All blue GMT fake

[TheDude]

Let us not forget that the rich Arab market (royalty, etc...) routinely gets custom items from basically any manufacturer as a matter of regular business. Cars, watches, jewelry, you name it.

Depending on how pedantic you get with the letter, I’d say that it doesn’t rule out this kind of thing.

Also, I would not expect Rolex to divulge anything regarding the origins of a piece tied to a royal family or government to a new owner...




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[zapokee]

The title of the post is misleading.

Nowhere does the letter state that these all-blue inserts are fake. It just says GMTs were never produced with them, which ties in with the common notion that they are service parts.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but this letter doesn't stand up as conclusive evidence for the OP's assertion.

As you were.

[xelor63]

Originally Posted by zapokee

The title of the post is misleading.



Nowhere does the letter state that these all-blue inserts are fake. It just says GMTs were never produced with them, which ties in with the common notion that they are service parts.



I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but this letter doesn't stand up as conclusive evidence for the OP's assertion.



As you were.

Why make an all blue service insert if the 70’s 1675 should have a blro or a ln insert?

XELOR


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[zapokee]

Originally Posted by xelor63

Why make an all blue service insert if the 70’s 1675 should have a blro or a ln insert?

Rolex did all sorts of stuff at service in the 70s. They'd send your Red Sub back after service with an all-white dial. They'd send your Datejust back with leaf hands changed to straight hands. They'd send your gilt dial back with a non-gilt. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'd send your GMT back with a blue insert.

I don't even like these blue inserts. I don't have one. I don't plan to buy one. I'm just saying I haven't seen any evidence that proves they're not genuine *service* parts (as opposed to being originally provided on a new watch).

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by joli160

The whole Blueberry myth is something you have no choice but to believe if you invested a lot of money in it

I couldn't have put it any better.

[xelor63]

Originally Posted by zapokee

Rolex did all sorts of stuff at service in the 70s. They'd send your Red Sub back after service with an all-white dial. They'd send your Datejust back with different hands. They'd send your gilt dial back with a non-gilt. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'd send your GMT back with a blue insert.

I don't even like these blue inserts - I'm just saying that I haven't see any evidence that even suggests they're not genuine service parts.

If that’s the case why the blue insert never showed up in Rolex Parts catalogue?

XELOR


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[77T]

I doubt very much that Rolex ordered their fabrication contractor to produce solid blue GMT inserts for general production purposes. And my opinion extends to the concept of a service insert - no need for stocking blue inserts if they were never in general release.

Had either of those moves occurred in real life (vs. mythology) then we would have seen many more properly documented contemporaneous 1675 Blueberries in the wild.

I suppose it is possible the fabrication contractor could have produced blue inserts for Rolex to use for a prototype release or special client request.

But if that was true, then a supposedly original Blueberry could be presented to the RSC and they would service it without exception (because the s/n’s build data would reflect such a thing).

Short of a set of RSC service papers with a description such as LB or Blue insert as evidence, anyone paying the uplifted price for a Blueberry is likely wasting money.


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[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by zapokee

The title of the post is misleading.

Nowhere does the letter state that these all-blue inserts are fake. It just says GMTs were never produced with them, which ties in with the common notion that they are service parts.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but this letter doesn't stand up as conclusive evidence for the OP's assertion.

As you were.

To endorse your post, I would suggest that perhaps out of the many, many Blue inserts that we constantly see and hear about, and the fact that every body who has had an insert replaced at a Rolex service must be in receipt of a service document; one of those brave souls will post it on this forum? There can't be any further dispute if somebody has a service document stating that the insert has been replaced with a NEW BLUE one. Or am I just succumbing to wishful thinking.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by xelor63

If that’s the case why the blue insert never showed up in Rolex Parts catalogue?

I get where you're coming from, but an absence of evidence can't be used to prove a truth. I don't know, and I don't insist.

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

To endorse your post, I would suggest that perhaps out of the many, many Blue inserts that we constantly see and hear about, and the fact that every body who has had an insert replaced at a Rolex service must be in receipt of a service document; one of those brave souls will post it on this forum? There can't be any further dispute if somebody has a service document stating that the insert has been replaced with a NEW BLUE one. Or am I just succumbing to wishful thinking.

