PGA Tour vs LIV Traitors

[HHIslander]

Reminds me of the USFL. It will likely end up the same if there is a profit requirement for LIV which I am not sure there is. I’m def in the traitors camp, this isn’t good for golf.

[asloper6001]

It's just messy now and will only get worse. Jay just needed to tweak a few things and could have avoided all this probably. Greed on both sides and now only lawyers will win while the game gets destroyed. It's kind of like F1 for me now though, I just watch the racing and stay out of all the bs.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

Fair position and comments. But revolutionize golf? Whats wrong with it? It’s nearly 200 years old and all they’re doing is buying press and validation from some ‘players’ who are nothing more than checkers pieces in a chess game. They have no idea what they ventured into and Greg Norman is a driftnet fisherman claiming to be a preservationist. Bollocks!

And large stake is not the same as total sovereign ownership bottomless funds. This makes the Intl Olympic Committee or FIFA look like the Red Cross.

I don't have a stake in the PGA or LIV, I'm just a fan. Both the LIV and PGA are business ventures. This isn't about tradition, it's about cash and control.

The PGA televised format is becoming unwatchable. There have been final rounds that couldn't finish in daylight. Multiple groupings stacked up on a tee waiting for the slow play ahead. Commentators blathering on while some duffer takes 5 minutes to make a 15 second decision. I've stopped watching most weekends anymore.

The LIV matches are faster paced. Something is always going on. The format is better for TV. All the LIV needs to succeed is for the talent to stay there long enough for it to catch on. The PGA won't be able to keep up.

[77T]

Originally Posted by brandrea

That’s an interesting take Paul.

Wouldn’t LIV have to become a member of the International Federation of PGA Tours so that their members get world ranking points, or a by de-coupling are you suggesting each tournament would come up with their own criteria?

It’s just my own opinion on where this goes regarding PGA. I don’t have a dog in the upcoming fight. The players have hit upon several alleged predatory acts to restrain participants. It smacks of a hidden contractual “reserve clause” whereby PGA members can’t enter other golf tourneys.




If the LIV mantra is to revolutionize golf, they’ll need to break up the monopoly they claim exists. This will be a long haul reminiscent of NFL, IBF and other antitrust actions.

Only MLB has prevailed at the Supreme Court.

That’s where I sense this goes - but PGA may want to settle this quickly. The LIV backing has $Billions more in cash to litigate.


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[Eagle dunes 75]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

And here i thought they all golfed for the love of the sport. <sarc>

Golf is not a verb

[Ellz]

I agree too Chewy- LIV and their cool guy, party, loud mouth, hipster, have fun, get crazy vibe will be forgotten in 2-3 years

[maylebox]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

If the three players earned enough points to be in, they should be in.
Then next year, if they want to rewrite the FedEx Cup's participation rules, they can do it beforehand. I'm no big fan of LIV, but I'm even less of a fan of changing the rules after the fact.

Exactly my thoughts as well

[AzPaul]

Originally Posted by Eagle dunes 75

Golf is not a verb

Used to say the same thing about 'party'.

[knyshcollection]

People always going to chase the money, not surprised

[904VT]

If I was a professional I would stick with the PGA Tour for the reason of guaranteed opportunities to qualify for the Majors.

But how is this any different than Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf events held back in the day or the more recent “The Match” series.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by 904VT

If I was a professional I would stick with the PGA Tour for the reason of guaranteed opportunities to qualify for the Majors.

But how is this any different than Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf events held back in the day or the more recent “The Match” series.

The Masters, US Open, and Open Championship are by invitation from the tournament. The PGA has influence, but my guess is the tournament organizers will follow the TV money, and the TV money will follow the famous names.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by binArt

The Masters, US Open, and Open Championship are by invitation from the tournament. The PGA has influence, but my guess is the tournament organizers will follow the TV money, and the TV money will follow the famous names.

