Oliver and Clarke 1803 Honeycomb Frankenwatch

[baumare]

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

You are splitting hairs now. People sell old Rolex items all the time and yes some are even "open" papers that are purchased to complete sets. Selling the open documents isn't fraudulent however if the buyer chooses to fill in the papers they are the ones committing the fraudulent act.

You're correct, but you can't play the "I didn't know" card if you're in this hobby for some time...

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

So I only managed to find 3 out of 4 components within 5 minutes. What's your actual point & how does that relate to the OP's post?

As for the parts used by O&C appearing to be in "pretty top shape"... there's literally a gap between the bracelet & the case & zero movement pics. In addition to that, refer to this post from the List of vintage watch dealers thread:

"Very disappointing experience with Oliver and Clarke. Watch delivered with a caseback not sealed properly, completely wrong spring bars (one that would not even hold to the watch), and dial/movement assembly not holding properly to the case (dial moving when manipulating the crown). On top of that, a crack in the tritium of the hour hand, not verbally disclosed. Seller states it was visible on pictures which was not the case… Would not recommend this dealer."

That said, what gets me most is that you have on numerous occasions stated that the community has generally accepted these optimizations for so long that it has turned you off of the vintage market. So what is it going to be? Are you for Frankenwatches or not??

As a purist it drives me up the wall.

But as the practice is so common, you'd have to be naive to trust any vintage watch these days.

I've said it atleast once here, the amount of rare, unique, and pristine vintage watches to pop up on the market over the past 10 years is UN REAL!
Anyone who trusts the originality of their 50yr old watch based on a "Vintage dealers" opinion is going to be separated from their money plain and simple.

The phrase, "if you believe that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you." Comes to mind.

Most vintage dealers are grifters in my opinion. I never had to inflate the value of my goods to sell them, I brought to market and allowed the public to decide their value. I never did business behind closed doors. And always did my best to represent them as honestly as possible.

The way the market is set up, you have to bring premium pieces to market, sourcing the inventory needed to maintain a profitable business has driven dealers to make these watches. They wouldn't have anything to sell otherwise


You seem to think I'm a bad person for the role I've played, and I can handle that. I never intended to promote fraudulent activity and once I realized how dishonest this marketplace was I stepped away.

Being a vintage watch dealer was my dream. I had bought my first Rolex at 18(had been learning about them since 14) and had half a dozen by the time I was 21. I have had my hands on some of some of the rarest watches in the world that have sold for upwards of half a million when they reached auction. At some point the "honest finds" dried up and the heavy hitters in play got tucked away. Then fantasy pieces started to become the norm

I was networking with dealers and helping source watches for people and felt like a valued member of this community for a long time. Unfortunately, the amount of money involved these days has driven the market to where its at.

As a 28 yr old it blows my mind y'all are all out here doing business on Instagram DTC. Its no wonder so much sketchy crap is being passed off without question




Caveat emptor, only way to navigate the market these days.

Question everything.


PS:those endinks are always buggered. You can't wear a rivet bracelet without bending the center link at the springbar. That bracelet is about as good as one can expect to find.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by baumare

You're correct, but you can't play the "I didn't know" card if you're in this hobby for some time...

Blank papers were bought and sold regularly 10 years ago between people who wanted original ephemera with their watch.

I could've bought 70s Rolex paperwork all day long, vintage beat up aluminum inserts for $100/pop. This stuff shot up overnight.

Original B&P added 10-20% value when I started collecting. Ephemera(which is how unmarked papers were viewed) nowhere near that. Back in the day we "bought the watch"

At some point the market went to "buy the seller" and thats when everything went to hell imo. Once the market let the dealers decide what was acceptable things got dishonest real quick.


The fact that those papers brought $500 still blows my mind to this day as it is unfathomable to me that they would inflate the value of a watch that much. Had they been in English i would've kept them.

[asb396]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Blank papers were bought and sold regularly 10 years ago between people who wanted original ephemera with their watch.

