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Old 26 May 2020, 10:31 PM   #31
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And as a result I no longer even care to watch so called sports any longer. Because it's no longer sport. For reasons such as this I hold it in no more regard than I do a reality TV show. I'm no longer entertained.
I wouldn’t go that far. Though it’s in the back of your mind that these athletes are “enhanced,” they are still athletes. If you think the average Joe is going to take EPO and can go ride the Tour or hit 70 home runs, it’s not gonna happen.
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Old 26 May 2020, 10:38 PM   #32
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I by chance stumbled onto it here in Australia and managed to watch 2/3 of it. There was a comment made that I have always contended, if EPO or other performance enhancing drugs give up to 10% gain in endurance and power sports, then if we assume all these sports have a natural bell curve of performance, then the chances that anyone clean competing in the top 1,000's of sports could actually win.
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Old 26 May 2020, 10:49 PM   #33
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No way. I know others have and currently are doping but that does not make it better. His behavior towards the sport and others was disgraceful. My opinion applies to every cheat that got caught.
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Old 27 May 2020, 01:32 AM   #34
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And as a result I no longer even care to watch so called sports any longer. Because it's no longer sport. For reasons such as this I hold it in no more regard than I do a reality TV show. I'm no longer entertained.
What's great about this is how it affects everyone down to even the domestic levels. The value of the liquids LA shot into his veins during a weekend of The Tour is likely more than our entire year's budget, and a large part of that is due to the reputation earned by LA + Postal, Tyler, Floyd, et al, and every master's racer that decided he had low T, but didn't bother filling out a TUE prior to peeing in a cup. NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA...there's too much money at risk for doping violations to cripple the sport.
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Old 27 May 2020, 01:49 AM   #35
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He got caught.
That's the only difference between him and any other pro athlete.
No. I don't care about the cheating as pretty much everyone around him was as well. What I care about is how he destroyed anyone who dared to tell the truth. He is a despicable human being (IMO) for that reason alone.
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Old 27 May 2020, 01:58 AM   #36
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I’m more excited about the Bruce Lee 30 for 30, Be Water.

X2 I’m excited for that one as well
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Old 27 May 2020, 02:04 AM   #37
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What's great about this is how it affects everyone down to even the domestic levels. The value of the liquids LA shot into his veins during a weekend of The Tour is likely more than our entire year's budget, and a large part of that is due to the reputation earned by LA + Postal, Tyler, Floyd, et al, and every master's racer that decided he had low T, but didn't bother filling out a TUE prior to peeing in a cup. NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA...there's too much money at risk for doping violations to cripple the sport.
I saw a youtube video on how WADA does their drug testing. It's basically set where the limit to trigger a positive result is set extremely high so as long as you don't go crazy and trigger a positive result, you can do whatever you want.

It's sort of a wink and a nod that everyone is going to be using something but don't be so blatant that they have to suspend you.
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Old 27 May 2020, 02:17 AM   #38
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Anything associated with Armstrong gets a hard pass from me. Not worth my time.

