My Tudor 7928 Sub Saga **Billjetpilot**

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by kotsos

Given the information posted here the seller is innocent until proven guilty. The only proof that will change my mind are the photos that Nicko has been promising for the last 2 days. We are sitting tight......we are waiting......where are the photos?

Thanks Steveo! Me too...

kotsos, my watchmaker is about an hour away from me, and I'm not sure you have been following what's been going on here in Southern Spain, but we have been having torrential rains and high winds for quite some time now, my basement is flooding and I also work as a teacher in the afternoons, so my days are quite full to say the least.

After I read this post I called my watchmaker to find out where he's at with the watch/photos. He has three shops, the main shop where I dropped off my watch and two others, it happens that he was in the Cádiz shop this morning and won't be back until the afternoon.

I don't live in a metropolis where I have everything at my fingertips, so bare with me. The pictures will be posted as I promised. The watch will also take a month I've been told, so the after pics will take even longer.

I will be in contact with the seller via PM/email, I don't want to broadcast every message here as I think it will frankly be a little sill and I've been asked to take this to PM anyway and will.

Calm down, I will post all relevant details here.

[idk01]

Steve, I would take Steve (Lol-x) up on his offer to play communique on this one my friend, I'm sure you and Bill can resolve this without too much public airing, its very good of Steve to offer as I know he's a very busy man and just want to see two of his members on this forum shake hands and work things out.

I certainly hope a quick resolve comes and you and Bill certainly walk away knowing both parties are satisfied.

Cheers,

Dave.

[swatty]

Originally Posted by Nicko

I apologize, I just had to vent Steve, it won't happen again. I have learned a very important lesson here. My next purchase will be from a respected seller here on TRF. I should have bought the Rose Sub from Steve M. that I was originally going to buy, that way I could be enjoying it right now and not wasting my time bickering...All above points taken, thanks.

I bought that Tudor from Steve M and it broke after 2 months. I figured its an old watch and I am lucky to have it. I believe its the risk you take buying vintage. My advice is to have your watch repaired and enjoy it

[oinkitt]

Originally Posted by swatty

I bought that Tudor from Steve M and it broke after 2 months. I figured its an old watch and I am lucky to have it. I believe its the risk you take buying vintage. My advice is to have your watch repaired and enjoy it

Peter, I dont want to exceed my post quota - but -

Here Here!!

[sakuraba]

Originally Posted by swatty

I bought that Tudor from Steve M and it broke after 2 months.

That's it! I'm staying away from the Tudors!

[swatty]

Originally Posted by oinkitt

Peter, I dont want to exceed my post quota - but -

Here Here!!

Good to hear from you Adrian

Originally Posted by sakuraba

That's it! I'm staying away from the Tudors!

Get one , they are great watches

[MikeyTX]

I had a tutor once in high school. Dang was she a hottie !

[BASSETHOUNDS]

Steve "Nicko" has forwarded me the pictures and the original text send to him by his watchmaker . He thought as I'm familiar with Spanish and unpartial to this case it might be better that I did the translation . First : I'm not native spanish and second and more so not a tech expert on watches and it's vocabulary . Lets say that pictures are worth a thousand words :

Original text :

Le envios las fotos de los fallos más significativos del Tudor Prince cal. 390.Las fotos están nombradas. 1º Oxido bajo rueda de transmisión sobre rochete del automatico.2º Piñón desremachado de la rueda, bajo piñón se aprecian circulos dorados más brillantes, significativos que el mismo gira sobre si, sin arrastrar a la rueda de 5 brazos. Con ese error el reloj no cargaria una vez puesto en la muñeca automaticamente.3º Platina, rueda centro y rueda corona se aprecia la suciedad y desengrase arrastrado de hace tiempo.4º Este es el puente donde van alojadas las principales ruedas de carga del automatico, se ven sucias, desengrasadas y con peligro de desgaste.5º La tija rota por el carrete, el trozo de cuadradillo y guía están dentro de la máquina.Todo esto sera necesario para su reparación, revisando todos los componentes restantes y incluyendo una revisión general de la máquina completa.Ajustes, control de marcha ( vibrograf).
Saludos.José María Galisteo.

