Expert opinion wanted: Faded naturally or artificially?

[coelacanthus]

Hi guys,

I wanted to add a coke bezel insert for my T serial 16710 which currently has an all black insert. Since I don’t have the paper, I can’t tell which insert came with the watch from the factory, but the current black bezel seems to be correct for the period and likely the original insert came with the watch. I’m the 3rd owner since new.

Now this coke insert I just got in the mail from an auction site seller with extensive 100% track record. I’ve looked at hundreds of photos and excellent threads here on TRF. From what I can gather, the period should be in the ballpark, and I believe it is a genuine Rolex insert. This is my 1st purchase of bezel insert ever, and I could use some extra eyes of the experts here.

I’m a bit worried because

• it’s quite faded.
• Has very matte look to it.
• I can see a bit of stain-like tone change from 10 to 14 hr markers.

With those remarks and photos

• Period correct for T serial 16710?
• Do you think the bezel aged naturally?
• If you suspect bleaching or other forms of artificial aging, how can you tell?

I looked at this thread too but couldn't conclude the investigation by myself (link removed)

My 16710 is an honest unpolished example with all original parts as far as I can tell, and I’d love to keep that theme going.

Thanks for your advice!

Edit: OK looks I can't post photo nor link to an album due to post count. Hmm. Will see if I can do something about this...

[coelacanthus]

Well, I guess I don't have a legit way to show the picture without breaking forum rules. I hate just posting random stuff to build up post count. I have posted a quick intro and added some info for someone else up to this point on TRF. I hope I'll get to post photos soon...

[coelacanthus]

In the meantime, if someone can suggest a good read on this subject, that would be fantastic. I've checked out "GMT Bezel Inserts, Aftermarket Inserts and Bleached Inserts" thread (can't post link), but couldn't come to a conclusion.

[henrylee]

Photo would be best

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by henrylee

Photo would be best

Still not enough post count to add photo or post links... Hopefully soon...

[henrylee]

Go comment on some treads

[Andad]

Based on the pix .... I got 'nuthin.

Except patience.

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by henrylee

Go comment on some treads

Yes I'm slowly doing it. I don't want to spam threads for the sake of my post so I'm trying to make meaningful comments only. :)

[coelacanthus]

BTW, I can still return the insert if needed. OK, one more post.

[Gaijin]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Based on the pix .... I got 'nuthin.

Except patience.

[Andad]

Would you like to make that post now?

Yes or no?

And don't be embarrassed there are some who have 90% one word posts.

Stop laughing Tom.

[coelacanthus]

I know I know. OK here we go.

[coelacanthus]

[uncleluck]

Be interested to see what the experts say but if it was dunked in bleach the red everywhere the sun wouldn’t have got to would also be ‘faded’. It looks like it might be ‘faded’ round the inner edge on the back? But then another part looks bright.

Does the red on the underside look as faded as the red on top in hand?

What’s more valuable, an original mint period correct insert or a faded period correct insert? Surely if a mint period correct insert is more valuable nobody in their right mind would bleach it.

I’d be inclined to gauge the age of it, then check the underside red and make a decision based on those points. If it’s relatively new and the red looks pink on the areas not exposed to the sun then it’s been ‘enhanced’

[swish77]

Nice-looking insert. The slight inconsistency in the fade on the red is curious, but could be natural. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows how the watch was worn through the years and what it was exposed to? Maybe that part of the watch/bezel was always being covered by part of a jacket or shirt cuff. Just a thought.

In any event, these inserts for sapphire crystal GMTs are not expensive, especially the Coke inserts. I think the insert looks cool and I’d keep it. Now, if this was a 1675 insert, that would be a completely different discussion.

[Floorguy]

Lets see what JP has to say!!

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by uncleluck

Be interested to see what the experts say but if it was dunked in bleach the red everywhere the sun wouldn’t have got to would also be ‘faded’. It looks like it might be ‘faded’ round the inner edge on the back? But then another part looks bright.

Does the red on the underside look as faded as the red on top in hand?

What’s more valuable, an original mint period correct insert or a faded period correct insert? Surely if a mint period correct insert is more valuable nobody in their right mind would bleach it.

I’d be inclined to gauge the age of it, then check the underside red and make a decision based on those points. If it’s relatively new and the red looks pink on the areas not exposed to the sun then it’s been ‘enhanced’

Good points.

• Back side doesn't have distinctive separation between faded and non-faded like you'd see by bleaching the insert while it's still on bezel. The black on the whole back is somewhat dirty/dusty looking but I've read it's quite normal.

• The outer rim/side of the insert is not as faded as the front. Can't really capture with phone camera, but under 10x magnification, I can see the side surface of the insert which would be sitting below the bezel edge are noticeably redder/blacker and got more glossiness compared to the exposed part.

• Red streaks on the back is also noticeably redder than the front.


Here you can catch vivider colors and glossier/cleaner surface on the outer rim of the insert.

