Journe or Patek

[galtinuk]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate your comments and civility. I will level with you - sometimes, forums on the internet can be perhaps a bit slanted or biased to or away from certain brands and if a member goes against that grain they can be ostracised. I like this forum but I also realize I don't have the post count here that I have on another watch forum (tz) so I am new to this community. I don't want to jeopardise that as I know Journe is a well liked and respected brand here and they indeed make amazing watches. I am not saying that this community is like that (biased), I am saying that I am a newer member who does not have a good idea of the culture of Rolex Forums and as such I posted my last comment with great trepidation. It is also why my previous post was even more vague. Simply put, I don't want to step on any toes, offend anyone or stir the pot. Below are my own findings. Right or wrong, take them with a grain of salt: I am not a watch maker, I have never been to Journe nor have I met the man. I am just going by what I've heard or read. I can not vouch for the accuracy of any of it so take it for what it is worth.

So what happened?

Well, I am looking for a new daily wearer. Currently I typically wear my Breguet 5817 on a strap. It's sporty and casual enough for me but it also has a certain elegance to it. It was my first 'good' watch and to this day I love it. But as it goes with this hobby, you always want more. I wanted something more low key but still from a well respected brand. Patek, obviously, fits the bill of "well respected" and the 5146 with its slate gray dial is a nice wearable size, elegant but still a little sporty and has oodles of useful (for me) complications. Then I read the Hodinkee article about the Journe and the Chronometer Bleu caught my attention. The dark case and blue dial is unobtainable but I liked the watch so the CS in Platinum can be had for about the same as the Patek in Canada, so began my search. The Journe, with the guilloche dial and blued hands is much dressier than the Patek, but I love how under the radar Journe is as a brand. I don't believe many would recognize it unless they were a watch lover. So my inquiry was posted, but in all honestly, I was leaning towards the Patek at that time.

Then the community overwhelmingly felt the Journe was the way to go - And thank you for the guidance! I stared reading more posts here about Journe and became quite taken with the brand and styling. Those hands, man... Those are very special hands. I as hooked on Journe.

What raised an eyebrow of mine, however, were indeed two comments left here: the stamped dials and high amount of machine finishing. Neither of these are inherently bad but, for me, watch making at this level (read: price) isn't really about making a good well finished watch - we are well past that - it is about the romance. Honestly, I think this reigns true for many of us, and even if it doesn't, it does for me. Rolex, which we know has a large amount of machining, market that it takes a year to create one; implying the toil of a tireless Swiss watchmaker and the copious amount of care they spend making your watch. After all, machines are faster than people so no one would believe an all machine assembly would take a year. Anyway, my point is, that hand-craft is at the heart and soul of haute horlogerie and at the level of Journe something being hand made is important to me. Right or wrong, that's how I personally feel.

So I dug.

I PM'ed a few members here and on the other forum. What is the factory like? What is the process like? And over and over again it came back as highly automated with only certain details and finishes being made by hand. I suppose not too different than Patek (though, apparently Patek does more hand finishing than Journe, but I have no way of knowing exactly what that means). At the same time, I was digging around Patek, and it sounds like much of the work is again automated aside for their very high-end watches (tourbillions, repeaters, etc).

What also came back was that a few members have met or dealt with Mr. Journe himself and there was something that everyone seemed to slip in: arrogant or ego. I understand that he is a very successful and talented individual, but arrogance is not a quality I value. That arrogance is reflected down to his creations but more of that later.

I dug some more.

I called the one Canadian AD. They were very pleasant and prompt to deal with. The person at the AD was clearly passionate about watches (which is really nice!) and had a love for what she was selling. But, what I did discover, and this can happen with smaller brands (MB&F is a good example) is that Journe does not have a Canadian MSRP - the watch price is set on the exchange rate at the time it comes in. Again, not a big deal, and, I believe it is up the AD, but does cause the price of the watch to fluctuate a few thousand dollars; a few thousand dollars that I have to commit to before knowing the final price. IE, I have to buy the watch and put down a deposit while they order it and I won't know a final cost until it arrives. It happens, but it is a deterrent especially with today's dollar volatility. Finally, I would also have to fly to Vancouver (I live in Toronto) to make the deposit on the watch (that's their policy). This is a 5 hour flight each way, plus travel to and from the airports, plus the cost of staying there overnight, meals and, obviously the time commitment. It does add considerable cost and inconvenience to buying the watch.

But is that a deal breaker? If you love the watch, so what?

I felt more digging was needed.