Good input. Too bad the PGA didn’t up purses before the moves started happening and maybe this would’ve been avoided to some degree. The FedEx cup is meaninglessness and boring to me and the moving of the PGA Championship was not ideal. They did so to spotlight the FedEx cup towards late Summer but the PGA Championship was always a great Summer tradition during a time when not much else was on tap for major sporting events outside of Olympic years. PGA should get rid of the FedEx cup and instead increase the purses of the weekly events. The whole system with the points and playoffs imo is worse than NCAA Football moving to the 4 team playoff system. The BCS at least made every game count. The FedEx cup really means nothing outside of a bigger purse. No prestige etc. I know the PGA Tour doesn’t run the PGA Championship but somehow making that a joint PGA/PGA Tour run event and taking the purse from the FedEx and applying towards a late August PGA Championship would’ve done wonders to increase prestige of golf’s least prestigious major. Then add more purse to bigger events such as TPC, Memorial, Bayhill, perhaps making a Pebble Beach event closer to scale of TPC too would’ve helped. I feel like Jay had to have heard the rumblings. So why he didn’t proactively speak with the players and see what they desired most (shorter schedule, larger purses) seems like a failure.

[binArt]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Good input. Too bad the PGA didn’t up purses before the moves started happening and maybe this would’ve been avoided to some degree. The FedEx cup is meaninglessness and boring to me and the moving of the PGA Championship was not ideal. They did so to spotlight the FedEx cup towards late Summer but the PGA Championship was always a great Summer tradition during a time when not much else was on tap for major sporting events outside of Olympic years. PGA should get rid of the FedEx cup and instead increase the purses of the weekly events. The whole system with the points and playoffs imo is worse than NCAA Football moving to the 4 team playoff system. The BCS at least made every game count. The FedEx cup really means nothing outside of a bigger purse. No prestige etc. I know the PGA Tour doesn’t run the PGA Championship but somehow making that a joint PGA/PGA Tour run event and taking the purse from the FedEx and applying towards a late August PGA Championship would’ve done wonders to increase prestige of golf’s least prestigious major. Then add more purse to bigger events such as TPC, Memorial, Bayhill, perhaps making a Pebble Beach event closer to scale of TPC too would’ve helped. I feel like Jay had to have heard the rumblings. So why he didn’t proactively speak with the players and see what they desired most (shorter schedule, larger purses) seems like a failure.

I agree. I don't think the PGA has managed this very well. Modern professional athletes are looking for longer careers and shorter, more lucrative seasons. The PGA should have seen this coming and adapted to the trend. Instead, they lengthened the season without increasing the payout.

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by 904VT

If I was a professional I would stick with the PGA Tour for the reason of guaranteed opportunities to qualify for the Majors.

But how is this any different than Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf events held back in the day or the more recent “The Match” series.

I think it all depends on what type of professional. If you’re a bubble guy always having to grind it out to just keep your card, liv is very attractive. If you’re a top 50 guy with multiple wins, tough for sure. I asked a couple of the d1 college kids i play with if they would go to liv, they said yes immediately. It’s so hard out there, getting to play professional golf for insane amounts of money is hard to beat.

I think the pga tour is in serious trouble and people don’t seem to see the big picture. If liv expands the team and starts grabbing young guys from college, it’s going to be a big issue.

Liv already has like 25 guys in the top 100, if they get cam smith and a few more top guys, it’s going to get very interesting. The majors are really the pga tours only chance to salvage their tour IMO. Liv could get 50 of the top 100 in the next few years if they expand their roster, at that point it’s over.

If i were Greg Norman, i would sign a TV deal for as little money as possible to attempt to get picked up by a large network. Almost like a loss leader for a large retailer. I would think 6-8 years out, give away the tv rights and try to suffocate the PGA tour with money.

I see major championships looking very different if LIV keeps pushing forward. Winning the masters with 40 of the top 100 would be very different than all of of the worlds top 100 playing.


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[OYptL]

As much as I now detest The GC, they will be covering the emergency court filing at 1600 EST for those interested.

[TswaneNguni]

Handbag swinging in the golf world ...Who gets the Louis Vuitton ?

[904VT]

Originally Posted by OYptL

As much as I now detest The GC, they will be covering the emergency court filing at 1600 EST for those interested.