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by swish77

Nice-looking insert. The slight inconsistency in the fade on the red is curious, but could be natural. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows how the watch was worn through the years and what it was exposed to? Maybe that part of the watch/bezel was always being covered by part of a jacket or shirt cuff. Just a thought.

That got me curious. I looked at dozens of sold archive photos of my local reputable vintage dealer, and saw 2 or 3 other 16710 from 90s (with faded inserts) showing similar mark/inconsistency across 10-14. That would be at 6 o'clock position if the bezel was set to pip-up. Don't know if this is a good sign or not (some manufacturing anomalies in the 90s? way people bleach?), but it is curious.

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by Floorguy

Lets see what JP has to say!!

Yes, I'd love to hear what JP has to say. His insert comparison thread was extremely informative.

[joli160]

If you can't tell just assume it is faded by bleach or whatever as are probably most in the market. Command premium $$.

Might as well buy a brand new one and DIY, probably a lot cheaper with the same looks

[henrylee]

I don't know but it looks bleached to me. The back should not be so faded as it does not get exposed to the sun or the elements.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by joli160

If you can't tell just assume it is faded by bleach or whatever as are probably most in the market. Command premium $$.

Might as well buy a brand new one and DIY, probably a lot cheaper with the same looks

These used GMT bezel inserts for 5-digits models (faded or otherwise) are not expensive, nor are brand new ones. Many are listed on forums and eBay (do your homework) in the $150-$200 range.

Also, Rolex still sells them, and they give you the option of keeping your original for an extra $48. I was in RSC NYC last week with this very question for my 16710. It's in the $100 range for a new one (you can choose Pepsi, Coke or black), although they will only do it if they install it for you. It always amazes me when I see new ones for sale online in the $400-$500 range. Why on earth would anyone pay that when new ones from Rolex itself are so much cheaper?

One thing to keep in mind is that some of the older ones have a different font that is a little thicker and with a slight serif.

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by swish77

These used GMT bezel inserts for 5-digits models (faded or otherwise) are not expensive, nor are brand new ones. Many are listed on forums and eBay (do your homework) in the $150-$200 range.

Also, Rolex still sells them, and they give you the option of keeping your original for an extra $48. I was in RSC NYC last week with this very question for my 16710. It's in the $100 range for a new one (you can choose Pepsi, Coke or black), although they will only do it if they install it for you. It always amazes me when I see new ones for sale online in the $400-$500 range. Why on earth would anyone pay that when new ones from Rolex itself are so much cheaper?

One thing to keep in mind is that some of the older ones have a different font that is a little thicker and with a slight serif.

Yep. I have RSC SF (Guess he's no longer RSC huh) and I'm sure they can get me a new insert. I know they'll let me keep the old one. At some point I might do just that.

I do like the idea of wabi-sabi/faded insert but I was not into artificially aged one or paying crazy money for it. I got this one for just about the price you'd pay for new one installed at RSC, and I can return it if I need to.

I'd love to hear experts opinions before I make the determination of either keeping or returning the insert.

[dbfagan]

Originally Posted by Floorguy

Lets see what JP has to say!!

Here is some bezel info from the master:

https://rolexvintageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=126

Good luck with your quandary.

David

[springer]

Not even close. 100% bleached.

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by springer

Not even close. 100% bleached.

Thank you, JP. As much as it hurts, I much needed the expert's knowledge, and thank you TRF for helping me out. I'm going to return this one.

I just stopped by at SF RSC (it's now IRSC...) and Giovanni fitted a Coke bezel and cleaned up the ratchet mechanism for me. Of course I still have the original all-black bezel so I can go back to it whenever I want.



Lesson learned. I'm going to age this one naturally with use myself. :)

[scooba]

Originally Posted by springer

Not even close. 100% bleached.

There you have it !

[scooba]

Originally Posted by coelacanthus

Thank you, JP. As much as it hurts, I much needed the expert's knowledge, and thank you TRF for helping me out. I'm going to return this one.

I just stopped by at SF RSC (it's now IRSC...) and Giovanni fitted a Coke bezel and cleaned up the ratchet mechanism for me. Of course I still have the original all-black bezel so I can go back to it whenever I want.



Lesson learned. I'm going to age this one naturally with use myself. :)

Lovely , Well done now get it on a Jubilee

[coelacanthus]

Originally Posted by scooba

Lovely , Well done now get it on a Jubilee

I got the watch with 78790 bracelet but ya, I have a feeling that I'll end up with Jubilee bracelet as well as all three inserts at some point. :)

[scooba]

Originally Posted by coelacanthus

I got the watch with 78790 bracelet but ya, I have a feeling that I'll end up with Jubilee bracelet as well as all three inserts at some point. :)

Thats what my son has done two bracelets and all three inserts , perfect for changing it up . Looks great on the leather as well , Bulang and Sons do some leather with coloured stitching that works well with pepsi inserts , worth looking

Enjoy the watch and thx for sharing