If you’re interested in a much more compelling ESPN 30 for 30, check out the one that tells Greg LeMond’s story. Incredible story of dedication, grit, betrayal, victory and vindication. It also exposes Bernard Hinault for the asshat that he is.
I just watched the rebroadcast of it last night, I agree much more compelling than the Armstrong episode.
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Old 27 May 2020, 04:03 AM   #39
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Unfortunately, most if not all the cycling greats and not so greats of the last 30-40 years at least were using drugs. Basso, Pantani, Ullrich, Armstrong, Valverde, etc. How about Indurain? 6'2 guy weighing 180 pounds rides 6 TDFs and does nothing then when EPO takes over the sport he suddenly wins 5 in a row while using known nefarious doctors. What a coincidence. Armstrong was different only in the way he bullied the sport and those he considered threats. His behavior was dispicable but his drug use was no worse than any of the guys many still look up to as heroes.
Just to be clear, Greg LeMond didn’t dope. He’s the only American TdF Champion. In fact he won it three times. He even won when his own team was against him winning. At one point during the race his wife and father had buy and supply his own food and water bottles because his team was rumored to be trying to make him sick, so that his fading teammate, Hinault, could win. Again, I highly recommend the ESPN 30 For 30 called “Slaying the Badger”, which is the story behind LeMond’s rise to the top of cycling.
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Old 27 May 2020, 04:44 AM   #40
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Just to be clear, Greg LeMond didn’t dope..
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Old 27 May 2020, 05:16 AM   #41
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Just to be clear, Greg LeMond didn’t dope.
Wouldn’t bet my life on that. My line of thinking is this. If he beat beat guys we know were doping, we can deduce one of two things: Either he was doping also OR doping doesn’t enhance performance as much as we think it does (i.e. not enough to propel a doped athlete past him). BTW, I really appreciate Lemond’s contributions to the sport outside of just pedaling. He really understood bicycles themselves and designed some of the best geometries we’ve ever seen.
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Old 27 May 2020, 06:49 AM   #42
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I enjoyed the first episode. I worked in the bike industry around the time a lot of this was happening and ran a World Cup level mtn bike team. Seeing somebody race clean and continually lose to people you suspect are dirty is gut wrenching. I thoroughly hate that Lance was cheating, but at the same time, I'm more upset it has come down to having to decide if you want to cheat or throw away your career. It is a beautiful sport that shouldn't have a constant black cloud over it. Lance did more for the sport than any other person, both good and probably bad. I really lost a lot of respect for all the other cheaters that are fine with it until the moment they get busted and then start pointing fingers. Lance didn't ruin their lives, they chose their own paths.
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Old 27 May 2020, 08:12 AM   #43
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I enjoyed the first episode. I worked in the bike industry around the time a lot of this was happening and ran a World Cup level mtn bike team. Seeing somebody race clean and continually lose to people you suspect are dirty is gut wrenching. I thoroughly hate that Lance was cheating, but at the same time, I'm more upset it has come down to having to decide if you want to cheat or throw away your career. It is a beautiful sport that shouldn't have a constant black cloud over it. Lance did more for the sport than any other person, both good and probably bad. I really lost a lot of respect for all the other cheaters that are fine with it until the moment they get busted and then start pointing fingers. Lance didn't ruin their lives, they chose their own paths.
Nobody chose their own path to have Lance try and destroy them when they stepped forward and told the truth.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...strong/267184/
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Old 27 May 2020, 08:40 AM   #44
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Nobody chose their own path to have Lance try and destroy them when they stepped forward and told the truth.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...strong/267184/
Betsy Andreu wasn’t making all of that noise when her husband was benefiting from doping. Tyler Hamilton, after his “epiphany”, would go on to join Rock Racing, a team stacked head to toe with guys who’d been popped for doping (multiple times each).....and he got caught doping again! The truth is not a tool you use when it suits you. When you tell the truth, you’ve got to do it for the right reasons.
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Old 27 May 2020, 09:43 AM   #45
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Betsy Andreu wasn’t making all of that noise when her husband was benefiting from doping. Tyler Hamilton, after his “epiphany”, would go on to join Rock Racing, a team stacked head to toe with guys who’d been popped for doping (multiple times each).....and he got caught doping again! The truth is not a tool you use when it suits you. When you tell the truth, you’ve got to do it for the right reasons.
So? They admitted what they did, and Lance defamed them and kept the lie going as long as he could rake in the $$. He went out of his way to destroy people (unlike all the others mentioned). If you are waiting for a truth teller with a pristine past you will be waiting a long time. And none of their misdeeds in the past excuse what he did.

Amazing athlete and if everyone was clean he would have won on a level playing field. Still a POS human being.
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Old 27 May 2020, 09:52 AM   #46
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So? They admitted what they did, and Lance defamed them and kept the lie going as long as he could rake in the $$. He went out of his way to destroy people (unlike all the others mentioned). If you are waiting for a truth teller with a pristine past you will be waiting a long time. And none of their misdeeds in the past excuse what he did.

Amazing athlete and if everyone was clean he would have won on a level playing field. Still a POS human being.
I guess I‘m looking for the truth tellers who have something to lose by telling said truth. Please, point one out to me. Hamilton’s misdeeds would come before AND AFTER his epiphany for the “good of the sport.” And again, I‘ve met the man, I do not deny Armstrong’s POS character.
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Old 27 May 2020, 10:17 AM   #47
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Just to be clear, Greg LeMond didn’t dope. He’s the only American TdF Champion. In fact he won it three times. He even won when his own team was against him winning. At one point during the race his wife and father had buy and supply his own food and water bottles because his team was rumored to be trying to make him sick, so that his fading teammate, Hinault, could win. Again, I highly recommend the ESPN 30 For 30 called “Slaying the Badger”, which is the story behind LeMond’s rise to the top of cycling.

one of the best sport documentaries. LeMond is a class act.

