What if your legit purchase gets reported stolen?

[hsfrank]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

I don't see that anything you said contradicts or corrects anything I said. I didn't say the seller must know the watch was stolen in order for the buyer to have recourse to recover the purchase amount. If the watch was in fact stolen at the time of sale, then it's a given the seller did not have title to convey to the buyer, so I did not go into that.

Good point with the SOL. I suppose that could vary depending on the applicable statute, and when it deems a claim to have accrued. If the claim accrues at the time of sale, then SOL could be problematic. If the claim accrues once the theft becomes known to buyer, that's less of an obstacle.

It doesn’t contradict you. I just wanted to clarify.

[Dusko.Popov]

Originally Posted by brandrea

If you’re dealing with a reputable gray seller than you have nothing to worry about as they will stand behind the product they sell, just like an AD

Hahahahaha!!!

In seven or eight years from now, when you send your watch in for servicing, all well worn and scratched up from good use and daily wear, and Rsc says that your watch has been reported stolen, good luck with asking that “trusted seller” for your $10k back ... if, indeed, Rolex hasn’t put that “trusted seller” out of business by then.

By the way, the watches that get stolen every day, that people post links and unfortunate stories about, where do you think those watches end up? Pawn shops in Flippin, Arkansas?

“Trusted sellers” don’t check origin, that check for authenticity. Therefore, it’s only a matter of time - likely in a decade or so after purchase when they send it in for servicing - that people will start finding out interesting and unfortunate facts about the true origins of the watch that they bought second hand.

By directly from an ad folks. Get your name on the card. Don’t second guess your ownership.

Walk that happy path of least resistance.

[Dusko.Popov]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

I don't see that anything you said contradicts or corrects anything I said. I didn't say the seller must know the watch was stolen in order for the buyer to have recourse to recover the purchase amount. If the watch was in fact stolen at the time of sale, then it's a given the seller did not have title to convey to the buyer, so I did not go into that.

Good point with the SOL. I suppose that could vary depending on the applicable statute, and when it deems a claim to have accrued. If the claim accrues at the time of sale, then SOL could be problematic. If the claim accrues once the theft becomes known to buyer, that's less of an obstacle.

Man you guys are good. About the only thing I remember from law school ten or so years ago is Rules against Perpetuities and the drunk guys who created a contract to sell a house on a bar napkin. Apparently, in school, I was too busy thinking about liquor and leisure on that upcoming weekend.

[pilotjim]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

I've been considering a SubC 116610LN for some time -- just looking for the right life excuse to buy it.

I was set on buying from one of our trusted forum private sellers, but what if a watch they sell with complete box and papers was stolen in its previous life, unbeknownst to the seller? I do NOT suspect any trusted seller here would knowingly accept a stolen watch. But, what if a watch with full kit was stolen during a home burglary and made it's way to a trusted seller after changing hands a few times?

Obviously, this is an unlikely scenario. I personally believe that a "full kit" private sale is the only way to go for buying private, and greatly reduces the risk of a stolen watch.

Just wondering if this has ever occurred, and what legal recourse I'd have in getting my watch back if Rolex were to seize it during a service 10 years down the road.

Private party pricing is very attractive at around $8000, compared to the $8550 + tax ($9200 out the door) here in Arizona.

Just thinking out loud, opinions welcome.

One cautionary step you could take would be to obtain the serial number before purchase and ask your local police to check it through NCIC. They may not be able (or willing) to do this for you, especially in a busy, large department, but this would at least tell you if the watch has ever been reported stolen to the police.

[FB3783]

Since your in Arizona I'll throw my two cents in. You wouldn't be criminally liable unless you knowingly purchased a stolen watch or reasonably should have known it was stolen, like buying a Daytona for 3K from a tweaker who couldn't tell you why he has the watch and the warranty card was in a woman's name.

No jewelry store or AD could positively know that an item has not been reported stolen. They don't have access to the same checks that the police have. The good news is that most police departments will check if the item has been reported stolen if you bring it to them. Also if your buyer will go to the police station with you they are probably legit. The check is made through a national database called NCIC. I know firearms stay in the database forever but I don't think artifacts stay over 10 years. However I'm not sure of that. This is separate than Rolex's database and the two databases do not interact.

