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jameskks · 30 July 2011, 03:32 PM

Read about the Rolex Subs 5513 model. Saw one with the explorer dial and with an underline at the bottom of the dial. Is this model rarer and costlier than the British Military model with the knife hands and minute markers around the bezel? Appreciate if anyone could share their knowledge. Thans a lot.

James

jedly1 · 30 July 2011, 05:27 PM

there are generally three different milsubs ...the ones with the sword hands ...all with massive swings of value to condition and model

there are 6/7 different 5513/2 369 dials (and many many more fakes).....all with just as big swings in value.....

VERY generally speaking a 5513 milsub is similar price to a 5513 369....realtive condition being equal........ for a mint 369 ( a hard thing to find) maybe even a bit more....more like cost of a double reference milsub or even 5517....

jameskks · 30 July 2011, 06:22 PM

Thanks a lot for the information. Got some good pictures of these 2 watches for my wallpaper. Cheers :)

Michael M. · 30 July 2011, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedly1

there are generally three different milsubs ...the ones with the sword hands ...all with massive swings of value to condition and model

there are 6/7 different 5513/2 369 dials (and many many more fakes).....all with just as big swings in value.....

VERY generally speaking a 5513 milsub is similar price to a 5513 369....realtive condition being equal........ for a mint 369 ( a hard thing to find) maybe even a bit more....more like cost of a double reference milsub or even 5517....

Great info Jedly, I've only seen a 369 5513 once in person, but I have seen a 6538/A Military watch, an amazing & rare watch!!!

rolexpawn · 31 July 2011, 02:40 AM

The definition of a "rare" 5513 dial could be debated among the WIS collectors. The reason is some dials are plentiful and others are rare.

Some of rare dials are gilt dials from the early 1960's, the 1970's Maxi MK III is the most rare among all of the Maxi dials, the spider web dials are rare among the WG dials of the 1980's.

Military 5513 dials would be considered the most rare and collectible. You have a lot of fake Rolex 5513 dials that claim to be rare which is junk. Orchi has some good articles on the Submariners of the 1960's-1980's that really help in identification of dials and how to pick out the fake from real.

A authentic Rolex dial is considered never to be touched after it left the factory, or it would be wordless to some collectors. Factory replacement dials are also not a collectible as they are not dial that came with the Submariner when it left the factory.

Some collectors consider a Submariner to be a frankenwatch if it has any change done to it other than the movement being serviced. Example of a frankenwatch would be considered a redial, relume, hand replacement, bracelet replacement unless it is the exact year and model. Another issue is the bezel insert, that is important to have all authentic. The case condition is also a major part of a collectors evaluation, if the case has been over polished the case is worthless to a collector.

eparisini · 1 August 2011, 08:37 PM

5513 3-6-9 is very rare, as rare are 5513 British Military, or 5513 with the valve (that my very best friend Marcello loves so much) so called 5514...

marcello pisani · 1 August 2011, 09:44 PM

well the rarest of ALL 5513 is certainly the "desert sub" .. aka the 5513 with case/back and metal strap with a teflon coat , made by Rolex ( 3-5 pieces ??? )
for the SAF special forces in the 70s.
( almost impossible to find : at least I had one in my hands in 2000 with a requested price roughly equals to 5 comex or 5 milsubs .. )
footnote : the watch has also a written confirmation from Rolex Geneva and also a strange dial with extremely small indexes ( coating and indexes made to
reduce sun reflections under african sun ).
the only watch I will ever regret ....

arttay10 · 1 August 2011, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

well the rarest of ALL 5513 is certainly the "desert sub" .. aka the 5513 with case/back and metal strap with a teflon coat , made by Rolex ( 3-5 pieces ??? )
for the SAF special forces in the 70s.
( almost impossible to find : at least I had one in my hands in 2000 with a requested price roughly equals to 5 comex or 5 milsubs .. )
footnote : the watch has also a written confirmation from Rolex Geneva and also a strange dial with extremely small indexes ( coating and indexes made to
reduce sun reflections under african sun ).
the only watch I will ever regret ....