LA is a POS not just because he doped again and again and again, but what he did to others around. Haven’t met and wouldn’t want to meet him.
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Old 27 May 2020, 10:59 AM   #48
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Betsy Andreu wasn’t making all of that noise when her husband was benefiting from doping. Tyler Hamilton, after his “epiphany”, would go on to join Rock Racing, a team stacked head to toe with guys who’d been popped for doping (multiple times each).....and he got caught doping again! The truth is not a tool you use when it suits you. When you tell the truth, you’ve got to do it for the right reasons.
Agreed!
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Old 27 May 2020, 11:15 AM   #49
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I guess I‘m looking for the truth tellers who have something to lose by telling said truth.
They’ve already spoken. No one paid attention because they are not, never were, nor could have ever been world tour. They were deemed disgruntled losers by governing bodies and pushed aside.

PS -

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...k-racing-2008/

Fun read. Especially if you’re paying attention to domestic racing. Double especially if you think Leogrande is a bottom feeder.
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Old 27 May 2020, 11:58 AM   #50
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They’ve already spoken. No one paid attention because they are not, never were, nor could have ever been world tour. They were deemed disgruntled losers by governing bodies and pushed aside.

PS -

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...k-racing-2008/

Fun read. Especially if you’re paying attention to domestic racing. Double especially if you think Leogrande is a bottom feeder.
I’m familiar with all of those goings on with Rock Racing. All of that was based right here in Southern California. Jeremiah Wiscovitch’s dad is an acquaintance of mine who puts on the San Dimas Stage race. I’ve housed teams racing SDSR for many years. Rasaan Bahaati approached me last year about a development program he and Methods to Winning is putting together. He showed interest in my son, who raced in the aforementioned San Dimas Stage Race. Those two guys were alright with me, but I’ve got nothing positive to say about the rest of that squad, including Michael Ball. Monster Media came next with the cast of amateur dopers. I’ve got first hand stories about those guys.
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Old 27 May 2020, 02:41 PM   #51
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I wouldn’t go that far. Though it’s in the back of your mind that these athletes are “enhanced,” they are still athletes. If you think the average Joe is going to take EPO and can go ride the Tour or hit 70 home runs, it’s not gonna happen.
If it didn't enhance Bonds' performance then why did he do it? He was statistically better once he started taking drugs wasn't he? The same goes for Lance as well.

It's still cheating isn't it? Why are they so special if they have to cheat? If this is a game then I want to see it where it says it's legal according to the rules. Sorry, I guess I'm old fashioned for believing that sportsmanship and following the rules have anything to do with sports. Gee, I can't wait to watch the team that cheats the best. Not for me.

How about the idea of making certain drugs legal for competition? Lets just acknowledge that drugs are used so that all of the cheaters can now be legal and certain drugs can be used. Don't you think if they were legal and according to the rules someone would discover the latest illegal drug that does it one better?

What a joke.

As far as I am concerned it's pretty simple. It's cheating and as far as I am concerned I have no interest in being part of the crowd that sanctions that and enables that type of behavior.

Whether you have to reach some level or have some degree of talent at some level to actualy enjoy the benefits of the cheat or not it's still cheating unless it's in the rules. Yet another simple minded old fashioned concept.

Gee son, if you grow up to be smart enough to cheat the system then you too can be richer than everyone, better than everyone, and admired by everyone because your smart and cleaver enough to cheat better than anyone else. I don't ever remember my Dad telling me that and I never ever would tell my son that either. I know that's just to simple minded and old fashioned for some, but so be it. If integrity is old fashioned, then I guess I'll just strive be old fashioned. I'm not perfect but Lance Armstrong aint my son so I have that at least going for me. I guess that makes me poorer but I can still look myself in the mirror.
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Old 27 May 2020, 03:20 PM   #52
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If it didn't enhance Bonds' performance then why did he do it? He was statistically better once he started taking drugs wasn't he? The same goes for Lance as well.

It's still cheating isn't it? Why are they so special if they have to cheat? If this is a game then I want to see it where it says it's legal according to the rules. Sorry, I guess I'm old fashioned for believing that sportsmanship and following the rules have anything to do with sports. Gee, I can't wait to watch the team that cheats the best. Not for me.

How about the idea of making certain drugs legal for competition? Lets just acknowledge that drugs are used so that all of the cheaters can now be legal and certain drugs can be used. Don't you think if they were legal and according to the rules someone would discover the latest illegal drug that does it one better?

What a joke.

As far as I am concerned it's pretty simple. It's cheating and as far as I am concerned I have no interest in being part of the crowd that sanctions that and enables that type of behavior.

Whether you have to reach some level or have some degree of talent at some level to actual enjoy the benefits of the cheat or not it's still cheating unless it's in the rules. Yet another simple minded old fashioned concept.

