Do Our Rolex Watches "Break In"

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by jvb.nc

there are definitely oil changes for watches. just not every 5,000 miles.

Precisely.
Oils and potentially grease depending on the movement.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by beshannon

I believe that all machines with moving parts and lubrication will "break in" after being run. The oils distribute evenly, the parts mesh together better and run more smoothly.

Precisely.
Some machines can take up to three or more oil changes before an epuilibrium and steady wear trends are achieved.
Used oil analysis proves this all the time.

There are three states of lubrication and it's not inconceivable that they all exist within a watch movement, with boundary lubrication being the most destructive just as it is with everything else.

[2x4]

In May I picked a new DJ41. Supposed to have a 70 hour reserve. I wear it every day, Monday through Friday, take it off Friday evening, but it would never make it all the way to Monday. Never really bothered but after maybe a month or so, it makes all the way through.
Same way with my wife’s DJ.

[amanbra]

Two of my rolexes displayed no break in 1 did. Went from +6 to about +3 after three months.

[PeterBakke]

My 114060 bought new a month ago is gaining 0.7-1 second per day without much fluctuations.
I have tracked it daily using the Twixt app. So no apparent break in in my measurements :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by Dirt

You have a lot to learn.
Let's start with the oil change on a watch issue.

What do you think happens(what is the process) with a service on a movement?
I'll give you a hint. Virtually every molecule of the various degraded oils/lubes gets removed along with microscopic pieces of metal and bearings.
Far more thoroughly than you could imagine ever happens with a car service.

In fact, a reputable watchmaker or RSC requires this to be part of a service to the point they will refuse the work if a customer wants to do a bodgy job of it.

Please allow me to explain myself.

I know what happens with a service, not all the details as I am no watchmaker, and will not pretend that I am one, but I’ve seen videos where watchmakers take the movement apart, put it in a machine to clean every part, replace the main spring and other parts if needed, apply oil very carefully and put it all back together.

What I meant is this....

Cars are supposed to have an oil change every 3000 miles (old rule of thumb, I know some manufactures allow 5000 miles or more between oil changes now) after the engines are broken in (which happens BEFORE you buy the car off the lot).

When you and the boys rebuild an engine at home, in the garage, part of the break in procedure is that you have to do an oil change almost right after you turn on the engine for the first time.

Then you do another oil change after 200 miles.

Then you do one after 500 miles.

(Or something like that)

Because as the engine BREAKS IN, you have to do frequent oil changes to get rid of the metal shavings produced by freshly machined parts working together again.

After doing all of that, THEN you can return to the regular maintenance schedule of 3000 miles or whatever the manufacturer suggests.

Back to watches now.

Do we have to do that with watches during the “break in” period?

WE DONT.

Our little handy dandy Rolex manual doesn’t say “during the break in period, the watch will require a service after you wear it for a month. Then after 6 months. Then after a year. After all of those frequent services, the engine is broken in, then you can return to the suggested service interval of 10 years”


That is what I meant. Maybe I worded it incorrectly.

But I meant that we don’t have super reduced service intervals (oil changes if you want to call them that) to allow the movement to “break in” like when an engine is rebuilt by you and the boys at home.

Right when you receive the watch, you are on the normal service schedule, kind of like when you receive a brand new car and don’t have to do the 200 mile oil change followed by the 500 mile oil change and blah blah blah

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by jvb.nc

there are definitely oil changes for watches. just not every 5,000 miles.

Please allow me to explain myself.

I know what happens with a service, not all the details as I am no watchmaker, and will not pretend that I am one, but I’ve seen videos where watchmakers take the movement apart, put it in a machine to clean every part, replace the main spring and other parts if needed, apply oil very carefully and put it all back together.

What I meant is this....

Cars are supposed to have an oil change every 3000 miles (old rule of thumb, I know some manufactures allow 5000 miles or more between oil changes now) after the engines are broken in (which happens BEFORE you buy the car off the lot).

When you and the boys rebuild an engine at home, in the garage, part of the break in procedure is that you have to do an oil change almost right after you turn on the engine for the first time.

