.:Don't hate the player, Hate the game:. - AD/GREY

[oldman2005]

Flippers in every market, you don't have to look far but into ourselves! We're part of the scheme/probem. Let's say you have the new SS BLRO at MSRP, would you sell it to me what you pay for it? Hell no, you would make sure you get the most out of that watch. Same here, I have a SS Daytona that I paid $7000 for it new, no way I will sell it to you at $7000.

Here it's all about material that symbols a wealth status, it's a greed game, not a love game. So just accept it and move on.

[Stevec14]

Originally Posted by superdog

I still love the grays.

I don’t care either way what they do.

I love my AD too.

I can typically get what I want from my AD, but I’ll pay over if I really want something.

Live and let live us my motto.

^this

[pandrew]

Originally Posted by ap1

Having had Pappys I can say for certain it is not 40x better than angels envy

I agree 100%

[ap1]

Originally Posted by pandrew

I agree 100%

🤙🏻 for the pics or didn’t happen crew. I have a very generous friend who basically saves it for my visits!




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[HogwldFLTR]

It's amusing to look back on this forum to when every discussion of a purchase of a new watch included the line, "don't go to a AD, buy like new from a TS." My how times have changed!!! Maybe the real answer is to not make such recommendations but to tell people to do what works for them best!!!

[Why1504]

All of this, ALL OF IT, is driven by one thing:

SUPPLY

Flippers wouldn’t be flipping if they didn’t have access to product that the rest of us don’t.

Grey Sellers wouldn’t be selling above MSRP if the supply at the AD was adequate.

I do think demand has increased, but I am also confident that SUPPLY is being restricted on certain models. I also believe these limits are tighter than they have been relative to total Rolex watch suppy in the past.

[Rode]

Sometimes I can only get what I want on the grey market while other times I have to visit the AD, for me the AD and grey market are just different sides of the same coin

[_speedmaster_]

This isn't rocket science. The onus is clearly on Rolex for this current state of affairs, causing a necessary symbiotic relationship between ADs and greys.

It's Rolex who impose strict sales quotas for ADs to match. It's Rolex who still make an abundance of undesirable watches (by Rolex standards) which sit in AD cases for months on end.

ADs turn to greys to meet these quotas and unload the undesirables. In return, the greys get a steady supply of desirable models from the ADs.

Although I can't say im thrilled about these giant waitlists and 200% markups, the greys allow ADs to survive. Without the greys, your local AD might go the way of Radio Shack.

[KBM]

Originally Posted by oldman2005

it's a greed game, not a love game. So just accept it and move on.

This single sentence just hit me like a ton of bricks.

I think you are right. This almost makes me want to step back from the hobby.

[ALF61]

Originally Posted by Finslayer83

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

I don´t fully agree with this comment. You could compare hot Rolex watches to a hot commodity trading on the exchange.

Except for a very important thing. On a free market be it a house market or a hot commodity, the playing field is leveled for everyone. You have regulations by the SEC or CFTC that protect participants so there are no abuses.

Because of limited supply by the sole provider in this case Rolex, and the supply being passed on to select clients by the AD´s, the playing field IS NOT LEVELED for everyone. Further, when I see all these images of the new SS BLRO with full stickers and the supposedly tight restrictions by AD´s removing them, witholding warranty card etc., and you see these gray dealers showcasing in the internet without these restrictions, you start thinking that some AD´s are not playing by the rules and possibly are part of the same gray dealer in a parallel form.

Is there dirty play in here ? to me there is at least a gray area.

[uhren917]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

"Don't hate the player, Hate the game"

...
I am not defending the Grey's I am defending capitalism, and anyone who has the guts to be in business!

I have to be amused everytime I see the arguement made that this is capitalism. No it is NOT.

Lots of economists on this forum.

Based on Gresham's Law, where as a monetary "pure" market principle, "bad money drives out good" so if there are two forms of a commodity in circulation, the more higher priced commodity will gradually disappear from circulation. Therefore prices would revert to MSRP.

This aint happening anytime soon if at all. What is going on is let's make a buck.

BTW, I am all for making a buck and understand the role Grays play in helping out ADs.

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by uhren917

I have to be amused everytime I see the arguement made that this is capitalism. No it is NOT.

Lots of economists on this forum.

