like it's regulated that well. Maybe I'm just too used to 6-digits doing -2/+2.
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Old 3 November 2018, 04:17 PM   #2
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Are you sure it is fully wound?

If it is fully wound then this is not acceptable of course.
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Old 3 November 2018, 04:26 PM   #3
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Hey Bas, yeah I wore it all day and wound it at least 40 turns before I put it on the timegrapher.

EDIT: I just wound it even more (60 additional turns) and it's timing about the same. Some positions had slightly lower amplitude.

Very disappointing...
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Old 3 November 2018, 04:42 PM   #4
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Did you put your lift angle at 52?
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Rolex uses rare elves to polish the platinum. They have a union deal and make like $90 per hour and get time and half on weekends.
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Old 3 November 2018, 04:46 PM   #5
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Did you put your lift angle at 52?
Yes sir, I'm looking at it right now....some of the positions are posting even lower amplitude numbers (~10 degrees less) now...lol
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Old 3 November 2018, 05:01 PM   #6
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Yes sir, I'm looking at it right now....some of the positions are posting even lower amplitude numbers (~10 degrees less) now...lol
Damn, very sorry to hear.
I'd wear it for a week or two and see how it performs on the wrist, then check the amplitude again and if it isn't in an acceptable range then I'd contact RSC.
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Rolex uses rare elves to polish the platinum. They have a union deal and make like $90 per hour and get time and half on weekends.
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Old 3 November 2018, 05:26 PM   #7
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Ok sounds good, I'll try that out. Thanks for the help Bas!
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Old 3 November 2018, 06:21 PM   #8
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Curious to see what it would read on a Witschi. The china made timegraphers are a great hobby device but not a precision tool.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
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Old 3 November 2018, 06:28 PM   #9
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Curious to see what it would read on a Witschi. The china made timegraphers are a great hobby device but not a precision tool.
Agreed but I doubt it would be that far off. Few points here and there but we're talking about being ~30% off. I've timed new Rolex watches that are in the -2/+2 guarantee and they timed exactly as expected. Very little variance in the beat error (0.0 to 0.1), high amplitude (high 200's to low 300's) and within in the -2/+2 for accuracy. I've also timed freshly serviced ETA and VJ movements and also saw results similar to the print outs I received. So based on those watches I've timed, I'm sure it's accurate within reason but no doubt it's not as accurate a high end timegrapher.
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Old 3 November 2018, 09:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Curious to see what it would read on a Witschi. The china made timegraphers are a great hobby device but not a precision tool.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.


Sure ,like Apple,Nike,etc.
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Old 3 November 2018, 11:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Curious to see what it would read on a Witschi. The china made timegraphers are a great hobby device but not a precision tool.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
I second this.

I find it quite concerning the number of these machines that appear to be popping up among collectors and on review channels. They are at best (as has been mentioned already) hobby devices. The operating tolerances of them are a not necessarily professional standard.

Conversely our witschi machines are routinely calibrated using a gps connect device and are the industry standard for a reason.
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Old 4 November 2018, 05:09 AM   #12
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Interesting. Do you have any side by side comparisons you can share? Cheers! -Norm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Curious to see what it would read on a Witschi. The china made timegraphers are a great hobby device but not a precision tool.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
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Old 5 November 2018, 05:58 AM   #13
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We would be willing do this if someone sent us one of these china units.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
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Old 5 November 2018, 06:19 AM   #14
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Freshly Serviced 14060...low amplitude?

Its also about constancy of product as well. How are these knock off units calibrated and do they all read the same? Witschi is a trusted proven brand used by all luxury brands. Rolex, AP, Patel etc. We use them because our customers deserve it and expect a high quality of work. These devices gives us a reliable metrics that help us to achieve the results. You cant manage what you cant measure and precision measuring tools are required.

Would anyone leave their Porsche, Ferrari, even an Audi with a mechanic working with budget tools from Harbor Freight? Thats why you wont find a timegrapher in any real watch shop. Seriously 0.00%. Its not because we’re idiots opting to spend $3k ($7k for micromat) vs $300. Its because we pay for constancy Witschi has engineered through the years.