Translation :
I send you the pictures of the most important defects on the Tudor Prince cal. 390 . The pictures are numbered .
1)Rust below the transmission ( driving ) wheel and on the ratchet wheel .
2)Pinion disengaged from the wheel , below the pignon one can notice shiny gold colored rings indicating that it is turning upon itself without touching the 5 spoke wheel . This results in the fact that the watch will not charge properly whilst being worn .
3)On the base(main) plate , center wheel and crown wheel we can appreciate dirt and worn out grease from quite a while back .
4)This the place where are located the main gears for the automatic wind , they are clearly dirty , unlubrificated and worn .
5)The broken ax winding stem , the squarish bit and guide are all within the movement . These parts will all have to be replaced , check all other parts and a complete overhaul for this complex movement will be needed . Adjustments and control on vibrograf .

The pictures : Alea jacta est

[Nicko]

I had posted them, but we must have been posting at the same time...Thanks a million for that translation. You are truly a friend..

[BASSETHOUNDS]

Originally Posted by Nicko

I had posted them, but we must have been posting at the same time...Thanks a million for that translation. You are truly a friend..

Any time , I just hope that you and the seller can come to some satisfactory solution for both of you .
You have crossed the Rubicon , now .

[billjetpilot]

I am sure that if we point a microscope at other parts of the watch we will discover that it is ,in fact, a vintage watch and shows the typical wear and tear of a vintage watch. Here is the item number of the listing: 260530390857. After he purchased the watch he asked for any history I had on the watch and that is when I told him that the previous owner had serviced the watch. Nowhere did I indicate the service history of the watch in the listing description. Notice the positive feedback five days after receiving the watch indicating that the watch was operating normally and the purchaser was happy with his watch. I did offer a 3 day money back period but nowhere did I indicate any type of warranty period.

[Nicko]

OK Bill, spin it any way you like. Since you won't speak with me, nor answer any emails then I guess I have to post it here. On you listing you stated:

"The dial and hands have been professionally refinished. The watch was pressure tested to factory specs by my watchmaker and is 100% authentic Rolex Tudor."

You did tell me, that your watchmaker looked at the watch and said it was in great shape. Then you sent me the following, granted, it was after the watch was purchased by me, but you still said it.

I have been a member of TimeZone for many years and purchased the watch from another member on the “Sales Corner.” Its previous owner had the watch serviced approximately one year ago by a Rolex trained watchmaker in Austin TX. It came with a sapphire display back and a very crude redial, so I set about to get the watch up to acceptable standards. My first step was getting a better dial and since totally original dials are rare and very expensive, I purchased a refinished dial from ND trading ($330) because they used authentic Tudor dials and their work looks virtually identical to an original. (They also have very good customer service, by the way.) My watchmaker here in Denver (www.henrisjewelry.com) installed the dial and re-finished the original hands with an “aged” lume. While there, he said that the custom caseback would not pass a pressure test, so my search began for an original 7928 caseback. I few weeks later, up pops on Ebay the exact caseback for my watch from a very reputable Rolex parts seller in the correct year! Amazed at my luck, I snatched it up right away. ($600) My watchmaker installed the “new” caseback with a new gasket and the watch passed the pressure test to factory specifications.

any way you slice it, the movement is a piece of junk and it's gonna cost me quite a bit to bring it back to specs. I sure hope there are some watch tecs hre that can chime in. I think it's a bit more than just an old movement, it was neglected and IMO it was known prior to selling it. You have been doing this for 15 years, come on, you know it's a bit more that just the macro shots....

[billjetpilot]

Yes, my watchmaker said that the watch was running well enough that a service was not indicated. The watch ,as you received it, was keeping good time, the autowind system was working as it should, and the watch had nearly a two day power reserve. You agreed the watch was running well, because you left positive feedback. Everything I told you in my listing and after you purchased the watch was true to the best of my knowledge and I never intended to mislead. The movement is not a piece of junk. It is a very nice vintage 390 movement. I think it is revealing to all that you would call it a piece of junk.