I could've bought 70s Rolex paperwork all day long, vintage beat up aluminum inserts for $100/pop. This stuff shot up overnight.

Original B&P added 10-20% value when I started collecting. Ephemera(which is how unmarked papers were viewed) nowhere near that. Back in the day we "bought the watch"

At some point the market went to "buy the seller" and thats when everything went to hell imo. Once the market let the dealers decide what was acceptable things got dishonest real quick.


The fact that those papers brought $500 still blows my mind to this day as it is unfathomable to me that they would inflate the value of a watch that much. Had they been in English i would've kept them.

I think we all understand that you are not the problem... there are so many bad actors out there

[330ci]

Originally Posted by asb396

I think we all understand that you are not the problem... there are so many bad actors out there

Meh, they're not wrong. I could've cancelled the order when it brought $500 and thrown them away.

I chose not too.

I still question the decision.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Meh, they're not wrong. I could've cancelled the order when it brought $500 and thrown them away.

I chose not too.

I still question the decision.

So better to throw away items that someone could use to deceive others?
You did nothing wrong & if someone decided to fill in the papers and sell a watch for a premium for it then the fault ends up with the final buyer for putting value on something like that.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by baumare

You're correct, but you can't play the "I didn't know" card if you're in this hobby for some time...

Nobody is claiming I didn't know. The person is selling old Rolex/Tudor stuff and with that comes the fact that people are using these items to complete sets.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

So better to throw away items that someone could use to deceive others?
You did nothing wrong & if someone decided to fill in the papers and sell a watch for a premium for it then the fault ends up with the final buyer for putting value on something like that.

I will wait on God's judgement. But the fact that it happened 5 or so years ago and it still doesn't sit well with me; I'd say it was not a righteous decision.

I don't want to get a leg up in life if it means I have to lie, cheat or steal. To lose oneself in the pursuit of wealth is the greatest tragedy life has to offer in my opinion.

I do my best to own my mistakes. To err is human.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 330ci

I will wait on God's judgement. But the fact that it happened 5 or so years ago and it still doesn't sit well with me; I'd say it was not a righteous decision.

God's judgment ... c'mon its a piece of paper. Lets not let this hobby get into our heads like that.

WOULD YOU HAVE ANY RESERVATIONS IF IT WOULD HAVE SOLD FOR $50?
I think not so the price makes no difference. If someone wants to use Rolex/Tudor items to deceive buyers they will do it no matter what they paid. Next we wont sell boxes, booklets, hangtags or any other trinkets either because those can be used for elevating price also... where does it end?

[330ci]

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

God's judgment ... c'mon its a piece of paper. Lets not let this hobby get into our heads like that.

WOULD YOU HAVE ANY RESERVATIONS IF IT WOULD HAVE SOLD FOR $50?
I think not so the price makes no difference. If someone wants to use Rolex/Tudor items to deceive buyers they will do it no matter what they paid. Next we wont sell boxes, booklets, hangtags or any other trinkets either because those can be used for elevating price also... where does it end?

Fair point on the $50 comment, no I wouldn't have questioned it. That's about what I figured it would've been worth to someone honest.

At $500 the amount of honest uses quickly fades though. As a collector of vintage midsized watches. The paperwork sold for more than an entry level Tudor.(which is actually what I bought with the proceeds)

It comes down to turning a blind eye for me.

Personally I've just removed myself from the equation and let others do as they please. I do believe alot of this activity is unethical though and I don't want any part of it at this point. Too many other ways to make money that don't weigh on my conscious.

Too honest to be a margin dealer and too poor to be a volume dealer myself.