The next issue is servicing. There was another person here on the forum (if I recall correctly) who was a fellow Canadian and wanted to get his Journe serviced and contacted the same AD about it. The issue was that when the AD ships the watch out, because they didn't sell the watch and therefor don't have the importation documents, he could be liable for duty on the value of the ENTIRE watch (not just the service cost) on its way home. For me, in Ontario, that would be in the neighbourhood of $5500 on top of the cost of servicing. This is a MAJOR concern - the AD has only been a Journe dealer for about a year and, let's face it, dealers change. I could be facing that fee if I don't have it serviced through them. Or not. But it is a risk and there is a real Journe owner right now in Canada facing that dilemma. It would also involve me having to get the watch to Vancouver for servicing which is a challenge again.

But wait, what if I have it serviced locally in Canada?

Good point. I did more yet digging. Let's see who can service a Journe in Canada.

I did some calling around and a few said they wouldn't touch it as it was too expensive/complicated - fine. One said he would - great. And finally, another said he wouldn't but also shed light as to why... I want to go back to the supposed ego that Mr. Journe allegedly has that I heard of earlier. We've all noticed the odd screws on the back - a sort of lock out system in an attempt to keep other watch makers out. To me, that's annoying and certainly bull headed, but fine. What this watchmaker said, and I can't confirm it but I also have no reason to doubt it, is that the hands on a Journe are tapered so that the metal gets thinner where it attached to the stem. This has no visual impact but what apparently happens is the hole in the hands is widened when the hands are removed so then when they are reinstalled they will not 'grip' the center post anymore. He said that you may be able to remove them once and be fine, but eventually they will fail and the only place to get new Journe hands, is Journe. This, typically, isn't really an issue as why bother removing the hands for a service, right? On the Chronometre Souverain the wheel train is under the movement forcing one to remove the dial, hence hands, to service the movement. I did read this somewhere else prior to my conversation with the watch maker but I can't for the life of my find it (it may have been in a PM). Again, this is something I cannot personally confirm but I have heard it from two separate sources.

To take deliberate steps, which I can't help feel this is the case if this is true, to force people to service it though Journe is not something I like. At any rate the odd screws are designed to keep others out. That, to me, is reflection of the ego of the culture of the company. Journe itself may not be around forever. What then?

Journe is a relatively new brand on a high right now: they are the new hot kid on the block. Perhaps an ego is warranted. But honeymoons end. There was a time when Chronoswiss had a bright future, too.

Now, you may be thinking, why would getting the watch to and from a different country be anymore of an issue for a Journe than it would be for, say Patek or Lange or any other European brand?

Good question. And I really don't know but it seems to be. When I had my USA bought Breguet serviced, I brought it to the Swatch head office here in Toronto and it was just the cost of servicing. Same for my Rolex watches. The same goes from JLC's. But here we have a real case of a Journe owner trying to get his watch serviced through an AD and that is the trouble he is running into and the AD confirmed what was going on. Fine.

So let's look at other examples I have personally experienced.

With my JLC, specifically, they do have a service center in Canada, however, I have an original 1958 Geophysic which is a bit more delicate to work with than a new watch. I dropped it off at a local JLC AD and they arranged to have it sent to JLC for me. The JLC service center here took one look at and quickly said that they would not touch it and it would have to go to Switzerland for servicing. The watch was purchased 50 years ago in Vienna so there are no import documents and I was not charged any duty, just the cost of servicing.

I bought my Lange in Paris. When I came home it was running quite fast so I sent an email to Lange. They called me from Germany and I even spoke to one of the Lange watchmakers who was very kind and helpful. They offered to arrange everything to get my watch to Alkis in NYC to have it timed, at no charge, but the watchmaker first suggested that I get the watch demagnetized. The Lange dealer here can't do that but Lange Germany contacted the Cartier boutique (same family) and arranged to have them do it on site for me. I live walking distance to the boutique and while I waited for them to demagnetize my watch and put in on a timing machine they entertained me by showing my Cariter's latest offerings. It fixed the issue and my watch has been working perfectly since.

My point is the difference in service... Journe can't really help this other fellow out, nor can the AD as he didn't purchase it there. In my case the Lange dealer here offered to work with Lange to get my watch to Alkis at no charge and Lange worked with another brand to help me. All for a watch I bought in a different country. JLC serviced my watch out of country with no issue through an AD I did not buy it from.

That is service you don't soon forget and it went a long way to building brand loyalty.

Again, I can't tell you why JLC and Lange don't have the issue of Federal duty on the value of the entire watch like Journe but this is the information I have as it stands from both talking to the AD, reading the posts of the other owner and personal experience.

