My Tudor 7928 Sub Saga **Billjetpilot**

[Nicko]

OK, I have decided it’s time to post the saga of my Tudor Sub which I purchased from (a forum member, but bought on eBay) here for all to see and to make those aware of just what you should be aware of when you buy vintage or anything for that matter. I purchased my 7928 back in Dec. and for those who forgot I had a hell of a time (long wait) during shipping. Anyway, fast-forward a couple of months and one morning while I was winding my baby the winding stem broke, I almost passed out. Oh well, off to Rolex, I figured they would be able to take care of it. I get the watch back 2 weeks later with a letter telling me that they are unable to repair the watch due to exhausted stocks. I searched and finally found a watchmaker nearby who was willing to repair my watch; he has been in business and repairing watches including Rolex since 1973.

I received a call the other day from the watchmaker and he told me that the watch most likely hadn’t ever seen a service and if it did then it was ages ago!! He told me the movement was oxidized and dry as a bone and full of shavings from worn parts which was one of the reasons the stem broke while I was winding it.

OK, here’s where it gets good, so stay with me. I filed a PayPal dispute for the repair cost , since it was so long since I purchased the watch I needed to file so that I didn’t get stiffed. I also contacted the seller because when the watch was sold to me, it was sold under the pretense that it was serviced recently and as a matter of fact when he sent the watch to his watchmaker to have the case back and dial installed he claimed the watchmaker said the watch was great and had no problems.

Paypal closes the dispute without even asking me any questions based on the following posted by the seller:

The buyer received the watch on the 27th of January and sent payment on the 29th of January. Seven days later, on the February 3rd the buyer left positive feedback on the transaction (eBay item number XXXXXXXXXXXXXX) indicating that he was very satisfied. Now on February 25, twenty-nine days after receiving the watch, the buyer claims the watch is not as described.This vintage watch was accurately described as an authentic 1964 vintage Tudor Submariner. It was sold "as-is" with no warranty. I did offer a 3 day money back guarantee if the watch was found to be significantly different than as described. The buyer could have returned the watch within that 3 day time frame, but chose not to because it matched the description as listed on eBay. He was happy with the transaction and left positive feedback. Now, almost a month later, he has broken his watch and expects me to pay for the repair and a full restoration of the 46 year old watch. Again, this vintage watch was sold "as-is" and without a warranty. I am sorry that the buyer has broken his watch, but I can not be held liable for this unfortunate event.

Now he won’t answer any emails.

My watchmaker has taken photos and will be posting them on his website as an example of what happens when you do not properly care for your watch and have it serviced regularly. He will also be taking after shots to post as well. I will be posting the photos as soon at they are sent to me or posted on his site.

I would have NEVER bought this watch had I know it was never serviced. I think the seller knew it was a lemon and needed to pawn it off on someone else. So, let this be a lesson to all of you who go looking for deals on the internet, sometimes they are not as good as they seem. I paid $2,500 for the watch, another $500 for a vintage rivet bracelet and now I have to pay for the service to get the watch fixed, cleaned and pressure tested. My watchmaker said he will have to make some of the parts that have worn. I could get a list of parts and try to find them and get them to him but I am just going to let him fix it. I am sick and upset at the entire situation and just had to vent. I have had the watch on my wrist about a half dozen times since I received it and now it will be in service another month!

[snow_rocks]

Steve, that sucks.

A 3 day, or 7 day return policy might sound good, but who can get a good examination in such a short time.

I might suggest to others who buy off of Ebay, to contact the seller and request that the watch be sent straight away to a RSC for an evaluation, and the expense (~150.00USD) would be the buyers, if the buyer were the winning bidder. This would definitely help in a PAYPAL dispute if the watch is a fake, or worst - STOLEN!

Steve, I hope the expense of rejuvenating your Tudor is minimal, past the normal service costs!

[DARK_KNIGHT]

PM Name of the seller which is a member here, so I can have the chance not to buy from him or her.

[Safetrends]

Steve, if the other TRF member who sold you the watch, see's this, and the phtotos of the repairs, maybe they will pay for the repairs to make it right.

That is the least they can do to make it right.



And also keep the other TRF members from throwing him/her under the bus.

[Nicko]

I will post the name at a later date, he is not very active here. Im on my mobile now but will update later.

[Ashley]

Steve, I'm really sorry to hear this. I hope it gets resolved quickly and cheaply.
To be honest, before reading this, I wouldn't really think about getting a watch serviced. That said, I know nothing about watches.

[mrh1797]

Originally Posted by Ashley

Steve, I'm really sorry to hear this. I hope it gets resolved quickly and cheaply.
To be honest, before reading this, I wouldn't really think about getting a watch serviced. That said, I know nothing about watches.

Ashley I can always count on your posts to make me smile

You have such a carefree and genuine approach to things!!