Then you do another oil change after 200 miles.

Then you do one after 500 miles.

(Or something like that)

Because as the engine BREAKS IN, you have to do frequent oil changes to get rid of the metal shavings produced by freshly machined parts working together again.

After doing all of that, THEN you can return to the regular maintenance schedule of 3000 miles or whatever the manufacturer suggests.

Back to watches now.

Do we have to do that with watches during the “break in” period?

WE DONT.

Our little handy dandy Rolex manual doesn’t say “during the break in period, the watch will require a service after you wear it for a month. Then after 6 months. Then after a year. After all of those frequent services, the engine is broken in, then you can return to the suggested service interval of 10 years”

That is what I meant. Maybe I worded it incorrectly.

But I meant that we don’t have super reduced service intervals (oil changes if you want to call them that) to allow the movement to “break in” like when an engine is rebuilt by you and the boys at home.

Right when you receive the watch, you are on the normal service schedule, kind of like when you receive a brand new car and don’t have to do the 200 mile oil change followed by the 500 mile oil change and blah blah blah

[seasubmariner]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

I have read on this forum that the watches can take months to break in.

To be honest though, I don’t understand why they need to be broke in, or what happens so that they are broke in.

For example, with engines, I think the piston rings have to expand to get the best seal possible for good compression (something like that) and this can be achieved by driving the car a certain way after an engine rebuild.

Also, when the parts of an engine start moving, a lot of tiny retail shavings are produced as parts kinda break in with all the rubbing against each other and all. Then, you have to do oil changes often to get rid of the shavings, because shavings floating in your oil aren’t good for the engine.

So how does a watch movement break in after it is in the owners hands?

Are shavings also produced? I wouldn’t think so, because we don’t do oil changes on watches.

However!

About a year and a half ago, when I bought my DJ36, it lost 1.2 seconds a day?

After testing it for the whole month of January, I found it is now gaining .5 seconds a day (or something super close to .5, forgot the actual number to be honest)

So, who knows!?

Maybe @Searchart can help us with this one

Ofcourse shavings are produced at watch movement... Havent you seen a live overhaul ever?

You can see the metal shavings even on parts but only with a loop. With naked eye it will be hard to see.

The watch movement seems like a transmission of a car rather than the engine...There is no piston and the system doesnt work with combustion,.

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Precisely.
Some machines can take up to three or more oil changes before an epuilibrium and steady wear trends are achieved.
Used oil analysis proves this all the time.

Thank you! That is what I meant above when I said that watches don’t have oil changes.

I was referring specifically to the very frequent oil changes one has to do after rebuilding an engine, in order to “break it in.”

Imagine that our watches took a couple of services until they broke in?

They DONT.

That is the difference that I was trying to highlight between an engine break in and a watch movement break in.

[schoolboy]

Has anybody noticed that?

When you pick up a car from the dealership, brand new, the engine has already been broken in and you don’t have to worry about it. There is no break in AFTER you buy the car.

However, before you bought the car, oil changes had to be done to break in the engine.

When you buy a watch, there is a bit of a break in period as we have observed with the performance of our watches...

Which to me means that the watches aren’t fully broken in when they meet the customer (as opposed to car engines)

So why don’t we have to do a couple of quick services to break in the movement?

(Again, Ford does this before the brand new car gets to the customer)

Rolex doesn’t recommend that we do a service over a short period of time (200 miles on an engine during break in period) then one at a longer period of time (500 miles on an engine during break in time), before finally going to a regular service schedule (every 3000 miles or 5000 miles)

That is a subtle, but huge difference between our watch movement breaking in and am engine breaking in

[padi56]

Originally Posted by 2x4

In May I picked a new DJ41. Supposed to have a 70 hour reserve. I wear it every day, Monday through Friday, take it off Friday evening, but it would never make it all the way to Monday. Never really bothered but after maybe a month or so, it makes all the way through.
Same way with my wife’s DJ.