Thanks for the heads up.

[OYptL]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Thanks for the heads up.

My pleasure.

[SpectralDodo49]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Back then the big money was with the dominant owners until some new money upstarts disrupted the apple cart by throwing a million dollar contracts to people that previous made a quarter of that. Same thing, different dollars amounts. Bobby Hull was paid $90,000 a year by the Black Hawks and Winnipeg Jets offered $250,000 a year for 5 years and a one million dollar signing bonus. That send shockwaves through the NHL old money boys club.

The thing is that oil money is so pervasive. Look at the major bands and singers who will go over there to do some corporate gig, or wedding and make millions for doing 10 songs.

I point out a couple things: Saudi Arabia was largely responsible for 9/11. The classified report stating this was withheld by the previous president, but the current president released it to 9/11 families.
The Saudi government assassinated Jamal Khashoggi, a US person (under law) and journalist for WaPo.
Finally, it is hard for many Westerners to understand that Saudi is an Islamic state. Their goal is to replace all other religions with Islam. Saudi is currently using its billions to engage in a charm offensive to win over the West.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by SpectralDodo49

I point out a couple things: Saudi Arabia was largely responsible for 9/11. The classified report stating this was withheld by the previous president, but the current president released it to 9/11 families.
The Saudi government assassinated Jamal Khashoggi, a US person (under law) and journalist for WaPo.
Finally, it is hard for many Westerners to understand that Saudi is an Islamic state. Their goal is to replace all other religions with Islam. Saudi is currently using its billions to engage in a charm offensive to win over the West.

Did you know that there are/were multiple competing factions that aligned with different leaders globally in an effort to get support for the throne over the last 20+ years? Remember the guy that used to own majority of Twitter shares? Khashoggi, had unbelievable access to Bin Laden for some reason and considered him a good friend and mourned his death. Did Khashoggi have prior knowledge of the 9/11 plans? His father had some very iffy connections in the weapons dealing world years prior and roles within the government of SA. I think it is a lot more complex than to say one bad one good vs everyone fighting for control. Khashoggi lead multiple lives with multiple wives that were unaware of each other. I'm not an expert, but I think there is more to this story.

While I do support the PGA Tour and think it's best for golf, we should give the current regime some credit for expanding women's sports within the country. Something the prior, had zero interest in working on improving.

[OYptL]

NBC and every puppet it writes a check to has become unwatchable imo. I will watch the guys in Germantown this week but the TV will be muted. Hate the fact that my viewership will be a click in their favor but I love watching good Golf. The same applies to the 48 who are viewed on YouTube with the exception being my volume will be unmuted.

[SpectralDodo49]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Did you know that there are/were multiple competing factions that aligned with different leaders globally in an effort to get support for the throne over the last 20+ years? Remember the guy that used to own majority of Twitter shares? Khashoggi, had unbelievable access to Bin Laden for some reason and considered him a good friend and mourned his death. Did Khashoggi have prior knowledge of the 9/11 plans? His father had some very iffy connections in the weapons dealing world years prior and roles within the government of SA. I think it is a lot more complex than to say one bad one good vs everyone fighting for control. Khashoggi lead multiple lives with multiple wives that were unaware of each other. I'm not an expert, but I think there is more to this story.

While I do support the PGA Tour and think it's best for golf, we should give the current regime some credit for expanding women's sports within the country. Something the prior, had zero interest in working on improving.

Everything in my post is a fact. Saudi Arabia has tried to smear Khashoggi with false info as if that would justify his grisly execution. Oh, were the thousands of people murdered in 9/11 also deserving of death? Yeah, I'll pass on anything related to that murderous regime.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by SpectralDodo49

Everything in my post is a fact. Saudi Arabia has tried to smear Khashoggi with false info as if that would justify his grisly execution. Oh, were the thousands of people murdered in 9/11 also deserving of death? Yeah, I'll pass on anything related to that murderous regime.