I was always under the impression that these were commissioned for Arab nations - air forces, etc... The dial on the pictured watch certainly places this example in that region (UAE). It’s also very interesting to note that there are quite a number of UAE 1675 examples with blueberry inserts. That’s a strange thing to just happen collectively with all the owners.

I would expect Rolex to be silent regarding this and unless you were the original buyer (said prince/government) they’d probably send a letter like this one.

Also, if the origin is in fact a special commission for UAE, it would suggest that perhaps the examples without UAE crests are the ones that are suspect (unless they received sterile service replacement dials).


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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by zapokee

I get where you're coming from, but an absence of evidence can't be used to prove a truth. I don't know, and I don't insist.

At this point, I think that the burden of proof is actually on the other side of the equation. If these pieces were legit/original, people would have come forward with documentation by now. The absence of evidence for these valuable watches is telling.

If people like the look, and want to pay $15k for a service insert, that's totally fine. And obviously I don't blame dealers for selling desirable watches. But with all that is known about this reference, it's simply not credible to continue to insist that watches were originally produced this way. And IMO unsupported stories about Arab military-issued watches are just that ... stories. I would say that people should produce some evidence or stop telling the stories.

[SPARTAN2161]

Originally Posted by Dan S

At this point, I think that the burden of proof is actually on the other side of the equation. If these pieces were legit/original, people would have come forward with documentation by now. The absence of evidence for these valuable watches is telling.

If people like the look, and want to pay $15k for a service insert, that's totally fine. And obviously I don't blame dealers for selling desirable watches. But with all that is known about this reference, it's simply not credible to continue to insist that watches were originally produced this way. And IMO unsupported stories about Arab military-issued watches are just that ... stories. I would say that people should produce some evidence or stop telling the stories.

This exactly. If this were a Rolex service part, it’s likely a letter like this would not exist. Has there been an example of any other service part receiving this sort of letter?

As mentioned, the burden falls on proving them original.

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by Dan S

At this point, I think that the burden of proof is actually on the other side of the equation. If these pieces were legit/original, people would have come forward with documentation by now. The absence of evidence for these valuable watches is telling.

If people like the look, and want to pay $15k for a service insert, that's totally fine. And obviously I don't blame dealers for selling desirable watches. But with all that is known about this reference, it's simply not credible to continue to insist that watches were originally produced this way. And IMO unsupported stories about Arab military-issued watches are just that ... stories. I would say that people should produce some evidence or stop telling the stories.

Well said.

[DaytonaSubmariner]

Originally Posted by Dan S

At this point, I think that the burden of proof is actually on the other side of the equation. If these pieces were legit/original, people would have come forward with documentation by now. The absence of evidence for these valuable watches is telling.

If people like the look, and want to pay $15k for a service insert, that's totally fine. And obviously I don't blame dealers for selling desirable watches. But with all that is known about this reference, it's simply not credible to continue to insist that watches were originally produced this way. And IMO unsupported stories about Arab military-issued watches are just that ... stories. I would say that people should produce some evidence or stop telling the stories.

+1

Where is the proof that these things even existed prior to a few years ago? Why all of a sudden are these watches popping up?

If they would have been available, we would have seen them and known about this for a long time already. The fact that there is no history with these watches and inserts gives me great caution.

To the OP's letter. The reason Rolex stated that "To the best of our knowledge" it seems that photos were sent into them for authentication. Send the watch in with the insert to get a 100% no, it's not authentic or no, it's only a service insert.

There are dealers out there, that have plenty of cash, to send one to Rolex for authentication. Do it already.

[lee fowler]

Originally Posted by 77T

I doubt very much that Rolex ordered their fabrication contractor to produce solid blue GMT inserts for general production purposes. And my opinion extends to the concept of a service insert - no need for stocking blue inserts if they were never in general release.

Had either of those moves occurred in real life (vs. mythology) then we would have seen many more properly documented contemporaneous 1675 Blueberries in the wild.

I suppose it is possible the fabrication contractor could have produced blue inserts for Rolex to use for a prototype release or special client request.

But if that was true, then a supposedly original Blueberry could be presented to the RSC and they would service it without exception (because the s/n’s build data would reflect such a thing).

Short of a set of RSC service papers with a description such as LB or Blue insert as evidence, anyone paying the uplifted price for a Blueberry is likely wasting money.


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Niklas Rix had service papers for a 1675 he sold with a Blue insert fitted which mentioned the Blue insert on the papers.