Wearing a watch does not wind any watch its wrist activity that winds the watch.And the 32 series movements if stopped should be manually wound up before wearing around 60 full crown turns clockwise only.

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

Ofcourse shavings are produced at watch movement... Havent you seen a live overhaul ever?

You can see the metal shavings even on parts but only with a loop. With naked eye it will be hard to see.

The watch movement seems like a transmission of a car rather than the engine...There is no piston and the system doesnt work with combustion,.

No I’ve never seen a watch over haul live, EVER.

But I’ve helped rebuild three engines in my life. Also, I’ve never rebuilt a transmission and don’t know how transmissions are broken in.

Please see posts #39 and #40 where I try to explain myself in more detail as a reply to some of the condescending responses that I’ve received after my initial post.

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by directioneng

The precision of my modern Rolex movements have changed slightly over the years but not by enough to say they have ‘broken in’.

Maybe you’re right.

We should call it “precision settling time” or something else instead of “break in time.”

Again, because we don’t have to perform several movement services so that the movement breaks in (as we have to do with an engine so that it breaks in)

[seasubmariner]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

No I’ve never seen a watch over haul live, EVER.

But I’ve helped rebuild three engines in my life. Also, I’ve never rebuilt a transmission and don’t know how transmissions are broken in.

Please see posts #39 and #40 where I try to explain myself in more detail as a reply to some of the condescending responses that I’ve received after my initial post.

I got the point now mate. Watches are different...If Rolex doesnt recommend frequent services it is also a sign that you should wear it until it stops. Because in most cases there will not be any further damage, unlike engine or transmission of a car...

I have watched the whole process of the overhaul. I also have watched the revision of the transmission (manual)..

At both all parts are taken apart, cleaned and inspected for wear...

My second car which I never drive, I had a transmission bearing failing and causing shake and noise while driving which happened 3 months ago..The car is immeculate and very well kept. It is 2006 (14 years old) have only 23000 miles on the clock and Im the first owner... I still chaged the transmission / transfer case and differential fluids with the recommended ones every 5 years since new.....When the transmission was opened I was worrying but it was so clean inside without much shavings. The condition of the transmission oil which was lastly changed in 2013 (as a preventative maintenance) was perfect. So we did not understand why the bearing failed...As a result, I got all bearings all seals, clutch set and the oil changed again once the transmission was opened...And it was perfect afterwards....Sometimes things happen for no reason at mechanics...

The logic of transmission bearings is exactly the same as the bearings of some Rolex rotor axles....And, there is no need a break in as they may last only 1 year or 100 years...

The only difference is the life and priority of the oil...An engine oil lasts 12 months...Transmission oil lasts 5 years...Watch oil lasts for good if it doesnt get dry...
And even running dry will not ruin a watch immediately it will take years and years...But it only takes a few seconds to ruin your engine or transmission when running with no oil...

Thats why it is better not to touch a working watch :)

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

I got the point now mate. Watches are different...If Rolex doesnt recommend frequent services it is also a sign that you should wear it until it stops. Because in most cases there will not be any further damage, unlike engine or transmission of a car...

I have watched the whole process of the overhaul. I also have watched the revision of the transmission (manual)..

At both all parts are taken apart, cleaned and inspected for wear...

My second car which I never drive, I had a transmission bearing failing and causing shake and noise while driving which happened 3 months ago..The car is immeculate and very well kept. It is 2006 (14 years old) have only 23000 miles on the clock and Im the first owner... I still chaged the transmission / transfer case and differential fluids with the recommended ones every 5 years since new.....When the transmission was opened I was worrying but it was so clean inside without much shavings. The condition of the transmission oil which was lastly changed in 2013 (as a preventative maintenance) was perfect. So we did not understand why the bearing failed...As a result, I got all bearings all seals, clutch set and the oil changed again once the transmission was opened...And it was perfect afterwards....Sometimes things happen for no reason at mechanics...

The logic of transmission bearings is exactly the same as the bearings of some Rolex rotor axles....And, there is no need a break in as they may last only 1 year or 100 years...