Are there any pics of this little beauty Marcello

marcello pisani · 1 August 2011, 09:59 PM

just have one in my records , later I will post it !

arttay10 · 1 August 2011, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

just have one in my records , later I will post it !

I would love to see - thankyou

HL65 · 1 August 2011, 10:06 PM

Would love to see it as well Marcy!

Johny · 1 August 2011, 10:34 PM

i would also love to see it.

marcello pisani · 2 August 2011, 12:15 AM

the only picture I ahve found is this one ( taken from the web-site ) with a standard dial and without the metal strap :

the history :
the watch was presented in Italy during a watch-fair ( september 2000 ) near Florence.
as I got the watch in my hands after 5 seconds ( and without checking the fax from Rolex Geneva ).... I was 100 % sure that it was completely original.
case, back and metal strap were covered by teflon : the watch was very "cold" and viscous ( like a snake ) with a darkgrey-black shade ( something like RAL 7016 = charcoal grey ) but quite dull.
the fax from Rolex confirmed the production for a special mission of the South African special forces ( around middle of the 70s ).
the dial had indexes around 40 % smaller than regular ones with a dark brown colour after the exposure to the "heavy" sun of Africa.
the requested price was extremely high ( around 3-4 PN 6239 or 5 comex ), so nobody bought it and the dealer brought it back to Uk.
then it was put on their site where it remained for 15-18 months ....
and at last the baby found it's new home in a big UK collection ....and will never come out again...
a good end indeed as the original owner was a former SAS officer that after retiring went to SA to train the local "incursori" ( at least this is what they told us ).
so all I can do now is ......

HL65 · 2 August 2011, 12:29 AM

Amazing....Thanks for sharing! I guess there is a first for everything or almost everything except Fairy Tale prototypes!

adt · 2 August 2011, 12:31 AM

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=77204

marcello you're at the centre of this desert sub thing. one day you'll have to show us one of them (after buying it).

marcello pisani · 2 August 2011, 12:56 AM

the problem with MWR is that often people say something like :
< oh my , never seen .. therefore it doesn't exist ! >

at that fair the watch was carefully checked by many italian experts and collectors ... so the unanimous comment was :
< stunning .. but a little bit expensive ! > LLLOLLLLLLL

marcello pisani · 2 August 2011, 01:08 AM

as I have a very good "photographic" memory I even remember the shade of the indexes :
they had a sort of "burnt" colour , something like the RAL 8002 (= signal brown ) .

Jagatai · 2 August 2011, 01:12 AM

Thanks for sharing with us that very special 5513 Marcello!!!
I can pretend my 5513 is its cousin! HAHAHA

marcello pisani · 2 August 2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagatai

Thanks for sharing with us that very special 5513 Marcello!!!
I can pretend my 5513 is its cousin! HAHAHA

fantastic !!

Frogman4me · 2 August 2011, 01:59 AM

Awesome post Marcello! Thanks for sharing those facts :)

marcello pisani · 2 August 2011, 03:21 AM

my dear nephew "Lelefante" ( nickname we use in the family for "eparisini " )
going back to the original theme of the thread... the 5513 comex with valve is rarer than the comex 5514 !!
believe to my records !

eparisini · 2 August 2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

my dear nephew "Lelefante" ( nickname we use in the family for "eparisini " )
going back to the original theme of the thread... the 5513 comex with valve is rarer than the comex 5514 !!
believe to my records !

In my Uncle Marcello I Trust!!!

arttay10 · 2 August 2011, 04:36 AM

Thank you Marcello and thanks for the story behind it...

Michael M. · 2 August 2011, 11:35 PM

Very cool watch Marcello!

BNA/LION · 28 November 2011, 04:00 AM

Look what I found for sale...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-MILITA...item2eb899b7cb

BNA/LION · 28 November 2011, 04:17 AM

pic: ROLEX MILITARY SUBMARINER 5513 ISSUED WATCH PROVENANCE

matt4hand · 28 November 2011, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BNALION

pic: ROLEX MILITARY SUBMARINER 5513 ISSUED WATCH PROVENANCE

That watch has been discussed. The lug holes have been modified.

HERITAGE82 · 29 November 2011, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt4hand

That watch has been discussed. The lug holes have been modified.