[77T]

Originally Posted by lee fowler

Niklas Rix had service papers for a 1675 he sold with a Blue insert fitted which mentioned the Blue insert on the papers.

Lee - were those RSC papers?

I’ll bet the next post after your answer (if that answer is yes) will likely say RSC papers are easier to fake than warranty paperwork.


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[roh123]

I think some people are over thinking this. Rolex don’t give a shit about vintage and they do not have a clue. At least not everyone working for Rolex. Just look at their 6241 post on IG. That watch is all wrong and still they market it. I wouldn’t put too much value what customer service, PR and marketing people say about nerdy details on 40-50 year old watches.

These are just as questionable today as they were ten years ago. Some like them, some don’t...

[crazymcmichael]

Wow..

[lee fowler]

Originally Posted by 77T

Lee - were those RSC papers?

I’ll bet the next post after your answer (if that answer is yes) will likely say RSC papers are easier to fake than warranty paperwork.


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Yes they were RSC papers/letter and it is Arthur Bonds watch.

[1watch]

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but did a quick search and found this example among many sold by said dealer with a solid rep. All are missing a specific UAE insignia and this one has papers, so was the insert legit or not and the service center had no comment, who knows? Personally put this in the 16520 Patrizzi dial bucket and wouldn’t pay a premium as a collector for either model.
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...nd-papers-7781

[roh123]

Originally Posted by lee fowler

Yes they were RSC papers/letter and it is Arthur Bonds watch.

Doesn’t really mean anything either. Concensus is pretty clear that the UAE watches originally came with pepsis. Service people just fills out the forms.

[exador]

Originally Posted by 1watch

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but did a quick search and found this example among many sold by said dealer with a solid rep. All are missing a specific UAE insignia and this one has papers, so was the insert legit or not and the service center had no comment, who knows? Personally put this in the 16520 Patrizzi dial bucket and wouldn’t pay a premium as a collector for either model.
https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/...nd-papers-7781

“The watch comes with an excellent condition blueberry bezel insert”.

I.e. it was not original to the watch...

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by exador

“The watch comes with an excellent condition blueberry bezel insert”.

I.e. it was not original to the watch...

My understanding too.

[1watch]

Throw in the mysterious all red GMT hand to the bucket of things I’m not interested in paying a premium for as well...

[lee fowler]

Originally Posted by 1watch

Throw in the mysterious all red GMT hand to the bucket of things I’m not interested in paying a premium for as well...

I think there are Blue ones of those as well!!

[BigBlue1]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Let us not forget that the rich Arab market (royalty, etc...) routinely gets custom items from basically any manufacturer as a matter of regular business. Cars, watches, jewelry, you name it.

Depending on how pedantic you get with the letter, I’d say that it doesn’t rule out this kind of thing.

Also, I would not expect Rolex to divulge anything regarding the origins of a piece tied to a royal family or government to a new owner...




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I would think they would still be able to disclose the fact that if it was made by them, they could at least let it be know that in fact it was made or commissioned by them. Why act like something doesn't exist. Doesn't really make any sense from a business perspective. Why lie to Millions of fans, customers and enthusiasts abroad? Is this a good business approach. I wouldn't buy this for a second. Just my opinion. With as much information and fan base as Rolex has you would think that if the answer was out there as far as it being made or commissioned by Rolex we would of heard all about it by now.

[suligeo]

Show us Lee

[suligeo]

Originally Posted by xelor63

I know, but the 1675LB you will not find in any Rolex insert database!


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What means LB? Please tell us more about the missing Inlays.

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by BigBlue1

I would think they would still be able to disclose the fact that if it was made by them, they could at least let it be know that in fact it was made or commissioned by them. Why act like something doesn't exist. Doesn't really make any sense from a business perspective. Why lie to Millions of fans, customers and enthusiasts abroad? Is this a good business approach. I wouldn't buy this for a second. Just my opinion. With as much information and fan base as Rolex has you would think that if the answer was out there as far as it being made or commissioned by Rolex we would of heard all about it by now.

Rolex chooses to be silent about a lot of things so as much as your logic seems sound, it’s not unassailable.


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[Rolexator]

It seems that the Instagram post about the Blueberry-inserts is gone. Maybe the owner of the letter or Rolex themselves didn't want it to be posted?