So, in the end, the uncertainty about future servicing, a final cost of the watch, negative comments about the corporate culture and minimal hand finishing left me feeling that a Journe wasn't in the cards for me. When I compare the experience I had with Lange and what I've read and heard about the amount of hand work that goes into their watches it was a easy decision to stick with Lange. The sheer fact that one can identify which person did the engravings just by visual inspection speaks volume about them.

But why not go back to the Patek? It's still a great watch and the runner up!

Yes. Yes it is. From an amazing brand, no less.

Well, with all the thought of watches I did pop into my favorite local AD; I mean any excuse to go in is good excuse, right? "My" salesmen there is always a joy to see: he insists I have a bottled water, coffee or something else every time I go in. He always makes a special effort to walk me around the store and show me what's new. When I went in last time we finished the tour, as we seemingly always do, at the Lange counter. Out he pulls the platinum Lange 1 moon/day/night. Gasp. Here's a watch that really gets my heart pumping. It is a devastatingly beautiful watch; if you ever have the opportunity to try one on, you are depriving yourself by not ceasing the opportunity. I can not do it justice. WOW! Seems unemphatic when talking about this watch. Simply put, it is magnificent and briefly made my forget my own name.

I fell in love. Hard.

So I've fallen for another, I'm sorry, Patek. Honestly, seeing this Lange 1 would have made me forget about Journe no matter what I would have read about them.

Having said that, the Lange 1 is significantly more money than either the Patek or the Journe so I have to save my pennies a little longer before making the plunge, but that's the name of game and one of my virtues is patience. Plus, did I mention how stunning the Lange 1 is??!

There you have it; what happened.

Again, take it all with a grain of salt - I have no idea if anything that I found out about Journe is fact or fiction. Essentially, it is all hearsay. But it's all I have to go on. Please, I mean no offense to anyone with this post. I was asked about my findings so I posted them. I was hesitant in posting because it isn't necessarily the most favourable post about a beloved brand. If this offends anyone, I apologise, that was not my intent. It is just my meager findings and I hope it doesn't take anything away from any current or future Journe owners enjoyment of what, by all measures, makes wonderful watches that are supremely well finished and designed.

Warmest regards,

-Paul

That strikes me as a very sincere and thoughtful response.

Also, really helpful to know where you were coming from RE your decision and the specifics surrounding it. I think that helps take the mystery out of the situation and also helps others to understand which points are and are not relevant to them.

I also can see why you were reluctant to say anything as to explain quite a bit of detail--much of which very situation specific.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[eviperman]

That was indeed a very detailed and thoughtful reply, thank you!

You didn't "owe" it, but as I and others said, it was good to hear your thought process and "journey" in the detail you provided, so thank you.

I love FPJ for that "magic", Patek for the "history" (and their grand complications), and Lange for the "German finishing"... so to be honest, Lange is never a bad choice... best of luck acquriring it!

As for FPJ... Mr Journe does want his watches serviced by his factory which I'm perfectly fine with. I don't even have an AD in my country and have never had issues servicing it (I do travel a lot, so I go out of my way to drop it into a boutique when its needed and tend to service multiple watches at the same time). For me, I only get Lange and Patek to service my watches so I don't have an issue with FPJ using specific screws as I choose to send each of these brands back home every 5 years... after all, they are significant items so when it comes to servicing, I want the best people working on them.

Thanks once again for sharing your thoughts!

Personally, this movement is what I mean by "magic" (courtesy of Deployant):

[tryptobphan]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Again, take it all with a grain of salt - I have no idea if anything that I found out about Journe is fact or fiction. Essentially, it is all hearsay. But it's all I have to go on. Please, I mean no offense to anyone with this post. I was asked about my findings so I posted them. I was hesitant in posting because it isn't necessarily the most favourable post about a beloved brand. If this offends anyone, I apologise, that was not my intent. It is just my meager findings and I hope it doesn't take anything away from any current or future Journe owners enjoyment of what, by all measures, makes wonderful watches that are supremely well finished and designed.

Warmest regards,

-Paul

You didn't owe anyone anything, but that was one of the best and most thoughtful posts I've read in quite some time, maybe even ever on a watch forum. Thank you for sharing us your journey. I hope to go through my own journeys in the future, too.