Where is the modification???.....

It seems that someone tried to "push" the straight bars through the holes, but they do look like they belong to the watch...Sorry if this was discussed, but you can't learn if you dont ask.

Thanks

Beaumont Miller II · 28 November 2011, 06:10 AM

Marcello thanks for posting and educating us on such a rare watch.

marcello pisani · 29 November 2011, 06:27 AM

if you enlarge and look at the lugs .. you will see that thet bars are quite different from those fixed up by Rolex when the watch was modified for the UK MOD.

30 July 2011, 03:32 PM	#1
jameskks "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Singapore Posts: 2	Which 5513 is rarer? Read about the Rolex Subs 5513 model. Saw one with the explorer dial and with an underline at the bottom of the dial. Is this model rarer and costlier than the British Military model with the knife hands and minute markers around the bezel? Appreciate if anyone could share their knowledge. Thans a lot. James

1 August 2011, 10:06 PM	#11
HL65 TRF Moderator & 2024 DATE-JUST41 Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: Ken Location: SW Florida Watch: One on my wrist. Posts: 63,397	Would love to see it as well Marcy! __________________ *SPEM SUCCESSUS ALIT*

1 August 2011, 10:34 PM	#12
Johny "TRF" Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Real Name: john Location: Scotland Watch: sub 16610Lv Posts: 13,523	i would also love to see it. __________________ "AFTER DARK" BAR AND NIGHT CLUB GM.

2 August 2011, 12:29 AM	#14
HL65 TRF Moderator & 2024 DATE-JUST41 Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: Ken Location: SW Florida Watch: One on my wrist. Posts: 63,397	Amazing....Thanks for sharing! I guess there is a first for everything or almost everything except Fairy Tale prototypes! __________________ *SPEM SUCCESSUS ALIT*

2 August 2011, 12:31 AM	#15
adt "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Real Name: A Location: SEA Posts: 473	well i found this old thread http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=77204 marcello you're at the centre of this desert sub thing. one day you'll have to show us one of them (after buying it).

30 July 2011, 05:27 PM	#2
jedly1 "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: mel(oz)/Yorks(uk) Posts: 1,917	there are generally three different milsubs ...the ones with the sword hands ...all with massive swings of value to condition and model there are 6/7 different 5513/2 369 dials (and many many more fakes).....all with just as big swings in value..... VERY generally speaking a 5513 milsub is similar price to a 5513 369....realtive condition being equal........ for a mint 369 ( a hard thing to find) maybe even a bit more....more like cost of a double reference milsub or even 5517....

30 July 2011, 06:22 PM	#3
jameskks "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Singapore Posts: 2	Thanks a lot for the information. Got some good pictures of these 2 watches for my wallpaper. Cheers :)

31 July 2011, 02:40 AM	#5
rolexpawn Banned Join Date: Jun 2011 Real Name: Chester Location: Bolton UK Watch: my Rolex(s) Posts: 479	The definition of a "rare" 5513 dial could be debated among the WIS collectors. The reason is some dials are plentiful and others are rare. Some of rare dials are gilt dials from the early 1960's, the 1970's Maxi MK III is the most rare among all of the Maxi dials, the spider web dials are rare among the WG dials of the 1980's. Military 5513 dials would be considered the most rare and collectible. You have a lot of fake Rolex 5513 dials that claim to be rare which is junk. Orchi has some good articles on the Submariners of the 1960's-1980's that really help in identification of dials and how to pick out the fake from real. A authentic Rolex dial is considered never to be touched after it left the factory, or it would be wordless to some collectors. Factory replacement dials are also not a collectible as they are not dial that came with the Submariner when it left the factory. Some collectors consider a Submariner to be a frankenwatch if it has any change done to it other than the movement being serviced. Example of a frankenwatch would be considered a redial, relume, hand replacement, bracelet replacement unless it is the exact year and model. Another issue is the bezel insert, that is important to have all authentic. The case condition is also a major part of a collectors evaluation, if the case has been over polished the case is worthless to a collector.