Get your watch repaired and serviced if you wish and then enjoy it, but don't try to bully me into paying for a $610 restoration when I did nothing to mislead you.

[billjetpilot]

Let me remind you that you are the one that started the "saga" thread before even trying to contact me. I am simply trying to defend myself to this very public attack that you started.

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by Nicko

OK Bill, spin it any way you like. Since you won't speak with me, nor answer any emails then I guess I have to post it here. On you listing you stated:

"The dial and hands have been professionally refinished. The watch was pressure tested to factory specs by my watchmaker and is 100% authentic Rolex Tudor."

You did tell me, that your watchmaker looked at the watch and said it was in great shape. Then you sent me the following, granted, it was after the watch was purchased by me, but you still said it.



any way you slice it, the movement is a piece of junk and it's gonna cost me quite a bit to bring it back to specs. I sure hope there are some watch tecs hre that can chime in. I think it's a bit more than just an old movement, it was neglected and IMO it was known prior to selling it. You have been doing this for 15 years, come on, you know it's a bit more that just the macro shots....

Steve I am in no way a expert here, however the Tudor watch if it is like a Rolex has a base model as an example my base model is a 1530 movement and the movement was built for a 1565. Now bear with me here, on Ebay I have seen clean movements for sale at a reasonable price and you can use a movement as a "parts movement" to restore your watch. Now the good thing is you can see the movement, for sale on Ebay and how clean it is. This would help you repair your watch and not beat you to death in the process of fixing it.

I hope you the best if you would like I could start looking and posting links to you if you would like, I would only need the movement model number.

[ChickoftheSea]

We have all made purchases we wish we hadn't. When this occurs, it seems to me that there are two choices: whine about it, or man up (or woman up as the case may be) and accept that you did something you regret.

After reading this whiny thread, it appears that the seller sold in good faith and the buyer can't accept that 1) in buying a vintage watch, failures might and in this case, did occur, and 2) that the seller never warranted the watch not to fail and is therefore not responsible. If this happened to me, I would be mad all right - mad at myself, which I was when I bought a vintage watch from an Aspen watch shop and then the darn thing fell apart. I had to take responsibility for my choice, so I did and I moved on.

So, the fact is that in this case, the watch failed and the buyer is left with a vintage watch that requires repair. While to him the watch may have little to no value, to me, this experience offers GREAT value. Nicko, what can you learn from this? I would say figure that out, be smarter the next time around, accept reality, and move on. When you get about the business of fixing the watch and letting go of this fight, I think you will find peace. And frankly, I believe so will the members of TRF who have been exposed to the regrettable choice to make this situation public.

[AF/1]

very well said, chick

[robertneville]

Originally Posted by AF/1

very well said, chick

x2. my thought is never buy anything used that you are not prepared to lose that money.

[Lol-x]

I am in the process of seeing if I can bring a resolution to this situation...............

This will be a private process.

[ChickoftheSea]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

I am in the process of seeing if I can bring a resolution to this situation...............

This will be a private process.

Praise the Lord

[MikeyTX]

Originally Posted by ChickoftheSea

Praise the Lord

Or, lock the thread !

[springer]

What occurred in this thread can happen, and happen to anyone here. I find it hard to believe that the seller's watchmaker had this watch apart for dial and hand replacement and said there were no issues with the watch.

The seller states the watch was serviced a little over a year ago and the watch is in working order. The seller gives this information to the buyer.

The buyer does not have the watch checked-out within the three day examination period after he receives the watch.

The watch "goes south" after three or four weeks, and the seller says, sorry, can't really help you out now. You left me positive feedback and said what a great watch this Tudor is. This is quite incredulous.

So, the watch is checked, photographed examined and it is clear that the watch was not as described by the seller, and needs a major overhaul.

If I am the seller, I'd feel like a complete fool and immediately, I mean immediately, take care of this mess. The watch was not as described. The three-day inspection period to me is always a red flag, I would never buy a watch with that stipulation. If they can't give you two or three weeks to have the watch checked out, then I'd shop elsewhere, expecially if buying the watch sight unseen.