Good luck saving up for that Lange 1 Moon. That's definitely a grail watch for me, too.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

What this watchmaker said, and I can't confirm it but I also have no reason to doubt it, is that the hands on a Journe are tapered so that the metal gets thinner where it attached to the stem. This has no visual impact but what apparently happens is the hole in the hands is widened when the hands are removed so then when they are reinstalled they will not 'grip' the center post anymore. He said that you may be able to remove them once and be fine, but eventually they will fail and the only place to get new Journe hands, is Journe. This, typically, isn't really an issue as why bother removing the hands for a service, right? On the Chronometre Souverain the wheel train is under the movement forcing one to remove the dial, hence hands, to service the movement. I did read this somewhere else prior to my conversation with the watch maker but I can't for the life of my find it (it may have been in a PM). Again, this is something I cannot personally confirm but I have heard it from two separate sources.

I think most good watchmakers completely disassemble any watch for service, and Rolex certainly do. This means removing the hands. It's a bit difficult for me to understand why Journe hands should be more vulnerable than any other hands, but I don't think they'd cost much to replace, if necessary.

I don't live in Canada, so don't know about your import laws, but I would have thought it would be shipped marked "goods for service" on the way out and "goods returned from service" with attached invoice on the return leg. Import Duty shouldn't figure as you haven't imported anything.

P.S. I'd choose the FPJ. I have the same 5146G you were considering, and it's great, but I'd rather have that Journe.

[belligero]

Indeed, removing the hands is literally the first thing that happens after the movement is out of the case for servicing.

[WatcherofTime]

First I must say, I love Patek. But, given the two choices that are mentioned here.....Journe, the hands down winner!

[jenniferjanef]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

That's one of the big things about the Journe that turned me off. There is less hand finishing that one might expect.

Back to Lange for me personally.

If you looking for more.. do consider Roger W Smith or one of those Philippe Dufour.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by belligero

Indeed, removing the hands is literally the first thing that happens after the movement is out of the case for servicing.

In the light of this, the other remarks from this anonymous watchmaker become more than a little moot.

FPJ is rumoured to be egotistical, but in fact according to close friends he's quite a shy man who does not seek the limelight, he's far too busy innovating. This natural diffidence, plus his inability to speak English, sometimes come across as brusque. OTOH, I don't think he's a man who suffers fools gladly, either.

As to the finish of his watches, well have a look at the photo upthread, simply breathtaking.

[Jay (Eire)]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate your comments and civility. I will level with you - sometimes, forums on the internet can be perhaps a bit slanted or biased to or away from certain brands and if a member goes against that grain they can be ostracised. I like this forum but I also realize I don't have the post count here that I have on another watch forum (tz) so I am new to this community. I don't want to jeopardise that as I know Journe is a well liked and respected brand here and they indeed make amazing watches. I am not saying that this community is like that (biased), I am saying that I am a newer member who does not have a good idea of the culture of Rolex Forums and as such I posted my last comment with great trepidation. It is also why my previous post was even more vague. Simply put, I don't want to step on any toes, offend anyone or stir the pot. Below are my own findings. Right or wrong, take them with a grain of salt: I am not a watch maker, I have never been to Journe nor have I met the man. I am just going by what I've heard or read. I can not vouch for the accuracy of any of it so take it for what it is worth.

So what happened?

Well, I am looking for a new daily wearer. Currently I typically wear my Breguet 5817 on a strap. It's sporty and casual enough for me but it also has a certain elegance to it. It was my first 'good' watch and to this day I love it. But as it goes with this hobby, you always want more. I wanted something more low key but still from a well respected brand. Patek, obviously, fits the bill of "well respected" and the 5146 with its slate gray dial is a nice wearable size, elegant but still a little sporty and has oodles of useful (for me) complications. Then I read the Hodinkee article about the Journe and the Chronometer Bleu caught my attention. The dark case and blue dial is unobtainable but I liked the watch so the CS in Platinum can be had for about the same as the Patek in Canada, so began my search. The Journe, with the guilloche dial and blued hands is much dressier than the Patek, but I love how under the radar Journe is as a brand. I don't believe many would recognize it unless they were a watch lover. So my inquiry was posted, but in all honestly, I was leaning towards the Patek at that time.

Then the community overwhelmingly felt the Journe was the way to go - And thank you for the guidance! I stared reading more posts here about Journe and became quite taken with the brand and styling. Those hands, man... Those are very special hands. I as hooked on Journe.

What raised an eyebrow of mine, however, were indeed two comments left here: the stamped dials and high amount of machine finishing. Neither of these are inherently bad but, for me, watch making at this level (read: price) isn't really about making a good well finished watch - we are well past that - it is about the romance. Honestly, I think this reigns true for many of us, and even if it doesn't, it does for me. Rolex, which we know has a large amount of machining, market that it takes a year to create one; implying the toil of a tireless Swiss watchmaker and the copious amount of care they spend making your watch. After all, machines are faster than people so no one would believe an all machine assembly would take a year. Anyway, my point is, that hand-craft is at the heart and soul of haute horlogerie and at the level of Journe something being hand made is important to me. Right or wrong, that's how I personally feel.

