For 16610LV Kermit Experts

[Austin in Japan]

Does anybody know if a late D serial 16610LV could have come out of the factory with a Mark 2 dial? And would it have been possible for it to come in the earlier wooden box.

https://www.watchclub.com/curated-by...ry-sub-decoded

According to the above site, the Late D's didn't come with the "D2" dial, as they call it. I don't know how accurate the site is, or if they are missing overlaps and exceptions. Or if there are indeed exceptions.

Anyway, I'm asking because I'm looking at a late D serial, but it has the dial with the more condensed "Oyster Perpetual Date", as in the "D2" dial on the above site.

Hope someone can field this question, and thanks!

[mdx77]

What a great question. I know there were quite a few variants of the dial early on, I didn’t buy mine until 2008 M Serial. What I do know is the green wooden box was only available for the 2004 models and moved to the green wave box in 2005, just in time for the D serial. It was also the last year for the punched paper certificate, anchor, Rolex Submariner ‘cave diver’ booklet, ‘Your Rolex Oyster’ booklet, calendar card.......And finally, the thing that drove EVERYONE crazy for YEARS, the green holographic sticker on the case back.

[Austin in Japan]

Originally Posted by mdx77

What a great question. I know there were quite a few variants of the dial early on, I didn’t buy mine until 2008 M Serial. What I do know is the green wooden box was only available for the 2004 models and moved to the green wave box in 2005, just in time for the D serial. It was also the last year for the punched paper certificate, anchor, Rolex Submariner ‘cave diver’ booklet, ‘Your Rolex Oyster’ booklet, calendar card.......And finally, the thing that drove EVERYONE crazy for YEARS, the green holographic sticker on the case back.

Thank you - this one I'm looking at comes with the wooden box, which is really confusing.

[mdx77]

Originally Posted by Austin in Japan

Thank you - this one I'm looking at comes with the wooden box, which is really confusing.

Ok, $1,000,000 question. What is the warranty -> Punched Paper or Card? It’s very easy to buy an original Rolex Wooden Box online and pass it off as original (and should have a 640002 stamped on it, btw), but they never mixed the paper and cards...Paper = Wooden Box; Card = Green Wave. Unless, I’m completely off base and a Rolex AD had a one-off here and gave the customer the wrong box, which is very possible. But I’m very confident they didn’t mix these up from the factory.

[springer]

The watchclub website has some very good information there but the dial dating on some of the models is not 100% correct.

First off, the early bezel inserts with the "flat four" found on the Y and early F models are more commonly referred to as the"Flat 4" Anniversary Submariner. Why or where the naming of these models as the "fat 4" came from strange and is not the name used in the collecting world to identify these early anniversary Submariners. "Fat 4s" is a term used to identify some early Submariner inserts found on 1680/5513/5512 models as well as some GMT inserts circa 1970.

There seem to be some discrepancies in identifying what dial goes with each serial number range. In the past, I've noticed that when anyone tries to date a certain dial to a particular run of serial numbers, some collectors will interpret that to be an exact science which it is not. In the case of the anniversary Submariner dials, this is also true and at best, it should be considered a guide.

As an example, I have an NOS, fully stickered D9xxxxx which I purchased from a friend here in Dallas who purchased the watch new from a Rolex AD here in Dallas. The set comes with the later wave box and no anchor. It was originally purchased during May 2006.

According to the watch club website, this D9 serial number should have a D3 or D4 dial - which it does not. The watch has a D2 dial.

Here is link to a thread I put together on the early "flat 4" Submariner models which might help someone regarding a future purchase.

https://www.gmtforum.com/viewtopic.p...282&p=695#p695

[Austin in Japan]

Originally Posted by mdx77

Ok, $1,000,000 question. What is the warranty -> Punched Paper or Card? It’s very easy to buy an original Rolex Wooden Box online and pass it off as original (and should have a 640002 stamped on it, btw), but they never mixed the paper and cards...Paper = Wooden Box; Card = Green Wave. Unless, I’m completely off base and a Rolex AD had a one-off here and gave the customer the wrong box, which is very possible. But I’m very confident they didn’t mix these up from the factory.

It has the paper warranty. I'll see it in person in a few days, and will check out the code on the box. Thanks for that - very useful.