I would be real po'd if this happened to me; and for those that wouldn't, well bless your hearts - because you have hearts of gold. But, to chastise the buyer to quit whining and "man-up" to a mistake is really over the top. His only mistake that I see was trusting the seller at his word.

My last thought is, how did the seller, who has nine posts on TRF, get this watch listed for sale on the forum (or am I missing something somewhere.) (I guess I did miss something, it was an ebay purchase.)

Good luck sorting this out Steve (Lol-x).

[chriseskew24]

Originally Posted by springer

My last thought is, how did the seller, who has nine posts on TRF, get this watch listed for sale on the forum (or am I missing something somewhere.)

Good luck sorting this out Steve (Lol-x).

The OP bought it on Ebay not on TRF seller just happens to be on TRF

[Zirotti]

The seller sold it on eBay, and then looks like started posting on TRF, perhaps from some encouragement from Nicko?

Either way, you need a loupe to see any type of wear on the movement. The original post made it sound like the watch was absolutely destroyed. The watch is what, 40 years old? The seller said it ran fine for him, and then Nicko said the watch ran for him for 30 days. Isn't this the biggest risk of when buying vintage? If this watch was a 5 year old watch that the seller taunted as being just serviced by RSC, this would be a completely different story.

I think the biggest challenge here is buyer's expectations. If the seller was selling a knowingly faulty watch, Nicko would have experienced problems well before the 30 day window.

Perhaps this is exactly why RSC refuses to service a lot of older watches? You simply can't guarantee something to run exactly to spec when it is that old.

With that being said, best to both parties.

[springer]

Thanks for the help gentlemen - ebay it is.

Buying vintage is risky, but it doesn't have to be. It's like many things in life. Take motorcycles for instance - I love riding my Harleys, but I have many friends that have no desire to buy or get on one. They think motorcycles are a fast ticket to doom. Millions of us have disproved that notion and enjoy the ride.

When my reputation is on the line though, it sure changes the thought process in my lower cerebellum. I'd rather be remembered for for how I handled a bad situation than for an unresolved alternative.

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

The seller sold it on eBay, and then looks like started posting on TRF, perhaps from some encouragement from Nicko?

Either way, you need a loupe to see any type of wear on the movement. The original post made it sound like the watch was absolutely destroyed. The watch is what, 40 years old? The seller said it ran fine for him, and then Nicko said the watch ran for him for 30 days. Isn't this the biggest risk of when buying vintage? If this watch was a 5 year old watch that the seller taunted as being just serviced by RSC, this would be a completely different story.

I think the biggest challenge here is buyer's expectations. If the seller was selling a knowingly faulty watch, Nicko would have experienced problems well before the 30 day window.

Perhaps this is exactly why RSC refuses to service a lot of older watches? You simply can't guarantee something to run exactly to spec when it is that old.

With that being said, best to both parties.

My 2 cents.
In regards to my 1601 made in 1973, I had the complete watch taken down and examined by myself and my watch repair man. I combed the watch for any problems. I have to admit I found a couple but it was with in reason. The movement was fresh and under a loupe it looked awsome.

In regards to my 1505 made in 1970, The same was done to it as the 1601 with the exception to the clasp damage that was repaired. I found a replacement within the band's year of manufacture and I am happy.

Yes it did cost more to have my watch repair man take it apart, a couple of hundred dollars, but it was worth it in the end. Just for good measure I had new Rolex springs installed and the 1601 will run for about 40 hours by it's self the watch repair man told me. The watches are good running solid 1565 and 1575 movements and for being 40 years old they run good today as they did when they left he factory. The 1601 is my daily watch and I love it.

[harry in montreal]

i dont know, but if i was buying a Mechanical antique through the mail, to be shipped thousands of miles... i would expect a repair of a few hundred dollars. sucks that its $600... but its still cheaper than buying a new rolex submariner. FYI, i think that tudor is nicer. lastly, the lesson to be learned here is that condition is a matter of OPINION. everyone has one, and no two are alike. if you cant assess condition in person you should assume that the thing will need some work. especially a 40 year old antique. i also think a seller of such items should be more spiritual and explain to a buyer that its an antique; its was not cleaned directly by him and could break at anytime. harry in montreal

[oinkitt]

Originally Posted by springer

What occurred in this thread can happen, and happen to anyone here. I find it hard to believe that the seller's watchmaker had this watch apart for dial and hand replacement and said there were no issues with the watch.