The only difference is the life and priority of the oil...An engine oil lasts 12 months...Transmission oil lasts 5 years...Watch oil lasts for good if it doesnt get dry...
And even running dry will not ruin a watch immediately it will take years and years...But it only takes a few seconds to ruin your engine or transmission when running with no oil...

Thats why it is better not to touch a working watch :)

Oh okay, that makes sense now.

So I believe you in saying that watches are more like transmissions than engines then

[csaltphoto]

There certainly seems to be some kind of anecdotal evidence that there is a "break-in" period or something analogous. Enough members have mentioned it. When I got my almost unworn, but 10 year old sub back from service it was about +2.5/day. Now it's around +1/1.5/day depending on the week. There seems to be no real positional variation at all either.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

I got the point now mate. Watches are different...If Rolex doesnt recommend frequent services it is also a sign that you should wear it until it stops. Because in most cases there will not be any further damage, unlike engine or transmission of a car...

I have watched the whole process of the overhaul. I also have watched the revision of the transmission (manual)..

At both all parts are taken apart, cleaned and inspected for wear...

My second car which I never drive, I had a transmission bearing failing and causing shake and noise while driving which happened 3 months ago..The car is immeculate and very well kept. It is 2006 (14 years old) have only 23000 miles on the clock and Im the first owner... I still chaged the transmission / transfer case and differential fluids with the recommended ones every 5 years since new.....When the transmission was opened I was worrying but it was so clean inside without much shavings. The condition of the transmission oil which was lastly changed in 2013 (as a preventative maintenance) was perfect. So we did not understand why the bearing failed...As a result, I got all bearings all seals, clutch set and the oil changed again once the transmission was opened...And it was perfect afterwards....Sometimes things happen for no reason at mechanics...

The logic of transmission bearings is exactly the same as the bearings of some Rolex rotor axles....And, there is no need a break in as they may last only 1 year or 100 years...

The only difference is the life and priority of the oil...An engine oil lasts 12 months...Transmission oil lasts 5 years...Watch oil lasts for good if it doesnt get dry...
And even running dry will not ruin a watch immediately it will take years and years...But it only takes a few seconds to ruin your engine or transmission when running with no oil...

Thats why it is better not to touch a working watch :)

Guys we are talking about the synthetic oil in a watch movement and the amount of oil needed to correctly lubricate is a extremely little amount hardly one tiny drop from say a eye dropper.Many things effect mechanical watches almost daily on the wrist such as gravity,mainspring-power-reserve,changes in temperatures,subtle changes in lubrication and friction,shocks on wrist when wearing,metal expansion and contraction,and so on.Some should remember there are 86400 seconds in a day and that the escapement of a mechanical watch in 24 hours pushes the gears 432,000 times and its truly a mechanical marvel.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

I got the point now mate. Watches are different...If Rolex doesnt recommend frequent services it is also a sign that you should wear it until it stops. Because in most cases there will not be any further damage, unlike engine or transmission of a car...

I have watched the whole process of the overhaul. I also have watched the revision of the transmission (manual)..

At both all parts are taken apart, cleaned and inspected for wear...

My second car which I never drive, I had a transmission bearing failing and causing shake and noise while driving which happened 3 months ago..The car is immeculate and very well kept. It is 2006 (14 years old) have only 23000 miles on the clock and Im the first owner... I still chaged the transmission / transfer case and differential fluids with the recommended ones every 5 years since new.....When the transmission was opened I was worrying but it was so clean inside without much shavings. The condition of the transmission oil which was lastly changed in 2013 (as a preventative maintenance) was perfect. So we did not understand why the bearing failed...As a result, I got all bearings all seals, clutch set and the oil changed again once the transmission was opened...And it was perfect afterwards....Sometimes things happen for no reason at mechanics...

The logic of transmission bearings is exactly the same as the bearings of some Rolex rotor axles....And, there is no need a break in as they may last only 1 year or 100 years...