Timegraphers are great. Carefully when using a non professional grade devices to measure the quality of work of proven shops especially in the context of this tread. RSC

We’re merely suggesting getting it tested with a Swiss device.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
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Old 5 November 2018, 04:38 PM   #15
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I re-timed it tonight, here's the averages from 6-positions:

Friday: +4.17 / 219 / 0.2

Sunday: +4.33 / 212 /0.2

Seems to be holding about the same after time on the winder. I'm going to wear it for a week as per Bas's suggestion to see if it improves and then re-time it at the end of this week. I have no illusions that this timegrapher is anywhere near as accurate as professional grade machine but I also think it's accurate enough for my basic needs. I'm hoping I can get a read off a professional grade machine so that I can compare it to my timegrapher results (see how calibrated it is...or not) and to keep RSC honest.
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Old 5 November 2018, 05:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Its also about constancy of product as well. How are these knock off units calibrated and do they all read the same? Witschi is a trusted proven brand used by all luxury brands. Rolex, AP, Patel etc. We use them because our customers deserve it and expect a high quality of work. These devices gives us a reliable metrics that help us to achieve the results. You cant manage what you cant measure and precision measuring tools are required.

Would anyone leave their Porsche, Ferrari, even an Audi with a mechanic working with budget tools from Harbor Freight? Thats why you wont find a timegrapher in any real watch shop. Seriously 0.00%. Its not because we’re idiots opting to spend $3k ($7k for micromat) vs $300. Its because we pay for constancy Witschi has engineered through the years.

Timegraphers are great. Carefully when using a non professional grade devices to measure the quality of work of proven shops especially in the context of this tread. RSC

We’re merely suggesting getting it tested with a Swiss device.


All work done in the good ol’ U.S. of A.
I have air velocity meters calibrated yearly to NATA and NIST.

I would be interested to see the calibration certificate for your Witschi.

The results on my Timegrapher have always reflected the actual results I see when the watch is worn.

If a watch is running fast on a weekly basis I find my Timegrapher shows this and also shows me the best position to reduce the error.
I have never had a watch that ran minus when worn and plus when on the Timegrapher when the positional results were averaged.
YYMV.
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Old 6 November 2018, 12:26 AM   #17
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I have air velocity meters calibrated yearly to NATA and NIST.

I would be interested to see the calibration certificate for your Witschi.

The results on my Timegrapher have always reflected the actual results I see when the watch is worn.

If a watch is running fast on a weekly basis I find my Timegrapher shows this and also shows me the best position to reduce the error.
I have never had a watch that ran minus when worn and plus when on the Timegrapher when the positional results were averaged.
YYMV.
Google 'witschi calibration certificate' the first image is an example (I can't seem to get it to upload here for some reason).

In addition to the unknown calibration status of the weishi machines the reason I am concerned about seeing so many of them being used by reviewers is that I have not seen them used correctly (I'm not suggesting that you personally are not using it correctly).

Yes it is easy to put your watch on and see the numbers flash on the screen but believe me, timing a watch is more than just turning a screw/microstellar/lever.

You have hairspring flatness and centring to think of. State of wind of the watch. Timed in the correct number of positions for the correct time period and averaged. There are deltas to consider. Amplitude considerations (for example positional error reverses from + to - at around 180-190 degrees and completely disappears at 220 degrees amplitude). But all the machine shows you are cold hard numbers than are easy to misinterpret.

Watchmaking isn't an unattainable gift from the gods but it is a science and a profession that requires a deep understanding that goes further than what these machines tell you.
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Old 6 November 2018, 04:54 AM   #18
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Did you walk in and pick up your watch or was it mailed to you??
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Old 6 November 2018, 08:15 AM   #19
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Did you walk in and pick up your watch or was it mailed to you??
Walked in.
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Old 6 November 2018, 08:55 AM   #20
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Walked in.
I was going to ask about magnetism. I see it a lot with sending watches through the mail. Do you have a way to check for it? It's also possible some oil is on the hairspring. Definitely not running correctly.
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Old 6 November 2018, 09:32 AM   #21
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Walked in.
Did they not give you their own timing results ?

I'm suspicious of repairers who won't and either think that their customers can't possibly understand them, or don't want to have to explain them in case they may not have delivered what the manufacturer sets as the standard.

A good honest repairer will stand behind the work, warrant it, give you their timing results, explain what the results mean if asked, and how they match up to the standards set by the manufacturer.

Those are the organisations I'll spend my money with. There are some that I surely won't.
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Old 6 November 2018, 10:19 AM   #22
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Did they not give you their own timing results ?

I'm suspicious of repairers who won't and either think that their customers can't possibly understand them, or don't want to have to explain them in case they may not have delivered what the manufacturer sets as the standard.

A good honest repairer will stand behind the work, warrant it, give you their timing results, explain what the results mean if asked, and how they match up to the standards set by the manufacturer.