The seller states the watch was serviced a little over a year ago and the watch is in working order. The seller gives this information to the buyer.

The buyer does not have the watch checked-out within the three day examination period after he receives the watch.

The watch "goes south" after three or four weeks, and the seller says, sorry, can't really help you out now. You left me positive feedback and said what a great watch this Tudor is. This is quite incredulous.

So, the watch is checked, photographed examined and it is clear that the watch was not as described by the seller, and needs a major overhaul.

If I am the seller, I'd feel like a complete fool and immediately, I mean immediately, take care of this mess. The watch was not as described. The three-day inspection period to me is always a red flag, I would never buy a watch with that stipulation. If they can't give you two or three weeks to have the watch checked out, then I'd shop elsewhere, expecially if buying the watch sight unseen.

I would be real po'd if this happened to me; and for those that wouldn't, well bless your hearts - because you have hearts of gold. But, to chastise the buyer to quit whining and "man-up" to a mistake is really over the top. His only mistake that I see was trusting the seller at his word.

My last thought is, how did the seller, who has nine posts on TRF, get this watch listed for sale on the forum (or am I missing something somewhere.) (I guess I did miss something, it was an ebay purchase.)

Good luck sorting this out Steve (Lol-x).

I am sure this is going to offend some - but I agree with Chickofthesea!!!!!!

PEOPLE LIKE NICKO AND SPRINGER SHOULD NOT BUY "DEAD PEOPLES CRAP" - YOU ARE ONLY GOING TO BE DISAPOINTED!!!! BUY NEW STUFF IF YOU WANT IT BE BE NEW!!

As for a three day inspection peroid - anyone can have a watch inspected within 3 days - I buy at least 2 watches a month and generally get a watch repairer to look at them the next day to see what sort of nick they are in. Granted a quick look at the movement may not pick up everything one might find on a full service.

One should not buy vintage watches if you cant afford the service costs involved in the up keep of the movements. I personally allow for a service of any watch I buy - I suggest this frame of mind, then you will rarely be disappointed!!

I have been buying and selling "dead peoples crap" for 30 years, and I believe in being fair - but it really is caveat venditor, when buying second hand property.

Then there is the old issue of everyones opinion being different !!

The watch in question is one I would not touch, except to flip - but I note Nicko and a number of other forum members think very highly of it. It is my opinion, that given the fact that the watch has a new look (refinished dial, replaced hands) persons who like this look should buy new watches as it would seem they want a new watch. If you bought a 50 year old car with a new paint job and the original motor, it would be unreasonable to expect that it not break down.

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaar

[BASSETHOUNDS]

It is not because I translated the findings of the watchmaker that I immediately side with the buyer . It is only after the seller posted the Ebay reference that I saw exactly what was offered .
The seller states that it had been "pressure tested " by his watchmaker , to be honest even me as a watch enthusiast read into that and would assume that it had been serviced . This was obviously not the case . So I can understand that people buying on VRF would be able to differentiate between "pressure tested by a watchmaker" and "serviced by a watchmaker " but your average punter on Ebay would not . It is clear that the seller only justifies all this by pointing out "legal" technicalities " of the sale .

[oinkitt]

Originally Posted by bassethounds

it is not because i translated the findings of the watchmaker that i immediately side with the buyer . It is only after the seller posted the ebay reference that i saw exactly what was offered .
The seller states that it had been "pressure tested " by his watchmaker , to be honest even me as a watch enthusiast read into that and would assume that it had been serviced . This was obviously not the case . So i can understand that people buying on vrf would be able to differentiate between "pressure tested by a watchmaker" and "serviced by a watchmaker " but your average punter on ebay would not . It is clear that the seller only justifies all this by pointing out "legal" technicalities " of the sale .

never assume anything - assume at your own peril!