Based on Gresham's Law, where as a monetary "pure" market principle, "bad money drives out good" so if there are two forms of a commodity in circulation, the more higher priced commodity will gradually disappear from circulation. Therefore prices would revert to MSRP.

This aint happening anytime soon if at all. What is going on is let's make a buck.

BTW, I am all for making a buck and understand the role Grays play in helping out ADs.

I believe it will happen in time when some current metrics are adjusted and/or the global economy moves in the opposite direction.

[Cold904L]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

Am I somewhat frustrated I can't go buy a batman today for instant gratification, I guess. But as the phys majors will tell you if that's the case the batman would be more like robin!

Good points until “phys majors”....

More like “psych majors” (social psychology to be exact—Scarcity Principle)

[uhren917]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

I believe it will happen in time when some current metrics are adjusted and/or the global economy moves in the opposite direction.

I for one cant time the market, if I could I would not be on this forum.

Prices for watches could be much higher when that downturn happens or much lower, I have no clue.

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by uhren917

I for one cant time the market, if I could I would not be on this forum.

Prices for watches could be much higher when that downturn happens or much lower, I have no clue.

agreed

[Shiny1]

Thumbs up, interesting read

[123Blueface]

All hope is lost when so many begin to accept it as the norm.

[jvd99]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

Thanks for that, I had to Google it to know what on Earth you were talking about and I learned something new today.

I had assumed from the name and the mark-up that it was some sort of, ahem, gentleman’s “tonic”.

That's funny - but these US limited edition bourbons end up in European and UK auction houses regularly because our laws generally do not permit such transactions

[RHJ]

Originally Posted by Finslayer83

Everyone loves capitalism until its time to do capitalist things..

... or to suffer from

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by ALF61

I don´t fully agree with this comment. You could compare hot Rolex watches to a hot commodity trading on the exchange.

Except for a very important thing. On a free market be it a house market or a hot commodity, the playing field is leveled for everyone. You have regulations by the SEC or CFTC that protect participants so there are no abuses.

Because of limited supply by the sole provider in this case Rolex, and the supply being passed on to select clients by the AD´s, the playing field IS NOT LEVELED for everyone.

A lot of people on this forum subscribe to laissez faire, live and breathe pure capitalism. What they don't understand is that creating a level/somewhat regulated market is ultimately healthy for all involved.

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

All hope is lost when so many begin to accept it as the norm.

Bingo

[Jim Smyth]

My Grey is my AD. I have built that relation over many years and many deals. No complaints..........

[Fleetlord]

The grey market is necessary co-distribution channel for Rolex. They will never admit this,but the reality is that a watch sold is a future order filled regardless.

The problem was that there were too many watches out there and the prices were getting too low. A race to the bottom as Greys fought to undercut each other.

That is not a good look for a luxury brand. Having a substantial number of references BELOW MSRP on the grey market is nasty business for brand prestige.

Rolex can see what happens to a brand that lets things get out of control. They get soft and weak. Undesirable. Uncool. Unsold.

Clear evidence is seen with the continuing demise of other swiss brands who are not controlling their distribution. Richemont for example. They bought back millions of junky references to keep them from being BLOWN OUT on the grey market. They had to take drastic, emergency action to reel in the impending disaster...

Rolex took much less drastic action by simply limiting supply of product. That cleaned up the secondary market pricing very nicely. Now the watches are trading higher than MSRP and brand integrity and prestige is restored. Good job Rolex.

You must ask yourself, what do you want?

Do you want a brand that is strong and desirable? If so, this is how it is done. It is not ROLEX themselves being mean and nasty...It's US! WE (as the market) dictate what the conditions are by our buying behavior. We WANT things MORE the LESS we can have them.

Other brands aren't limiting production and have plenty of great watches available via an AD at any time. Guess what? NOBODY WANTS THEM!

They aren't spoken about on forums, there is no buzz or excitement over them. No anticipation of their new releases. They just kind of exist.

Is that what you want Rolex to be?

[Ballzzz]

Rolex cares about sales first and foremost, numbers don't lie.

BUT

A close second or maybe even first is brand image and appeal. This is there whole existence and they are masters at it. I believe the current conditions are a direct result of there calculated plays.

The one thing I "hope" they do not like is the inflate grey market prices, because they see it as money left on the table to a degree.

On the flip-side...

They can possibly love it as it just shows how strong the brand truly is and they ride out on there white horse with there perceived "fair" prices.