Those are the organisations I'll spend my money with. There are some that I surely won't.
Exactly. I try to educate a customer as much as I can. Mention any issues the watch may have and explain them in a way they can understand. Not sure why so few in this business don't do that. I see it in the jewelry business too. I've had to teach several about "selling repairs." It's not simply take the item form the customer and hand it back to them. There's so much more involved that no one ever thinks about. This is why I tell people that, just because you can repair watches or repair jewelry doesn't mean you can run a business.
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Old 6 November 2018, 03:04 PM   #23
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Yeah I figure you were thinking about magnetism. I have no way of checking magnetism. I didn't receive a readout. Just my receipt and RSC warranty card.
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Old 6 November 2018, 05:00 PM   #24
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The result would be very different if it is magnetic.
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Old 8 November 2018, 04:44 PM   #25
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So I've been wearing the 14060 and here's tonight's readout:

DU - 5 / 250 / 0.2
DD - 2 / 255 / 0.1
CU - 5 / 211 / 0.4
CD - 4 / 211 / 0.0
CR - 3 / 214 / 0.3
CL - 5 / 216 / 0.1

Amplitude seems to have increased a little bit, beat error is about the same and accuracy seems to have leveled out and tightened up with a much smaller delta than before (+1 to +8 previously, now +2 to +5)

Keep wearing it or give RSC a call?
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Old 8 November 2018, 07:55 PM   #26
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So I've been wearing the 14060 and here's tonight's readout:

DU - 5 / 250 / 0.2
DD - 2 / 255 / 0.1
CU - 5 / 211 / 0.4
CD - 4 / 211 / 0.0
CR - 3 / 214 / 0.3
CL - 5 / 216 / 0.1

Amplitude seems to have increased a little bit, beat error is about the same and accuracy seems to have leveled out and tightened up with a much smaller delta than before (+1 to +8 previously, now +2 to +5)

Keep wearing it or give RSC a call?
If the timegrapher is giving you an accurate reading of your amplitude then it is too low and you will be lucky to get 3 years out of it before it needs another service.
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Old 9 November 2018, 09:13 AM   #27
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Can't help but ask if you don't mind sharing. What did the service bill come out to?

As an independent, we inspect parts more thoroughly and gauge how much life is left in them before considering replacement. There is definitely some push back at times when replacing parts are required on what is expected to be a routine service. So more labor hours invested to save the customer the expense of replacement.

For RSC is more procedural replacement. Good part or not, it will be replaced. Not as much push back from what I hear, despite parts are added to the service bill. But with this added expense, often 2x to 3x, it should be running much better than those readings. Truly hoping it's the measuring device not the work. I think a lot of us are awaiting the verdict.
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Old 9 November 2018, 09:49 AM   #28
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Can't help but ask if you don't mind sharing. What did the service bill come out to?

As an independent, we inspect parts more thoroughly and gauge how much life is left in them before considering replacement. There is definitely some push back at times when replacing parts are required on what is expected to be a routine service. So more labor hours invested to save the customer the expense of replacement.

For RSC is more procedural replacement. Good part or not, it will be replaced. Not as much push back from what I hear, despite parts are added to the service bill. But with this added expense, often 2x to 3x, it should be running much better than those readings. Truly hoping it's the measuring device not the work. I think a lot of us are awaiting the verdict.
It was $750 which is their base cost. They did not add any extra costs. They suggested a new insert which I declined because there's nothing wrong with the insert. I'm surprised they didn't recommend a new crystal as there is a very, very small chip (I can feel it with my fingernail) on the edge.
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Old 9 November 2018, 12:36 PM   #29
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I would take it to a Rolex dealer and ask them to measure on their Timegrapher. If the readings are consistent with yours, I’d most definitely send it back to RSC for re-service. Norm

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So I've been wearing the 14060 and here's tonight's readout:

DU - 5 / 250 / 0.2
DD - 2 / 255 / 0.1
CU - 5 / 211 / 0.4
CD - 4 / 211 / 0.0
CR - 3 / 214 / 0.3
CL - 5 / 216 / 0.1

Amplitude seems to have increased a little bit, beat error is about the same and accuracy seems to have leveled out and tightened up with a much smaller delta than before (+1 to +8 previously, now +2 to +5)

Keep wearing it or give RSC a call?
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Old 9 November 2018, 01:05 PM   #30
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Yeah, I'm going to try the AD timegrapher route. Just for fun, I put my 116710LN on the timer and here's what I got. This is an older one (green lume) with a random serial so no older than a 2012.

DU: +5 / 317 / 0.2
DD: +4 / 295 / 0.0
CU: +4 / 286 / 0.2
CD: -2 / 275 / 0.0
CR: 0 / 281 / 0.1
CL: +4 / 282 / 0.1

Dunno, you guy still think my timegrapher is really the concern? These readings seem like they're about right for this watch. I mean sure, it's not as accurate as a Witschi but do you think it's so far off that it would give those readings on the 14060 and these readings on the 116710LN? That would be a HUGE margin of error.
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