The only difference is the life and priority of the oil...An engine oil lasts 12 months...Transmission oil lasts 5 years...Watch oil lasts for good if it doesnt get dry...
And even running dry will not ruin a watch immediately it will take years and years...But it only takes a few seconds to ruin your engine or transmission when running with no oil...

Thats why it is better not to touch a working watch :)

Over time movement parts in a watch wear. The very fine metal particles are eventually mixed into the oils of the movement. Which dirties the oils and makes them less effective for lubrication. Which is why it is important to have a watch movement serviced. All parts are cleaned which removes the tiny metal shavings from wear and the movement is lubricated with new clean oil. I personally would not go more than 8-10 years without a movement service and new seals to keep the watch water resistant.

[seasubmariner]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

Oh okay, that makes sense now.

So I believe you in saying that watches are more like transmissions than engines then

Yup you have the mainspring clutch, escapement, gear train and bearings similar at least :)

[seasubmariner]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Over time movement parts in a watch wear. The very fine metal particles are eventually mixed into the oils of the movement. Which dirties the oils and makes them less effective for lubrication. Which is why it is important to have a watch movement serviced. All parts are cleaned which removes the tiny metal shavings from wear and the movement is lubricated with new clean oil. I personally would not go more than 8-10 years without a movement service and new seals to keep the watch water resistant.

There is no argument at that...But the question is if you have a discontinued piece (lets say GMT II Coke) would you risk it sending to RSC where the bezel instert, dial, rivet, crystal or even the case could be damaged during servicing... Bent rivet, scratched coke bezel, damaged dial or lumes, a chip on clasp or any other part...Which would make you hate your watch.

And, even RSC might not be able to supply those parts on those discontinued models.

You are 100% right, but I do not trust RSC, independent or any people, and unfortunately I am not a watchmaker with unlimited Rolex parts in stock, so I prefer not to touch a working watch.

The other point is that considering that there are 30-40 years old unopened and working watches even on this forum, and my age (38)...I probably wont living that long to see worn parts at the movement...Even if I had kids (dont have) and would pass my watch to the next generation...Trust me the world is changing and I do not believe that there will be any watchmaker existed in the future..So who will service your mechanical watch in the future. Probably all mechanical wathes will go to trash in the future in anyway...So lets enjoy perfections without a human damage while we can...

[schoolboy]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

Yup you have the mainspring clutch, escapement, gear train and bearings similar at least :)

Oh that’s true hahaha

Specially the gears part

[padi56]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

Yup you have the mainspring clutch, escapement, gear train and bearings similar at least :)

There is no mainspring clutch all that happens when its fully wound it just slips in the spring-barrel.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

Oh okay, that makes sense now.

So I believe you in saying that watches are more like transmissions than engines then

A watch movement is a integral combination of engine and transmission.
The power and torque curves are more linea and with a more gentle application that's essentially governed by the critical function of the Balance assembly.
Everything down stream of the escapement places virtually no load on the internals unlike a car where everything is loaded from the tyres right back up through the drivetrain depending upon all the variables a car can encounter.
Essentially the mechanical involved in the powertrain in a car with an ICE whether it is NA or forced induction has a much harder time of it in every respect.
Of course, the extra power drain on a Chronograph when it is running will still reduce the effective power reserve.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by padi56

There is no mainspring clutch all that happens when its fully wound it just slips in the spring-barrel.

This.
It effectively works like a mechanism to limit stored power.
In the same way one cannot overfill the fuel tank in a car.
When it's full, it's full.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

Oh that’s true hahaha

Specially the gears part

To be clear, the nature of the gears are for the most part, the most efficient type.
They're Spur gears which are uncommon in a car due to the fact that they're inherently very noisy and are usually only found on the reverse gear idler in a manual transmission which only comes into play when reverse is actually selected.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by seasubmariner

There is no argument at that...But the question is if you have a discontinued piece (lets say GMT II Coke) would you risk it sending to RSC where the bezel instert, dial, rivet, crystal or even the case could be damaged during servicing... Bent rivet, scratched coke bezel, damaged dial or lumes, a chip on clasp or any other part...Which would make you hate your watch.