So I dug.

I PM'ed a few members here and on the other forum. What is the factory like? What is the process like? And over and over again it came back as highly automated with only certain details and finishes being made by hand. I suppose not too different than Patek (though, apparently Patek does more hand finishing than Journe, but I have no way of knowing exactly what that means). At the same time, I was digging around Patek, and it sounds like much of the work is again automated aside for their very high-end watches (tourbillions, repeaters, etc).

What also came back was that a few members have met or dealt with Mr. Journe himself and there was something that everyone seemed to slip in: arrogant or ego. I understand that he is a very successful and talented individual, but arrogance is not a quality I value. That arrogance is reflected down to his creations but more of that later.

I dug some more.

I called the one Canadian AD. They were very pleasant and prompt to deal with. The person at the AD was clearly passionate about watches (which is really nice!) and had a love for what she was selling. But, what I did discover, and this can happen with smaller brands (MB&F is a good example) is that Journe does not have a Canadian MSRP - the watch price is set on the exchange rate at the time it comes in. Again, not a big deal, and, I believe it is up the AD, but does cause the price of the watch to fluctuate a few thousand dollars; a few thousand dollars that I have to commit to before knowing the final price. IE, I have to buy the watch and put down a deposit while they order it and I won't know a final cost until it arrives. It happens, but it is a deterrent especially with today's dollar volatility. Finally, I would also have to fly to Vancouver (I live in Toronto) to make the deposit on the watch (that's their policy). This is a 5 hour flight each way, plus travel to and from the airports, plus the cost of staying there overnight, meals and, obviously the time commitment. It does add considerable cost and inconvenience to buying the watch.

But is that a deal breaker? If you love the watch, so what?

I felt more digging was needed.

The next issue is servicing. There was another person here on the forum (if I recall correctly) who was a fellow Canadian and wanted to get his Journe serviced and contacted the same AD about it. The issue was that when the AD ships the watch out, because they didn't sell the watch and therefor don't have the importation documents, he could be liable for duty on the value of the ENTIRE watch (not just the service cost) on its way home. For me, in Ontario, that would be in the neighbourhood of $5500 on top of the cost of servicing. This is a MAJOR concern - the AD has only been a Journe dealer for about a year and, let's face it, dealers change. I could be facing that fee if I don't have it serviced through them. Or not. But it is a risk and there is a real Journe owner right now in Canada facing that dilemma. It would also involve me having to get the watch to Vancouver for servicing which is a challenge again.

But wait, what if I have it serviced locally in Canada?

Good point. I did more yet digging. Let's see who can service a Journe in Canada.

I did some calling around and a few said they wouldn't touch it as it was too expensive/complicated - fine. One said he would - great. And finally, another said he wouldn't but also shed light as to why... I want to go back to the supposed ego that Mr. Journe allegedly has that I heard of earlier. We've all noticed the odd screws on the back - a sort of lock out system in an attempt to keep other watch makers out. To me, that's annoying and certainly bull headed, but fine. What this watchmaker said, and I can't confirm it but I also have no reason to doubt it, is that the hands on a Journe are tapered so that the metal gets thinner where it attached to the stem. This has no visual impact but what apparently happens is the hole in the hands is widened when the hands are removed so then when they are reinstalled they will not 'grip' the center post anymore. He said that you may be able to remove them once and be fine, but eventually they will fail and the only place to get new Journe hands, is Journe. This, typically, isn't really an issue as why bother removing the hands for a service, right? On the Chronometre Souverain the wheel train is under the movement forcing one to remove the dial, hence hands, to service the movement. I did read this somewhere else prior to my conversation with the watch maker but I can't for the life of my find it (it may have been in a PM). Again, this is something I cannot personally confirm but I have heard it from two separate sources.

To take deliberate steps, which I can't help feel this is the case if this is true, to force people to service it though Journe is not something I like. At any rate the odd screws are designed to keep others out. That, to me, is reflection of the ego of the culture of the company. Journe itself may not be around forever. What then?

Journe is a relatively new brand on a high right now: they are the new hot kid on the block. Perhaps an ego is warranted. But honeymoons end. There was a time when Chronoswiss had a bright future, too.

Now, you may be thinking, why would getting the watch to and from a different country be anymore of an issue for a Journe than it would be for, say Patek or Lange or any other European brand?