1 August 2011, 09:44 PM	#7
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	well the rarest of ALL 5513 is certainly the "desert sub" .. aka the 5513 with case/back and metal strap with a teflon coat , made by Rolex ( 3-5 pieces ??? ) for the SAF special forces in the 70s. ( almost impossible to find : at least I had one in my hands in 2000 with a requested price roughly equals to 5 comex or 5 milsubs .. ) footnote : the watch has also a written confirmation from Rolex Geneva and also a strange dial with extremely small indexes ( coating and indexes made to reduce sun reflections under african sun ). the only watch I will ever regret ....

1 August 2011, 09:59 PM	#9
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	just have one in my records , later I will post it !

2 August 2011, 12:15 AM	#13
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	the only picture I ahve found is this one ( taken from the web-site ) with a standard dial and without the metal strap : the history : the watch was presented in Italy during a watch-fair ( september 2000 ) near Florence. as I got the watch in my hands after 5 seconds ( and without checking the fax from Rolex Geneva ).... I was 100 % sure that it was completely original. case, back and metal strap were covered by teflon : the watch was very "cold" and viscous ( like a snake ) with a darkgrey-black shade ( something like RAL 7016 = charcoal grey ) but quite dull. the fax from Rolex confirmed the production for a special mission of the South African special forces ( around middle of the 70s ). the dial had indexes around 40 % smaller than regular ones with a dark brown colour after the exposure to the "heavy" sun of Africa. the requested price was extremely high ( around 3-4 PN 6239 or 5 comex ), so nobody bought it and the dealer brought it back to Uk. then it was put on their site where it remained for 15-18 months .... and at last the baby found it's new home in a big UK collection ....and will never come out again... a good end indeed as the original owner was a former SAS officer that after retiring went to SA to train the local "incursori" ( at least this is what they told us ). so all I can do now is ......

2 August 2011, 12:56 AM	#16
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	the problem with MWR is that often people say something like : < oh my , never seen .. therefore it doesn't exist ! > at that fair the watch was carefully checked by many italian experts and collectors ... so the unanimous comment was : < stunning .. but a little bit expensive ! > LLLOLLLLLLL

2 August 2011, 01:08 AM	#17
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	as I have a very good "photographic" memory I even remember the shade of the indexes : they had a sort of "burnt" colour , something like the RAL 8002 (= signal brown ) .

2 August 2011, 01:12 AM	#18
Jagatai "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Real Name: Philip Location: NY Posts: 851	Thanks for sharing with us that very special 5513 Marcello!!! I can pretend my 5513 is its cousin! HAHAHA

2 August 2011, 01:59 AM	#20
Frogman4me Banned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 6,268	Awesome post Marcello! Thanks for sharing those facts :)

2 August 2011, 03:21 AM	#21
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	my dear nephew "Lelefante" ( nickname we use in the family for "eparisini " ) going back to the original theme of the thread... the 5513 comex with valve is rarer than the comex 5514 !! believe to my records !

2 August 2011, 04:36 AM	#23
arttay10 "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancashire, UK Watch: ???????? Posts: 2,187	Thank you Marcello and thanks for the story behind it...

2 August 2011, 11:35 PM	#24
Michael M. Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 8,391	Very cool watch Marcello!

28 November 2011, 04:00 AM	#25
BNA/LION 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member Join Date: May 2011 Real Name: Larry Location: San Diego, CA Watch: ROLEX Posts: 25,195	Look what I found for sale... http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-MILITA...item2eb899b7cb __________________ ✦ 28238 President DD 18K/YG ✦ 16610LN SS Sub ✦ 16613 18K/SS Serti ✦ 16550 Exp II Non-Rail Cream Dial ✦ Daytona C 116500 ✦ 126710 BLRO GMT-Master II ✦ NEXT-->? ⛳ Hole In One! 10/3/19 DMCC 5th hole, par 3, 168 yards w/ 4-Iron.

28 November 2011, 06:10 AM	#29
Beaumont Miller II "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,615	Marcello thanks for posting and educating us on such a rare watch. __________________

29 November 2011, 06:27 AM	#30
marcello pisani "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: italy Posts: 991	if you enlarge and look at the lugs .. you will see that thet bars are quite different from those fixed up by Rolex when the watch was modified for the UK MOD.

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