[onkyo]

Steve, sorry to hear about your Tudor .... I remember how excited you were when you bought it.

If you have the emails of the seller stating it was recently serviced I would forward them to paypal.

[TimeToGo]

Sorry to hear about this.

I know you do not want to mention the TRF name, but how about his Ebay feedback, how does that measure?

Do you still have a copy of the Ebay listing stating the watch was serviced. That would help on the resolution. I do not think he will pay for the full service, but maybe he will make it right and pick up half of tab...

[Nicko]

I have forwarded all the emails I have to Paypal, but I really don't see that it will help, PP got their fee and so did eBay, so for them it's all good.


I truthfully think the seller knew what it had as he is very knowledgeable with regard to vintage watches, and his said his watchmaker told him it was in good shape. Now, I really find this hard to believe. Now, the seller was really great during the entire selling period. He shipped the watch just how I asked, USPS Registered. The package took a very long time, 3 weeks I believe, I got anxious and filed a PP dispute because I couldn't see the tracking. Paypal found the dispute in my favor and a couple of days after the watch showed up. I of course reimbursed the seller. I bought the watch with my credit card and I told the seller that the funds weren't automatically returned to me and that they returned to the credit card and to please wait 2 days for the funds to be credited to my card. The seller went berserk and told me that he wanted his money back right now which right after he filed a Paypal dispute on me for fraud! He claimed I was trying to keep the money and the watch! I had to take money out of my savings account to pay him. He actually thought that I would keep the watch and post pictures on the internet and then not reimburse him after telling him it arrived! What a guy.

Anyway the seller will not answer any of my emails and I'm stuck paying the watchmaker for the repair of the watch.
Anyway, let this be a lesson to all.

[Nicko]

Here's the last email I received from him...He plainly states the watch was serviced here as well...

Hi Steve:

I am very sorry that you are having trouble with your watch. The previous owner (a very respected seller on Timezone) assured me that the watch had been serviced by his Rolex trained watchmaker in Austin. When my watch maker (with over 30 years of watchmaking experience) checked the watch out he said the watch was running well and its timing didn't indicate that a service was needed. I have over 15 years experience with my watchmaker and he as serviced more than a dozen of my vintage watches, so I have no reason to question his opinion. How long have you known your watchmaker? Has he worked many of your vintage watches in the past? $XXX for a service of a very simple automatic movement is outrageous, unwarranted, and honestly a rip-off. When I shipped the watch to you, it was running well and the auto winding system was operational. The watch had a very healthy power reserve, so it doesn't make sense that "many of the pieces have internally worn and froze up." If it were me, I would get another quote. I know that here in Denver, the cost of a service can very wildly depending who you go to.

[Nicko]

Do not buy from Billjetpilot

Please read my Tudor Sub saga here for further explanation.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=117123

[MikeyTX]

Originally Posted by Ashley

Steve, I'm really sorry to hear this. I hope it gets resolved quickly and cheaply.
To be honest, before reading this, I wouldn't really think about getting a watch serviced. That said, I know nothing about watches.

What ever you do Ashley ......................... Don't try to buy batteries for it !

[Zirotti]

At the end of the day, it is up for either the seller to prove it was serviced or the buyer that it was not. If I am going to sell a watch as being serviced, you better believe I will be providing a receipt or proof of service.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

At the end of the day, it is up for either the seller to prove it was serviced or the buyer that it was not. If I am going to sell a watch as being serviced, you better believe I will be providing a receipt or proof of service.

The proof will be the pictures of the corroded freaking movement with shavings I will be posting as soon as I get them from the watchmaker....

[Safetrends]

Steve, I had a timer for a safe which is the same type of movement as a watch. The timer had failed and when I removed the timer from the safe to take it in for service brass dust came out of it, not good end result is a big repair bill on a timer that was used every day for 15 years. If it was serviced every five years it would not have as much damage. Just a note for other TRF members about watches that do not get serviced they end up grinding the gears and pivots. I hope the best for you and your watch.

David

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by Nicko

The proof will be the pictures of the corroded freaking movement with shavings I will be posting as soon as I get them from the watchmaker....

That would be great to have detail photograph's of the watch being repaired.

[chriseskew24]

Thats why if I purchase a watch if there is no proof of a service takeing place (IT DIDENT HAPPEN!!!!!) Hope it all worke out Nicko

[billjetpilot]

There are two sides to every story. Here is my side:

I tried very hard to satisfy Nicko. I answered every one of his emails. I held his hand throughout the slow shipping process (he requested registered mail) even though he filed a dispute against me and won. After he received the watch, he didn't answer any of my emails requesting that he pay for it. He finally paid only after I filed my own dispute. I gave him a 3 day money back period to have the watch inspected. He was very happy with his watch and left me positive feedback. Almost a month later, Nicko filed another dispute against me on Paypal without even trying contacting me first. I felt bad about what happened and offered to help pay for the repair if the would drop the dispute against me. Nicko has refused to drop the dispute and Paypal has ruled in my favor.