Good question. And I really don't know but it seems to be. When I had my USA bought Breguet serviced, I brought it to the Swatch head office here in Toronto and it was just the cost of servicing. Same for my Rolex watches. The same goes from JLC's. But here we have a real case of a Journe owner trying to get his watch serviced through an AD and that is the trouble he is running into and the AD confirmed what was going on. Fine.

So let's look at other examples I have personally experienced.

With my JLC, specifically, they do have a service center in Canada, however, I have an original 1958 Geophysic which is a bit more delicate to work with than a new watch. I dropped it off at a local JLC AD and they arranged to have it sent to JLC for me. The JLC service center here took one look at and quickly said that they would not touch it and it would have to go to Switzerland for servicing. The watch was purchased 50 years ago in Vienna so there are no import documents and I was not charged any duty, just the cost of servicing.

I bought my Lange in Paris. When I came home it was running quite fast so I sent an email to Lange. They called me from Germany and I even spoke to one of the Lange watchmakers who was very kind and helpful. They offered to arrange everything to get my watch to Alkis in NYC to have it timed, at no charge, but the watchmaker first suggested that I get the watch demagnetized. The Lange dealer here can't do that but Lange Germany contacted the Cartier boutique (same family) and arranged to have them do it on site for me. I live walking distance to the boutique and while I waited for them to demagnetize my watch and put in on a timing machine they entertained me by showing my Cariter's latest offerings. It fixed the issue and my watch has been working perfectly since.

My point is the difference in service... Journe can't really help this other fellow out, nor can the AD as he didn't purchase it there. In my case the Lange dealer here offered to work with Lange to get my watch to Alkis at no charge and Lange worked with another brand to help me. All for a watch I bought in a different country. JLC serviced my watch out of country with no issue through an AD I did not buy it from.

That is service you don't soon forget and it went a long way to building brand loyalty.

Again, I can't tell you why JLC and Lange don't have the issue of Federal duty on the value of the entire watch like Journe but this is the information I have as it stands from both talking to the AD, reading the posts of the other owner and personal experience.

So, in the end, the uncertainty about future servicing, a final cost of the watch, negative comments about the corporate culture and minimal hand finishing left me feeling that a Journe wasn't in the cards for me. When I compare the experience I had with Lange and what I've read and heard about the amount of hand work that goes into their watches it was a easy decision to stick with Lange. The sheer fact that one can identify which person did the engravings just by visual inspection speaks volume about them.

But why not go back to the Patek? It's still a great watch and the runner up!

Yes. Yes it is. From an amazing brand, no less.

Well, with all the thought of watches I did pop into my favorite local AD; I mean any excuse to go in is good excuse, right? "My" salesmen there is always a joy to see: he insists I have a bottled water, coffee or something else every time I go in. He always makes a special effort to walk me around the store and show me what's new. When I went in last time we finished the tour, as we seemingly always do, at the Lange counter. Out he pulls the platinum Lange 1 moon/day/night. Gasp. Here's a watch that really gets my heart pumping. It is a devastatingly beautiful watch; if you ever have the opportunity to try one on, you are depriving yourself by not ceasing the opportunity. I can not do it justice. WOW! Seems unemphatic when talking about this watch. Simply put, it is magnificent and briefly made my forget my own name.

I fell in love. Hard.

So I've fallen for another, I'm sorry, Patek. Honestly, seeing this Lange 1 would have made me forget about Journe no matter what I would have read about them.

Having said that, the Lange 1 is significantly more money than either the Patek or the Journe so I have to save my pennies a little longer before making the plunge, but that's the name of game and one of my virtues is patience. Plus, did I mention how stunning the Lange 1 is??!

There you have it; what happened.

Again, take it all with a grain of salt - I have no idea if anything that I found out about Journe is fact or fiction. Essentially, it is all hearsay. But it's all I have to go on. Please, I mean no offense to anyone with this post. I was asked about my findings so I posted them. I was hesitant in posting because it isn't necessarily the most favourable post about a beloved brand. If this offends anyone, I apologise, that was not my intent. It is just my meager findings and I hope it doesn't take anything away from any current or future Journe owners enjoyment of what, by all measures, makes wonderful watches that are supremely well finished and designed.

Warmest regards,

-Paul

Paul. Appreciate the feedback here and thanks for sharing the process with us.

The real point of this threads is to inform the OP but the secondary benefit is to inform others about the thought process of other collectors and of course the sharing of information which may be valuable to others in their search.

The beauty of our little hobby is that tastes differ, and fortunately there's something out there for everyone!