Now here is the scary part. Suppose that watch was stolen years ago, maybe by a family member or care giver and then reported stolen after the theft was discovered. Also what if the watch was misplaced and reported stolen. The watch wasn't actually stolen when you bought it but now it is.

So unless you buy your watch new you will never know. Personally both my Rolexs were purchased used. I felt confident in the seller and had the watches checked to see if they were reported stolen.

As far as sending them into the RSC I prefer to deal with my local independent watch maker anyway.

[rollee1]

It has happened before the buyer is SOL, regardless of excuse.

As said buy from AD, at times even reputable dealers cannot guarantee the source the be 100% clean, there are too many variables to verify.
What if the original owner decide to pull a swap and bait ?

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by beshannon

If you are going to question the source of your watch then you should be buying from an Authorized Dealer

[masterdinh]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

I've been considering a SubC 116610LN for some time -- just looking for the right life excuse to buy it.

I was set on buying from one of our trusted forum private sellers, but what if a watch they sell with complete box and papers was stolen in its previous life, unbeknownst to the seller? I do NOT suspect any trusted seller here would knowingly accept a stolen watch. But, what if a watch with full kit was stolen during a home burglary and made it's way to a trusted seller after changing hands a few times?

Obviously, this is an unlikely scenario. I personally believe that a "full kit" private sale is the only way to go for buying private, and greatly reduces the risk of a stolen watch.

Just wondering if this has ever occurred, and what legal recourse I'd have in getting my watch back if Rolex were to seize it during a service 10 years down the road.

Private party pricing is very attractive at around $8000, compared to the $8550 + tax ($9200 out the door) here in Arizona.

Just thinking out loud, opinions welcome.

Buy it from DavidSW and you wont have to worry about anything.... Well worth it.

[Rocket_Man]

Occasionally a see an ad for a watch for sale on TRF or some other forum with pictures that show the serial number. I will never buy a watch from such an ad. Someone could have used that serial number and the pictures of the watch, taken out an insurance policy on the watch, and then report it stolen. Along the same lines, I'm not sure a seller would hand over the serial number to an unknown buyer without taking the risk they would commit insurance fraud.

I've bought from TS but the watch was new with an unsigned warranty card. So I wasn't worried. I'd never buy from eBay or Craigslist something of value that could be stolen.

Everyone needs to make decisions based on their own risk tolerance.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Dusko.Popov

Hahahahaha!!!

In seven or eight years from now, when you send your watch in for servicing, all well worn and scratched up from good use and daily wear, and Rsc says that your watch has been reported stolen, good luck with asking that “trusted seller” for your $10k back ... if, indeed, Rolex hasn’t put that “trusted seller” out of business by then.

By the way, the watches that get stolen every day, that people post links and unfortunate stories about, where do you think those watches end up? Pawn shops in Flippin, Arkansas?

“Trusted sellers” don’t check origin, that check for authenticity. Therefore, it’s only a matter of time - likely in a decade or so after purchase when they send it in for servicing - that people will start finding out interesting and unfortunate facts about the true origins of the watch that they bought second hand.

By directly from an ad folks. Get your name on the card. Don’t second guess your ownership.

Walk that happy path of least resistance.

If a TS is still trading here then yes he will refund you as soon as you have provable evidence. However in the next few years a lot of TS could get squeezed out of the market as many brands are trying to cut off their supply now, so it might be a good idea to send to RSC after a year or two for a service/repair quote just to be extra sure.

[Dusko.Popov]

Originally Posted by AK797

If a TS is still trading here then yes he will refund you as soon as you have provable evidence. However in the next few years a lot of TS could get squeezed out of the market as many brands are trying to cut off their supply now, so it might be a good idea to send to RSC after a year or two for a service/repair quote just to be extra sure.

I would hope so. I think that trusted sellers are good folks who have a good reputation here.

Unfortunately watches are stolen a lot. Members here post a personal or news story about that happening almost weekly. Those stolen watches unfortunately end up in the legitimate stream of commerce. Unsuspecting consumers buy them because some will undeniably end up in the hands of legitimate, credible, volume sellers.