Yes, you are right about everything. That said Khashoggi was friends with Bin Laden and close with Al Waleed. Infighting within clans. Perhaps even could’ve prevented. Lots of power struggles. I wonder if Khashoggi could’ve even used his relationship for good and to help locate Bin Laden sooner, perhaps even after the USS Cole and prior to 9/11. He was probably the one person that could’ve help prevent. Also, not that it makes a difference here but Jamal was a US resident, not a US citizen for clarity. The ambiguity and portrayal of being a citizen helped drive outrage in some cases. Regardless no justification, what is meant is perhaps more here to unravel than expected. Lots of fighting for power among factions is the likely cause. Money and power will do that.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ried-died.html

[binArt]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Yes, you are right about everything. That said Khashoggi was friends with Bin Laden and close with Al Waleed. Infighting within clans. Perhaps even could’ve prevented. Lots of power struggles. I wonder if Khashoggi could’ve even used his relationship for good and to help locate Bin Laden sooner, perhaps even after the USS Cole and prior to 9/11. He was probably the one person that could’ve help prevent. Also, not that it makes a difference here but Jamal was a US resident, not a US citizen for clarity. The ambiguity and portrayal of being a citizen helped drive outrage in some cases. Regardless no justification, what is meant is perhaps more here to unravel than expected. Lots of fighting for power among factions is the likely cause. Money and power will do that.

You are correct. People commonly mistake the Kingdom as a monolithic society with a common trajectory. In reality, it has been a loose collection of clans for thousands of years and continues to be so to this day. Petroleum has been the glue that binds the clans together in peace and prosperity in modern times. Petroleum keeps hearts calm in Mekka and Medina, and petroleum keeps the northern clans tied to the monarchy. Without petroleum revenue the country would disintegrate.

[OYptL]

Put a nail in the LIV coffin. They may very well finish the remaining of this yrs schedule but 2023’s? Not likely imo. That said, C’mon Rickie ( globally loved) and put 4 good rounds together. Fairways and Greens bro. Fairway’s and Greens.

[Wcdhtwn]

IMO the PGA is handling this terribly. Like a bunch of spoiled country club brats. I think they are going to regret what they are doing by banning LIV players. Their anti-competitive behavior, and tantrums that they actually have competition now, is not keeping players from joining LIV. Seems like it’s pushing them towards LIV if anything.

People complaining about white washing Saudi crimes, legitimizing them, etc. Biden’s visit to Saudi last month did more to legitimize their government and its leaders than a few rounds of golf ever will. No that’s not an invitation for a bunch of “but Trump…” nonsense. I’d say the same thing if T made that trip in light of this golfing world hissy fit.

[OYptL]

Originally Posted by Wcdhtwn

IMO the PGA is handling this terribly. Like a bunch of spoiled country club brats. I think they are going to regret what they are doing by banning LIV players. Their anti-competitive behavior, and tantrums that they actually have competition now, is not keeping players from joining LIV. Seems like it’s pushing them towards LIV if anything.

People complaining about white washing Saudi crimes, legitimizing them, etc. Biden’s visit to Saudi last month did more to legitimize their government and its leaders than a few rounds of golf ever will. No that’s not an invitation for a bunch of “but Trump…” nonsense. I’d say the same thing if T made that trip in light of this golfing world hissy fit.

I happen to agree with you but her honors decision today has to have taken the wind out of Greg and his 48.

[austinp]

Cam Smith making the move may breath some life into it tho.


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[Wcdhtwn]

Originally Posted by OYptL

I happen to agree with you but her honors decision today has to have taken the wind out of Greg and his 48.

I didn’t see the decision, and maybe the LIV players lose in court. But again I think that hurts the PGA in the long term. Independent contractors don’t want to be treated the way the PGA is treating them now. More will leave to LIV.

It’s really stupid, there’s plenty of room, tourneys, money, etc. for both tours/leagues to thrive and share players.

[OYptL]

Originally Posted by austinp

Cam Smith making the move may breath some life into it tho.


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I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say he does a 180 and doesn’t sign. It’s my guess that if he had signed the Tour would know about it and he would not be playing this week and the Prez Cup. He may have verbally committed but that’s not the same as Pen n paper. Just my take.