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[codecow]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

FPJ is rumoured to be egotistical, but in fact according to close friends he's quite a shy man who does not seek the limelight, he's far too busy innovating. This natural diffidence, plus his inability to speak English, sometimes come across as brusque. OTOH, I don't think he's a man who suffers fools gladly, either.

I have met him and went to a fairly large ~15 people dinner with him. I wouldn't say he is egotistical. He understands some English for sure as he was answering questions from me without waiting for someone to translate in a few cases.

He let me actuate his personal minute repeater and hung out with a bunch of dingy watch nerds and explained the thinking and innovations behind some of the pieces his customers had brought with them.

[tigerpac]

Have met FP a few times (NYC and Geneva) and he's always been cordial and loved to answer questions about his (and other watches).

As a matter of fact, in Geneva, he actually stopped working, got up from his workstation, and walked my wife and I around to meet the other watchmakers... including the watchmaker who put my CS together start to finish.

Very cool experience.

[woodsworth]

Was never a fan of that particular Patek.

I'd go for the FPJ, but I would certainly go for a Lange 1, Lange 1 MP, or an 1815 Chrono over either of those watches--- albeit quite different.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by oldcarz

Very well written and thoughtful response. Thank you for sharing. Good luck with the Lange 1 (it IS a gorgeous watch)

If you'd had the L1 MP form the start it probably would have won.

[Rebel]

Fpj

[kunlun]

There may be a touch of harmless trolling going on as FPJ is a step above Patek.

Don't believe me? Well, look at the beautifully finished FPJ posted above and look at this Patek...

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...=0#msg_7391761

And then look at who posted that picture. And that's why I mention a touch of trolling, just a little fun being had.

Of course, people should choose whatever they love. But, in terms of the reasoning given, eh well...

I don't mean to say that all Pateks are like that one, they are mostly excellently finished, although this is more true for their grand complications than it is for a base level nautilus or calatrava (both of which have stamped dials, so that's another null point). But FPJ is a step up and ALS is widely thought to be one of the very best mass produced high end watch brands.

[eviperman]

Originally Posted by kunlun

There may be a touch of harmless trolling going on as FPJ is a step above Patek.

Don't believe me? Well, look at the beautifully finished FPJ posted above and look at this Patek...

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...=0#msg_7391761

And then look at who posted that picture. And that's why I mention a touch of trolling, just a little fun being had.

Of course, people should choose whatever they love. But, in terms of the reasoning given, eh well...

I don't mean to say that all Pateks are like that one, they are mostly excellently finished, although this is more true for their grand complications than it is for a base level nautilus or calatrava (both of which have stamped dials, so that's another null point). But FPJ is a step up and ALS is widely thought to be one of the very best mass produced high end watch brands.

LOL... Good find :)

[nick c]

Both are amazing,but Patek for me.

[DGB]

The sales director at the Paris Boutique confirmed to me that their watches are hand finished.
Not sure from where the idea of machine finish came from.
FPJ makes less than a 1000 watches per year v/s PP who does tens of thousands per year. It seems logic to me that FPJ has a higher level of hand finished products IMHO.


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[kunlun]

Originally Posted by DGB

Not sure from where the idea of machine finish came from.

Kinda seems like bigfatpauli might have been posting things he knew were wrong. From hand finishing to servicing, Patek has issues.

So, for people reading this who are new to haute horology, the amount of hand work involved is a big deal. It's hard to overstate that, even as modern machine techniques make it easier to do work that's almost, but not quite, as nice. It can seem like people are arguing over tiny distinctions (and they are!) but these things mean the difference between something done by hand versus just automated machine. The latter is cool, of course. Look at Rolex! But, if your reputation is built on one thing and you do it the cheap way now, then it's not so good *cough*Patek*cough*

Take anglage, which is the finish at the vertical ends of the mainplates. Look at the FPJ movement pictured a few posts up. The vertical ends of the plates have a mirror-like finish. You can only get that by hand.

What if you just use machine finishing, which is cheaper and, well, doesn't require that skill and art that ties the watch on our wrist to generations of master watchmakers of the past?

You get vertical striping on your anglage.

Like here. On a Patek Phillippe perpetual calendar. This is no entry level watch (and entry level FPJs all have the same excellent hand finishing that all their high complication models do). Anyway, Patek Phillippe now just churns out this stuff, look and you can see the same machine finishing that bigfatpauli had posted on another watch website:



Vintage Patek, when mostly you had a closed caseback, still had a lot of handwork, because they did it right. Now, they make 10X the watches.