I have been a seller on eBay and Timezone for 10 years and I have 100% positive feedback.

Billjetpilot

[billjetpilot]

Here are some quick shots of the actual movement just before it was sent to Nicko. Hardly the corroded frozen movement that Nicko claims is in the watch. The watch was checked out by my watchmaker (I have worked with for 15 years) and was in perfect operating condition. As I stated before, the previous owner (a very respected Timezone seller) assured me the watch had been serviced. I am not a dishonest seller. I have over 10 years of buying and selling watches with a perfect 100% positive feedback.

Billjetpilot

[CPTL]

Hmmm...maybe y'all oughta resolve this in private? Either way hope everyone is satisfied at the end.

[helion]

After reading through the thread, I am siding with the seller. It doesn't look like he misrepresented the watch and it sounds like the buyer gave him quite a hard time.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by billjetpilot

There are two sides to every story. Here is my side:

I tried very hard to satisfy Nicko. I answered every one of his emails. I held his hand throughout the slow shipping process (he requested registered mail) even though he filed a dispute against me and won. After he received the watch, he didn't answer any of my emails requesting that he pay for it. He finally paid only after I filed my own dispute. I gave him a 3 day money back period to have the watch inspected. He was very happy with his watch and left me positive feedback. Almost a month later, Nicko filed another dispute against me on Paypal without even trying contacting me first. I felt bad about what happened and offered to help pay for the repair if the would drop the dispute against me. Nicko has refused to drop the dispute and Paypal has ruled in my favor.


I have been a seller on eBay and Timezone for 10 years and I have 100% positive feedback.

Billjetpilot

Nicko didn't have time to drop the dispute because PayPal canceled it the same day! Look....

As for the slow shipping, if you read my posts I commended you on all the help you gave me throughout the process....

I also explained why I filed the dispute...

Hang tight and wait for the photos that will be forthcoming, they will tell the real story of the watch and it's lack of service. BTW, if you are open to communication you can PM me if you wish. Now everyone has heard your side of the story as well but it does not alter the fact that the watch lacked service even though I was old it was not.

[Nicko]

We will settle this in private, but Bill won't answer my emails....

The movement pics are really nice and they are the same ones I received from the seller, I will be posting some movement pics myself from my watchmaker, so hang tight.

[Andad]

I am just slipping out to buy some popcorn.

Back in a minute guys.

So Nicky, did you pass the exam or are you still in training?

[Lol-x]

So are you saying that the photos posted by the seller are not of the watch you purchased?

Originally Posted by Nicko

I also contacted the seller because when the watch was sold to me, it was sold under the pretense that it was serviced recently

What exactly was said prior to you saying 'yes' I'll buy the watch?
Saying it was sold under 'the pretense' is your conclusion of what happened, but what in fact was said by the seller as to the issue of the watch being serviced prior to you saying 'yes' I'll take it.
Anything said after that time is not really relevant as you had already agreed to buy the watch.

Originally Posted by Nicko

I think the seller knew it was a lemon and needed to pawn it off on someone else.

You shouldn't say 'i think' about something like this.
You should only say something like that if you 'know'.
As you didn't say 'I know' then you can't really say what the seller knew or intended by the sale.

Maybe you and the seller need to sit down and talk about what can be done to resolve this. It seems the seller is prepared to discuss the situation.

I don't think making multiple threads really helps the situation either.

[Nicko]

Anything said after that time is not really relevant as you had already agreed to buy the watch.

You are right. I agree with you 100%, It won't happen again, I have learned my lesson.

Maybe you and the seller need to sit down and talk about what can be done to resolve this. It seems the seller is prepared to discuss the situation.

Working on it...

I don't think making multiple threads really helps the situation either.

I apologize, I just had to vent Steve, it won't happen again. I have learned a very important lesson here. My next purchase will be from a respected seller here on TRF. I should have bought the Rose Sub from Steve M. that I was originally going to buy, that way I could be enjoying it right now and not wasting my time bickering...All above points taken, thanks.

[Andad]

I am still interested to see the pix from your watchmaker.

[Lol-x]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I am still interested to see the pix from your watchmaker.

I'm more concerned about trying to get a resolution to this situation. To try and at least bring both parties to a situation where they can put this behind them and move on, rather than go backwards and forwards again and again.

The seller is obviously welcome to contact the buyer directly but if he wishes he can put any offer to resolve this to me and I'll pass it onto the buyer.

[kotsos]

Given the information posted here the seller is innocent until proven guilty. The only proof that will change my mind are the photos that Nicko has been promising for the last 2 days. We are sitting tight......we are waiting......where are the photos?