A story floated around a few years ago about someone who bought a stolen watch from a popular online second-hand retailer. The retailer apparently made good on refunding after some weeks of correspondence. That still sucks and isn't a situation that any consumer, in the course of an ordinary commercial transaction, should have to deal with.

That's not an indictment on anyone by the way. But it shows that that happens and will happen. For those who unwittingly buy the stolen watch, they have to hope they find out about it before the "trusted seller" or online retailer is squeezed out. There are few ways to find out. The best way is to send it to Rolex as part of servicing. Most don't do that for some years after purchase though as part of a normal service interval. By then, a lot of things might change about the availability of that seller.

The person who is crapped on in that situation is the unwitting consumer.

I'm not sure that chance is worth it to save a grand. To me, ownership assurance is worth the extra purchase price to buy from an ad.

[Cauhauna]

Some great responses in this thread. Thank you, all.

I've personally come to three conclusions:

1) If buying a model where resale is close to retail (116610LN, for example) the savings (around $1000) aren't worth it. Further, I could always buy in a tax free state, or have the watch shipped out of state to avoid sales tax at the time of sale. Taxes are due on this purchase when you file taxes, but that's a different topic.

2) If buying a model where resale is substantial savings from retail (116619 Smurf), buy from the most trusted seller you can find, with full box/papers, as new as possible (a watch with a card dated in 2018 has a lot less time to change hands after stolen than a watch with a card dated in 2015)

3) When buying used, contact the local police and have them run the serial through NCIC. This isn't foolproof, but worth a look.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by Dusko.Popov

Hahahahaha!!!

In seven or eight years from now, when you send your watch in for servicing, all well worn and scratched up from good use and daily wear, and Rsc says that your watch has been reported stolen, good luck with asking that “trusted seller” for your $10k back ... if, indeed, Rolex hasn’t put that “trusted seller” out of business by then.

By the way, the watches that get stolen every day, that people post links and unfortunate stories about, where do you think those watches end up? Pawn shops in Flippin, Arkansas?

“Trusted sellers” don’t check origin, that check for authenticity. Therefore, it’s only a matter of time - likely in a decade or so after purchase when they send it in for servicing - that people will start finding out interesting and unfortunate facts about the true origins of the watch that they bought second hand.

By directly from an ad folks. Get your name on the card. Don’t second guess your ownership.

Walk that happy path of least resistance.

Trusted sellers purchase the vast majority of their inventory direct from an AD. Origin is pretty clear I would say. Buying BNIB from a TS is therefore the same as buying from an AD, no question about ownership and a lot cheaper on the models I like.
I did many times and have my name on the cards and full warranty for MRSP - 28 to 30%.
Go the AD route if you like, it's like paying for double insurance

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by joli160

Trusted sellers purchase the vast majority of their inventory direct from an AD. Origin is pretty clear I would say. Buying BNIB from a TS is therefore the same as buying from an AD, no question about ownership and a lot cheaper on the models I like.
I did many times and have my name on the cards and full warranty for MRSP - 28 to 30%.
Go the AD route if you like, it's like paying for double insurance

i do think that is changing as bulk purchases are getting harder it seems. Im thinking part of the price rise on the secondary market is there are more steps involved than previously, as TS are getting more watches from individual purchasers vs direct from AD. In general.

I know for sure its the case in the UK where the large secondary sellers are getting most of their pieces from individuals vs sourcing directly from AD's as they just can't do it anymore.

[AK797]

Yes, I think more and more are coming from private flippers so the provenance is less secure, so best now to either take out insurance for it being already stolen or send to RSC for a quote within a year if you have any doubts. The chances are still miniscule.

[zimv20ca]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

3) When buying used, contact the local police and have them run the serial through NCIC. This isn't foolproof, but worth a look.

and it requires that the seller provide the serial number. do sellers commonly do that?

i recently bought used from a local jewelry store, w/ the warranty card. my approach was to take it to an RSC soon after sale, with the card, whereupon they looked in their db and indicated it was never reported stolen.

i suppose that was a risk on my part, but i'd rather find out now (and have recourse w/ the store) than some years down the road. and now Rolex will register me as the legit owner, which strikes me as a positive thing.