And, even RSC might not be able to supply those parts on those discontinued models.

You are 100% right, but I do not trust RSC, independent or any people, and unfortunately I am not a watchmaker with unlimited Rolex parts in stock, so I prefer not to touch a working watch.

The other point is that considering that there are 30-40 years old unopened and working watches even on this forum, and my age (38)...I probably wont living that long to see worn parts at the movement...Even if I had kids (dont have) and would pass my watch to the next generation...Trust me the world is changing and I do not believe that there will be any watchmaker existed in the future..So who will service your mechanical watch in the future. Probably all mechanical wathes will go to trash in the future in anyway...So lets enjoy perfections without a human damage while we can...

Worn parts are routinely replaced at a RSC service for the benefit of the longevity and functionality of the movement. You never get to know about it.
I put it to you, the 30 year figure you hold out there is for the most part fantasy. Most watches which are worn daily will have stopped working well before then or been such poor timekeepers the owner would've long moved on to another source of the time. 40 years functioning properly is beyond belief.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by padi56

Guys we are talking about the synthetic oil in a watch movement and the amount of oil needed to correctly lubricate is a extremely little amount hardly one tiny drop from say a eye dropper.Many things effect mechanical watches almost daily on the wrist such as gravity,mainspring-power-reserve,changes in temperatures,subtle changes in lubrication and friction,shocks on wrist when wearing,metal expansion and contraction,and so on.Some should remember there are 86400 seconds in a day and that the escapement of a mechanical watch in 24 hours pushes the gears 432,000 times and its truly a mechanical marvel.

Yes.
Applied with what is essentially a microscopic eyedropper as the quantities are so small.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by schoolboy

Oh okay, that makes sense now.

So I believe you in saying that watches are more like transmissions than engines then

In these modern times, a Transmission and or Differential is deemed to be "filled for life" under normal operating conditions.
This is also a fallacy and is designed to give the impression of reduced servicing requirements thereby equating to reduced running costs.
The reality is different.
For example I have changed the oil in my "filled for life" manual transmission after the first 21,000 kms. This was due to experiencing some increasing gear roll-over niose at idle when hot and some increased gear whine in the lower gears.
In this instance, a Used oil analysis showed the factory fill oil had apparently sheared down to 24 cst @ 40c from what theoretically ought to have been 34 cst @ 40c(according to a Virgin oil analysis of the service refill oil).

In summary, all oils ultimately degrade for one reason or another or for a combination of reasons.
Even if they're top shelf synthetics.

Further.
I have to ask, what is deemed to be the definition of "filled for life"????

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Worn parts are routinely replaced at a RSC service for the benefit of the longevity and functionality of the movement. You never get to know about it.
I put it to you, the 30 year figure you hold out there is for the most part fantasy. Most watches which are worn daily will have stopped working well before then or been such poor timekeepers the owner would've long moved on to another source of the time. 40 years functioning properly is beyond belief.

Most mainsprings (made of steel that eventually fatigues) will eventually break long, long before 30 years rendering the movement virtually worthless without a full movement overhaul. Highly doubt the rotor axle and it's pivots would make it that long either.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by Dirt

In these modern times, a Transmission and or Differential is deemed to be "filled for life" under normal operating conditions.
This is also a fallacy and is designed to give the impression of reduced servicing requirements thereby equating to reduced running costs.
The reality is different.
For example I have changed the oil in my "filled for life" manual transmission after the first 21,000 kms. This was due to experiencing some increasing gear roll-over niose at idle when hot and some increased gear whine in the lower gears.
In this instance, a Used oil analysis showed the factory fill oil had apparently sheared down to 24 cst @ 40c from what theoretically ought to have been 34 cst @ 40c(according to a Virgin oil analysis of the service refill oil).

In summary, all oils ultimately degrade for one reason or another or for a combination of reasons.
Even if they're top shelf synthetics.

Further.
I have to ask, what is deemed to be the definition of "filled for life"????

"Filled for life" means drive it until it blows up. Then replace the transmission with a new one and repeat the process.