[Austin in Japan]

Originally Posted by springer

The watchclub website has some very good information there but the dial dating on some of the models is not 100% correct.

First off, the early bezel inserts with the "flat four" found on the Y and early F models are more commonly referred to as the"Flat 4" Anniversary Submariner. Why or where the naming of these models as the "fat 4" came from strange and is not the name used in the collecting world to identify these early anniversary Submariners. "Fat 4s" is a term used to identify some early Submariner inserts found on 1680/5513/5512 models as well as some GMT inserts circa 1970.

There seem to be some discrepancies in identifying what dial goes with each serial number range. In the past, I've noticed that when anyone tries to date a certain dial to a particular run of serial numbers, some collectors will interpret that to be an exact science which it is not. In the case of the anniversary Submariner dials, this is also true and at best, it should be considered a guide.

As an example, I have an NOS, fully stickered D9xxxxx which I purchased from a friend here in Dallas who purchased the watch new from a Rolex AD here in Dallas. The set comes with the later wave box and no anchor. It was originally purchased during May 2006.

According to the watch club website, this D9 serial number should have a D3 or D4 dial - which it does not. The watch has a D2 dial.

Here is link to a thread I put together on the early "flat 4" Submariner models which might help someone regarding a future purchase.

https://www.gmtforum.com/viewtopic.p...282&p=695#p695

Ah, that answers my question right there. This is a D8 serial, with the D2 dial like yours. OK, it's possible then. I had a feeling the site might have missed some exceptions. Thanks for letting me know!

In researching the Kermit, I found that very resource you linked to and read it earlier. Useful indeed!

Thanks again and take care!

[springer]

Originally Posted by Austin in Japan

Ah, that answers my question right there. This is a D8 serial, with the D2 dial like yours. OK, it's possible then. I had a feeling the site might have missed some exceptions. Thanks for letting me know!

In researching the Kermit, I found that very resource you linked to and read it earlier. Useful indeed!

Thanks again and take care!

I believe the watchclub website posted the 16610LV Anniversary article during the infancy of this watch. As the years progressed, other items of interest regarding these watches was observed - some of which appear to contradict or are different than what was originally believed to be correct. It would be nice to see this article on the anniversary 16610LVs corrected or updated.

Also, while the wave box is the most common box for the later D serial numbers, I wouldn't call the wooden box incorrect.

[springer]

Originally Posted by mdx77

What a great question. I know there were quite a few variants of the dial early on, I didn’t buy mine until 2008 M Serial. What I do know is the green wooden box was only available for the 2004 models and moved to the green wave box in 2005, just in time for the D serial. It was also the last year for the punched paper certificate, anchor, Rolex Submariner ‘cave diver’ booklet, ‘Your Rolex Oyster’ booklet, calendar card.......And finally, the thing that drove EVERYONE crazy for YEARS, the green holographic sticker on the case back.

How do you know the wooden box was only used for 2004 models?

[springer]

Originally Posted by mdx77

Ok, $1,000,000 question. What is the warranty -> Punched Paper or Card? It’s very easy to buy an original Rolex Wooden Box online and pass it off as original (and should have a 640002 stamped on it, btw), but they never mixed the paper and cards...Paper = Wooden Box; Card = Green Wave. Unless, I’m completely off base and a Rolex AD had a one-off here and gave the customer the wrong box, which is very possible. But I’m very confident they didn’t mix these up from the factory.

I have a different view on your theory regarding boxes and warranty documents.

My D9 serial number set is NOS - mentioned below in another post.

It has the wave box and the USA typed warranty paper - not the credit card version.

[mbc]

Originally Posted by springer

The watchclub website has some very good information there but the dial dating on some of the models is not 100% correct.

First off, the early bezel inserts with the "flat four" found on the Y and early F models are more commonly referred to as the"Flat 4" Anniversary Submariner. Why or where the naming of these models as the "fat 4" came from strange and is not the name used in the collecting world to identify these early anniversary Submariners. "Fat 4s" is a term used to identify some early Submariner inserts found on 1680/5513/5512 models as well as some GMT inserts circa 1970.