[77T]

Originally Posted by joli160

Trusted sellers purchase the vast majority of their inventory direct from an AD. Origin is pretty clear I would say. Buying BNIB from a TS is therefore the same as buying from an AD, no question about ownership and a lot cheaper on the models I like.

I did many times and have my name on the cards and full warranty for MRSP - 28 to 30%.

Go the AD route if you like, it's like paying for double insurance

Perhaps - but in searching LNIB + BNIB shows only 10% of all listings are so described. If only BNIB, then less than 5%. That leaves you missing the vast majority of available pieces.

You’ll never buy a 116520, or any vintage pieces, etc. BNIB (well maybe a NOS 116520, but scarcer than hen’s teeth).

As others have said, do the deal with trusted sellers - ask about the risk of loss due to being on the Rolex theft list - and then verify your purchase via an RSC quote for service.

Just my


Sent from my iPhoneX using Tapatalk

[JacksonStone]

Not to sound like a shill for Bob's Watches, but I notice on their website, every watch they sell includes a Watch Assist report from the Watch Certification Services of America (WCSA), which claims the watch has passed a "Stolen Database Search." Does anyone know if that is the NCIC database? Beyond that, is WCSA a reliable outfit?

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by hsfrank

It doesn’t contradict you. I just wanted to clarify.

I see. I took "as far as it goes" and "however" as indications of a correction.

[spoilsofwar01]

Originally Posted by pblondon

It happened to a friend of mine in the UK.

He bought from a grey dealer and then many years later sent the watch in for a service. It had previously been reported to Rolex as stolen by an insurance company (which by UK law means the insurance company then own it).

It turned out that whoever had originally sold it to the grey then subsequently also claimed from the insurance company as stolen (so a fraudulent claim).

It took a few months but after negotiation with the insurance company and proof of his ownership before the insurance claim had been made and it was returned to him.

I'm pleased to hear this,

[77T]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

Not to sound like a shill for Bob's Watches, but I notice on their website, every watch they sell includes a Watch Assist report from the Watch Certification Services of America (WCSA), which claims the watch has passed a "Stolen Database Search." Does anyone know if that is the NCIC database? Beyond that, is WCSA a reliable outfit?

Largely self-reported - a loose confederation versus actually having access to NCIC - which only LE has access to.

Here is a broader article from last year - and a link in it shows the "Watch Register" purporting to help anyone for a small fee...

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/th...eft/index.html

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by 77T

Largely self-reported - a loose confederation versus actually having access to NCIC - which only LE has access to.

Here is a broader article from last year - and a link in it shows the "Watch Register" purporting to help anyone for a small fee...

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/th...eft/index.html

Thanks.

[newbee1]

What happens when a watch has been reported stolen by two people. Whom Rolex contact ? For example, let’s say buyer1 has insurance and reports missing watch. After a while that missing watch goes to different buyers and lastly to buyer10 who insured it again. Now buyer 10 looses it too and reports missing. When this watches reaches to police or Rolex, who gets it, buyer1 or buyer10 ? Do insurance companies check serial numbers before letting anyone buy insurance?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Onikage]

You could buy one with recent Rolex service history. I suppose there's still a chance it was stolen afterwards though. I prefer not to think of this. Box + Papers means not stolen... even though it could be .. damn.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by newbee1

What happens when a watch has been reported stolen by two people. Whom Rolex contact ? For example, let’s say buyer1 has insurance and reports missing watch. After a while that missing watch goes to different buyers and lastly to buyer10 who insured it again. Now buyer 10 looses it too and reports missing. When this watches reaches to police or Rolex, who gets it, buyer1 or buyer10 ? Do insurance companies check serial numbers before letting anyone buy insurance?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

now this is getting into very very hypothetical situations. Its still the property of the original owner or the original insurance company if they paid out a claim. Doesnt matter how many times stolen property changes hands, the claim is still to the original owner as subsequent purchases are not legitimate.

You cant legitimately own anything you have no clear title to regardless if you know or not.

With competing claims, they would probably reach out to both parties, but in the end it goes to the person with the clear claim. The original one.