For those of you who own a modern Patek, please don't be offended. They are still excellent, my point is just to look at things clearly. Still a lot to love.

[thakillak]

From a purely aesthetic standpoint, definitely the FPJ. Not the most beautiful of an option for the Patek. The simplicity of the FPJ is just classic.

[subtona]

Close decision between the two.
Prefer the look of the Patek.
Prefer the movment of the journe.

I own a journe chrono blue and a Patek PC.

If the Patek had a 240 movement I would chose that.

Most significant is the size difference between the two, the journe appearing much bigger because of the white dial.

[2Redbulls]

thank you to BigFatPauli for posting the detailed response.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate your comments and civility. I will level with you - sometimes, forums on the internet can be perhaps a bit slanted or biased to or away from certain brands and if a member goes against that grain they can be ostracised. I like this forum but I also realize I don't have the post count here that I have on another watch forum (tz) so I am new to this community. I don't want to jeopardise that as I know Journe is a well liked and respected brand here and they indeed make amazing watches. I am not saying that this community is like that (biased), I am saying that I am a newer member who does not have a good idea of the culture of Rolex Forums and as such I posted my last comment with great trepidation. It is also why my previous post was even more vague. Simply put, I don't want to step on any toes, offend anyone or stir the pot. Below are my own findings. Right or wrong, take them with a grain of salt: I am not a watch maker, I have never been to Journe nor have I met the man. I am just going by what I've heard or read. I can not vouch for the accuracy of any of it so take it for what it is worth.

So what happened?
...
There you have it; what happened.

Again, take it all with a grain of salt - I have no idea if anything that I found out about Journe is fact or fiction. Essentially, it is all hearsay. But it's all I have to go on. Please, I mean no offense to anyone with this post. I was asked about my findings so I posted them. I was hesitant in posting because it isn't necessarily the most favourable post about a beloved brand. If this offends anyone, I apologise, that was not my intent. It is just my meager findings and I hope it doesn't take anything away from any current or future Journe owners enjoyment of what, by all measures, makes wonderful watches that are supremely well finished and designed.

Warmest regards,

-Paul

great reply

as you point out, Having a local AD and service available is essential for many reasons (straps, buckles, trying on, service and a local relationship), i don't believe i could resolve this concern if i had to make the same choice.
reminds me of when i chose a motorcycle to travel across north america, many are capable but only two brands i know of have a comprehensive support system of dealers for the inevitable servicing needs of a long trip.

the comments re servicing issues you described regarding the Journe are very similar to those you might find with Patek, ie no one else should work on either of those watches than they themselves.

i have no particular issue with the construction of hands per se, i think journe is noted for his unconventional approach to challenges and this sounds more like that to me than ego or spite.

as far as cartier stepping in to help with your lange, you have identified an upside to big watch shop brands, however independents just won't have this opportunity, i wouldn't rule them out because of this.

of the 3 brands mentioned, patek, lange and journe, they each have some models that are appealing however none of them have more than a few models that make me look twice. (stratospheric options aside)

what i do like about journes designs is he maintains a respect for the thickness of the watch, this is something i am particularly appreciative of as many other manufacturers have an utter disregard for the daily routine of wearing sleeves.

ps. as far as journes arrogance, maybe hes just being french?

[mgraham]

Based on looks, I'd (quickly) select the Journe. I love Journe's signature hands and numerals. I find their watches to be quirky and interesting and appreciate the fact that non-WIS will not recognize the brand. I'll leave factors such as cost and value retention to you.

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[kneedeep]

FPJ based on looks between those 2.

[runner9]

Not a FPJ fan so I would go with Patek but that FPJ looks really good here.

[topcat30093]

I have bumped this thread, as I find myself in the same position.
I found the thread most interesting and in fact instead of helping me decide has made the decision more difficult.
I have owned both Marques.
The 5146J was my first Patek and one that I wished had kept. However the Fp Journe that I had - Calendrier, I regretted selling more or less straight away and always said that one day I would get a CS.

My heart says FP Journe
My Head says Patek Philippe.

My one concern with Journe, is who will continue you to service it after he has retired and will parts still be available?

We all know that with Patek that will not happen.

Have opinions changed?

[Jizzie001]

The Journe wins here

[Watcheroo]

Originally Posted by AK797

I prefer the Souverain here. If the Octa Calendrier is an option for an AC then I really like that Journe.

I would echo this

[subtona]

Both great watches.

If it is an everyday watch for me it has to be an automatic.
That leaves the Patek.

Ps I have a similar pair. Chrono bleu & Patek PC. The Patek gets more wrist time.