Gee son, if you grow up to be smart enough to cheat the system then you too can be richer than everyone, better than everyone, and admired by everyone because your smart and cleaver enough to cheat better than anyone else. I don't ever remember my Dad telling me that and I never ever would tell my son that either. I know that's just to simple minded and old fashioned for some, but so be it. If integrity is old fashioned, then I guess I'll just strive be old fashioned. I'm not perfect but Lance Armstrong aint my son so I have that at least going for me. I guess that makes me poorer but I can still look myself in the mirror.
I don't disagree. Yes, they cheated. Yes, it's wrong. I never said it didn't enhance their performance, I was simply stating that they are still athletes, while you compared them to actors. In fact, anyone who knows anything about baseball knows that Barry Bonds was going to be a Hall of Fame inductee based on his performance before the doping started. Then he threw it all away to hit some home runs. Monumental, and despicable mistake.
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Old 27 May 2020, 06:56 PM   #53
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Only heard..Not really glanced at it yet
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Old 27 May 2020, 06:58 PM   #54
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I’d like to get past the cheating based on what he did for cancer research and what he legitimately went through himself. Then he opens his mouth. He was interviewed on CNBC a year, maybe two years ago. They asked him about the cheating, ruining others lives, the whole thing, and he was just a self righteous prick about it all.
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Old 27 May 2020, 07:49 PM   #55
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the level Lance was at NO ONE is racing all natural that includeds nfl to pga all pro sports
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Old 27 May 2020, 09:44 PM   #56
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I don't disagree. Yes, they cheated. Yes, it's wrong. I never said it didn't enhance their performance, I was simply stating that they are still athletes, while you compared them to actors. In fact, anyone who knows anything about baseball knows that Barry Bonds was going to be a Hall of Fame inductee based on his performance before the doping started. Then he threw it all away to hit some home runs. Monumental, and despicable mistake.
I understand, but for many reasons I can't and won't condone it. Actually the Reality TV Show comment in this case at least for me is more in regards to what a S*** Show sports have become.

The reference typically is that this started for Bonds at the time McGwire and Sosa became famous. Whether it's the case he couldn't stand some one out shinning him or not the man has no integrity. Doesn't sound like he has any remorse and frankly I don't care at this point. I'm over sport, it's no longer sports when the competitors can do nothing more than cheat the system regardless of their motivation. I have a problem rooting for cheaters and frankly the cheaters are way to prevalent for me to give a D**n.

I think the comment that these guys should be allowed into the Hall of Fame because everyone one was doing it at the time is also ridiculous. They cheated, some of them got caught and some of them like Bonds just grew a BIGGER HEAD. Let them keep their money, but there should be consequences so let history judge them for what they really are. They didn't play by the rules so let's not bend and contort the rules to such a point there is no incentive for people to do the right thing. Stop rewarding people for doing the wrong thing.
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Old 27 May 2020, 10:03 PM   #57
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I’d like to get past the cheating based on what he did for cancer research and what he legitimately went through himself. Then he opens his mouth. He was interviewed on CNBC a year, maybe two years ago. They asked him about the cheating, ruining others lives, the whole thing, and he was just a self righteous prick about it all.
If anyone has any thoughts of forgiving this dude I'd bet anything that they wouldn't if they just happened to be one of those who had their life and their lively hood affected by Armstrong's actions. I could care less if he's a prick. Michael Jordon was considered a prick, but I'm still a big Jordan fan.
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Old 27 May 2020, 10:35 PM   #58
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I think the comment that these guys should be allowed into the Hall of Fame because everyone one was doing it at the time is also ridiculous. They cheated, some of them got caught and some of them like Bonds just grew a BIGGER HEAD. Let them keep their money, but there should be consequences so let history judge them for what they really are. They didn't play by the rules so let's not bend and contort the rules to such a point there is no incentive for people to do the right thing. Stop rewarding people for doing the wrong thing.
Again, I didn’t see that anyone made such a comment. If I did hear it, again, I'd agree with you. Of course they don’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Absolutely not. Not even with an “asterisk.” I don’t know if this is against forum rules or not, but I’ll put it out here and mods can decide: I am a black man, and as such, I DEPLORE Barry Bonds for cheating Henry Aaron out of his title in the record books. Aaron defied death threats and went on to achieve what he did, simply to be topped by a cheat. Supreme disrespect. Like I said, those who cheated should not even have their names uttered in Cooperstown.
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Old 27 May 2020, 11:47 PM   #59
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Monster Media came next with the cast of amateur dopers. I’ve got first hand stories about those guys.
I first ran into them in 2011, I think. Maybe 2010. Guy with face tats. Then I came across the rest of the squad. I knew all I needed to know.
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Old 28 May 2020, 12:20 AM   #60
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I watched some parts of part one and it didn't interest me much so I stopped.
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