[MylesFalkingham]

Originally Posted by Cauhauna

I've been considering a SubC 116610LN for some time -- just looking for the right life excuse to buy it.

I was set on buying from one of our trusted forum private sellers, but what if a watch they sell with complete box and papers was stolen in its previous life, unbeknownst to the seller? I do NOT suspect any trusted seller here would knowingly accept a stolen watch. But, what if a watch with full kit was stolen during a home burglary and made it's way to a trusted seller after changing hands a few times?

Obviously, this is an unlikely scenario. I personally believe that a "full kit" private sale is the only way to go for buying private, and greatly reduces the risk of a stolen watch.

Just wondering if this has ever occurred, and what legal recourse I'd have in getting my watch back if Rolex were to seize it during a service 10 years down the road.

Private party pricing is very attractive at around $8000, compared to the $8550 + tax ($9200 out the door) here in Arizona.

Just thinking out loud, opinions welcome.

I feel that on this forum we are very safe, as long as you do your research you should be fine

[blktaln]

Originally Posted by G-Web

Without getting caught up in the integrity of trusted sellers here, I can tell you from experience what happens if you send a watch to RSC and it turns up in their database that the watch has been reported stolen.

Years ago I sent a watch I bought (not from a trusted seller) into RSC Dallas. Shortly thereafter I received via Fedex a letter from Rolex's law firm in NYC informing me that the watch I'd sent in for service had been reported stolen in the early 90's. As there were now two claimants to the watch (me and the insurance company who'd reported it stolen) Rolex asks that the claimants try to settle the matter of ownership. The law firm acted as the go-between between me and the insurance company on this one.

The letter went on to say that if the two claimants are unable to settle the question of ownership, Rolex will sue both of us. It took me a minute to understand, but since they are not an arbiter of the law, and cannot legally decide the question of ownership, Rolex will bring it to court for the court to decide ownership.

In my case, the insurance company that reported the watch stolen was unable to find the paper records from that time and forfeited their claim. Rolex held onto the watch while this was going on. Once the insurance company forfeited their claim, RSC went ahead and serviced the watch, and informed me that its record of having been stolen would now be expunged.

So, in my case it ended well.
But in a nutshell, that's what happens. You get a letter from Rolex's law firm saying in effect, 'please try to settle the matter. If you can't we'll have a court settle it for you.'

I hope that helps.
Cheers,
-GW

apologies on reviving an old thread

Well this happened to me and I'm dealing with it currently. I bought a Gold Daytona last year prior to COVID from Bob's Watches. A month ago I sent my to RSC in Dallas for service and last week received a letter from Gibney that the watch was previously reported stolen and they're holding it until the rightful owner is established.

To be fair, these stolen database isn't accessible to the dealers so I'm given them the benefit of the doubt that they were also unaware of the prior claim. The good news is that the party that reported stolen is a retailer and Gibney is helping me get in touch with them. I'm hoping retailer have claimed with insurance as well and the outcome would be the same as above.

The watch appreciated quite a bit in the past year so it will be interesting to see how it all resolve. Will keep everyone updated on this, and I'm optimistic that Bob's Watches will make things right if needed.

[wcs2229]

Please update us on what eventually happens. Thanks.

[JRell]

Reason #101 I only buy from a Rolex AD.

[101031-28]

Originally Posted by blktaln

apologies on reviving an old thread

Well this happened to me and I'm dealing with it currently. I bought a Gold Daytona last year prior to COVID from Bob's Watches. A month ago I sent my to RSC in Dallas for service and last week received a letter from Gibney that the watch was previously reported stolen and they're holding it until the rightful owner is established.

To be fair, these stolen database isn't accessible to the dealers so I'm given them the benefit of the doubt that they were also unaware of the prior claim. The good news is that the party that reported stolen is a retailer and Gibney is helping me get in touch with them. I'm hoping retailer have claimed with insurance as well and the outcome would be the same as above.

The watch appreciated quite a bit in the past year so it will be interesting to see how it all resolve. Will keep everyone updated on this, and I'm optimistic that Bob's Watches will make things right if needed.

WOW! So sorry this happened to you. Please keep us posted. Praying it all works out in your favor.