Only few will know the truth and that's that.

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The grey market is necessary co-distribution channel for Rolex. They will never admit this,but the reality is that a watch sold is a future order filled regardless.

The problem was that there were too many watches out there and the prices were getting too low. A race to the bottom as Greys fought to undercut each other.

That is not a good look for a luxury brand. Having a substantial number of references BELOW MSRP on the grey market is nasty business for brand prestige.

Rolex can see what happens to a brand that lets things get out of control. They get soft and weak. Undesirable. Uncool. Unsold.

Clear evidence is seen with the continuing demise of other swiss brands who are not controlling their distribution. Richemont for example. They bought back millions of junky references to keep them from being BLOWN OUT on the grey market. They had to take drastic, emergency action to reel in the impending disaster...

Rolex took much less drastic action by simply limiting supply of product. That cleaned up the secondary market pricing very nicely. Now the watches are trading higher than MSRP and brand integrity and prestige is restored. Good job Rolex.

You must ask yourself, what do you want?

Do you want a brand that is strong and desirable? If so, this is how it is done. It is not ROLEX themselves being mean and nasty...It's US! WE (as the market) dictate what the conditions are by our buying behavior. We WANT things MORE the LESS we can have them.

Other brands aren't limiting production and have plenty of great watches available via an AD at any time. Guess what? NOBODY WANTS THEM!

They aren't spoken about on forums, there is no buzz or excitement over them. No anticipation of their new releases. They just kind of exist.

Is that what you want Rolex to be?

[watchwatcher]

Oh, I don't hate anybody...greys, AD's, even whiners on this forum.

Life's too short. And hey...here's a concept: it's a friggin' watch people. Get over it.

[tommy91]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The grey market is necessary co-distribution channel for Rolex. They will never admit this,but the reality is that a watch sold is a future order filled regardless.

The problem was that there were too many watches out there and the prices were getting too low. A race to the bottom as Greys fought to undercut each other.

That is not a good look for a luxury brand. Having a substantial number of references BELOW MSRP on the grey market is nasty business for brand prestige.

Rolex can see what happens to a brand that lets things get out of control. They get soft and weak. Undesirable. Uncool. Unsold.

Clear evidence is seen with the continuing demise of other swiss brands who are not controlling their distribution. Richemont for example. They bought back millions of junky references to keep them from being BLOWN OUT on the grey market. They had to take drastic, emergency action to reel in the impending disaster...

Rolex took much less drastic action by simply limiting supply of product. That cleaned up the secondary market pricing very nicely. Now the watches are trading higher than MSRP and brand integrity and prestige is restored. Good job Rolex.

You must ask yourself, what do you want?

Do you want a brand that is strong and desirable? If so, this is how it is done. It is not ROLEX themselves being mean and nasty...It's US! WE (as the market) dictate what the conditions are by our buying behavior. We WANT things MORE the LESS we can have them.

Other brands aren't limiting production and have plenty of great watches available via an AD at any time. Guess what? NOBODY WANTS THEM!

They aren't spoken about on forums, there is no buzz or excitement over them. No anticipation of their new releases. They just kind of exist.

Is that what you want Rolex to be?

I just wish Rolex cut out ADs all together and went to internet sales only. They can reduce supply if they want and orders placed online for desirable models can be put in a fair list so wait time wouldn't be as long. It's the ADs and there stupid lists which annoy me and the amount of rubbish they talk.

[askdanny]

We’re pissed at the greys because they’re doing exactly what Rolex fails to do: price according to market value


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[samson66]

I paid a premium for my Sea Dweller SD43 from a gray, however I also sold (trade +cash) my previous watch to the same gray and had an easy no-stress no-hassle sale for a good price at the same time.

So it works both ways. He helped me, I helped him, one of those transactions where both sides win.

[imperio]

Good morning. What game are we talking about?

[American Jedi]

Demand or not, a 12k (Daytona) watch should never garner an 8K hype premium. 1k is Palatable, but eight? If the manufacturer (Who in sane world is usually the most ludicrous price possible)doesn’t think it’s worth more than 12K. It most likely isn’t worth 20+ by any stretch of the imagination. I mean heck obviously they knew this, Because not long ago I could usually get a 10% discount at the AD without him looking at me like I was on a controlled substance.

I believe most people are leaving the gray market, because they realize it is hurting their hobby, and more than anything there principles will not allow it.