There seem to be some discrepancies in identifying what dial goes with each serial number range. In the past, I've noticed that when anyone tries to date a certain dial to a particular run of serial numbers, some collectors will interpret that to be an exact science which it is not. In the case of the anniversary Submariner dials, this is also true and at best, it should be considered a guide.

As an example, I have an NOS, fully stickered D9xxxxx which I purchased from a friend here in Dallas who purchased the watch new from a Rolex AD here in Dallas. The set comes with the later wave box and no anchor. It was originally purchased during May 2006.

According to the watch club website, this D9 serial number should have a D3 or D4 dial - which it does not. The watch has a D2 dial.

Here is link to a thread I put together on the early "flat 4" Submariner models which might help someone regarding a future purchase.

https://www.gmtforum.com/viewtopic.p...282&p=695#p695

I am in same boat as Springer -- i have a D89 serial bought directly from a collector friend of mine, came with wave box and no anchor. Also a D2 dial and USA typed papers...

[subluvr]

Ok this is an old thread but I have a simular question. I'm seeing a 16610LV full set (leatherbox) Flat 4 F serial (don't yet know if it is lower as F54, still waiting for info).

The bezel is B1 but the dial is D3 ?? They say it is very rare, and D3 was put on in combination with B1 in 2005. Is this correct? Can't find this info anywhere.

[Kingface66]

Should this maybe be in the general forum? Probably get more replies.

[robertengel]

Cool to see Austin here, I have watched a lot of your videos keep it up. Ultimately my opinion is that its a probability game as on chrono24 if memory serves right I have seen Cermaic GMTs with LN insert and the new type of warranty card as 2020 models. I personally have a 16610 LV and it came with a medium size wave box and punched papers dated 2005, and late F serial. Am i sure its all original set? No....but i bought it as such :D

[ILuvSubs]

Yes, I've enjoyed watching Austin's videos on YouTube too. Always interesting to see what the inventory at watch dealers are like and their asking prices in other jurisdictions. Good to see Austin on TRF.

Also, if the Kermit checks out OK, you should go for it! IMHO, it's the best modern Rolex reference - maxi dial, classic case size, SEL and that green bezel insert. The perfect recipe for a SS sports Rolex.

[Explorer2polar]

Hey Austin,

Good to hear your thinking of joining the 16610LV Club, great watch and enjoy wearing it. This is my own from 2006/7

Resize 2.jpg


Love wearing this super comfortable Sub, just about perfect in my eyes.

[Onequik135i]

One year old tread, Austin prob purchased this by now and maybe even flipped it too ha. I watch his videos also, good to see him as member on here.

[Explorer2polar]

Originally Posted by Onequik135i

One year old tread, Austin prob purchased this by now and maybe even flipped it too ha. I watch his videos also, good to see him as member on here.

Your probably correct !

PS I didn't notice the original date of the post ! Doh

[subluvr]

Originally Posted by subluvr

Ok this is an old thread but I have a simular question. I'm seeing a 16610LV full set (leatherbox) Flat 4 F serial (don't yet know if it is lower as F54, still waiting for info).

The bezel is B1 but the dial is D3 ?? They say it is very rare, and D3 was put on in combination with B1 in 2005. Is this correct? Can't find this info anywhere.

Nobody in here that can help me with the question above?
does this variation exist?

[GolfJunkie]

Originally Posted by mdx77

Ok, $1,000,000 question. What is the warranty -> Punched Paper or Card? It’s very easy to buy an original Rolex Wooden Box online and pass it off as original (and should have a 640002 stamped on it, btw), but they never mixed the paper and cards...Paper = Wooden Box; Card = Green Wave. Unless, I’m completely off base and a Rolex AD had a one-off here and gave the customer the wrong box, which is very possible. But I’m very confident they didn’t mix these up from the factory.

Is this accurate? I'm looking at a 2005 with papers and the green wave box. Would that be original or was this "complete set" pieced together?

[spikep]

Here’s what came with mine. It’s a F serial, one owner. I was fortunate to be offered it. It’s a stunner, I must admit I understand it’s a nice example and I’m not wearing it as much as I would normally given it’s condition

[subluvr]

Can a F78 have a B1 and D3 combo ?

[subluvr]

Originally Posted by subluvr

Can a F78 have a B1 and D3 combo ?

bump!