Nobody seems to be questioning the dealer who sold this watch that made an account here to respond to this thread though which does seem a bit strange to me. I'm just trying to bring awareness. I haven't sold a watch in years at this point. Much less implored these practices on stuff I sold.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Lindenlaz

Hi Guys,
This is Linden from Oliver and Clarke. I appreciate your passion about the watch, but I’d like to clear some stuff up. When I received the 1803 watch it had come in a case that in my opinion was overpolished and possessed an artificially retightened bracelet. To me that was unacceptable for a watch and dial of this prestige and quality. I changed it to this 1802 case because it was period correct and looked fantastic with the dial. As many of you know there is no way to guarantee any Day-Date dial came with the exact watch it is in. There is no guarantee that this dial came in that original 1803. It is generally acceptable to swap these parts as long as they are period correct.

Sincerely,
Linden

Appreciate you joined the debate, but I'm sorry, someone else needs to call you out. This practice of swapping parts/dials to try to create an allegedly more appealing vintage Rolex is appalling, IMHO. If there's nothing wrong with it, and many other dealers do it, why not disclose the details in your listing? Of course you wouldn't disclose it, because most people wouldn't buy a cobbled together watch with a story. Sure, nobody knows 100 percent if a dial originally came with a watch, unless it's from the original owner. But what you DID know is that you swapped dials and you didn't disclose it.

I'm been buying old Rolexes since the '80s and of course have come across dealers who are unethical and don't disclose all KNOWN details of a watch. But through proper research and reputation you can usually weed them out. There are still good dealers out there.

Thanks, OP, for posting this. Another dealer off my list.

Originally Posted by indianmachine

possibility vs certainty are two very different things. Is there some obligation for the seller to disclose if you know that parts have been swapped?

Yes, there is an obligation, or at least there should be.

[swaini3]

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

As a purist it drives me up the wall.

But as the practice is so common, you'd have to be naive to trust any vintage watch these days.

I've said it atleast once here, the amount of rare, unique, and pristine vintage watches to pop up on the market over the past 10 years is UN REAL!
Anyone who trusts the originality of their 50yr old watch based on a "Vintage dealers" opinion is going to be separated from their money plain and simple.

The phrase, "if you believe that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you." Comes to mind.

Most vintage dealers are grifters in my opinion. I never had to inflate the value of my goods to sell them, I brought to market and allowed the public to decide their value. I never did business behind closed doors. And always did my best to represent them as honestly as possible.

The way the market is set up, you have to bring premium pieces to market, sourcing the inventory needed to maintain a profitable business has driven dealers to make these watches. They wouldn't have anything to sell otherwise


You seem to think I'm a bad person for the role I've played, and I can handle that. I never intended to promote fraudulent activity and once I realized how dishonest this marketplace was I stepped away.

Being a vintage watch dealer was my dream. I had bought my first Rolex at 18(had been learning about them since 14) and had half a dozen by the time I was 21. I have had my hands on some of some of the rarest watches in the world that have sold for upwards of half a million when they reached auction. At some point the "honest finds" dried up and the heavy hitters in play got tucked away. Then fantasy pieces started to become the norm

I was networking with dealers and helping source watches for people and felt like a valued member of this community for a long time. Unfortunately, the amount of money involved these days has driven the market to where its at.

As a 28 yr old it blows my mind y'all are all out here doing business on Instagram DTC. Its no wonder so much sketchy crap is being passed off without question




Caveat emptor, only way to navigate the market these days.

Question everything.


PS:those endinks are always buggered. You can't wear a rivet bracelet without bending the center link at the springbar. That bracelet is about as good as one can expect to find.

Thank you for this response. I think it's safe to say that we're actually on the same page in terms of what we both want the vintage watch industry to be.

I also think it's no secret that I am new to this hobby whereas you are quite the veteran. That said I've only recently come to the conclusion that most dealers are super shady. So I apologise if I came out swinging. I am clearly still super disappointed by the realisation that I cannot fully emerge myself in this world without the fear of getting burnt!

And what you say about fantasy pieces becoming the norm is so true. It's just such a pity though as the watch world will only get smaller & smaller as a result.

Oh & thank you for the bit where it blows your mind as a 28 year old seeing people doing business on Instagram etc. It made me feel much younger than I am since I am 40 & the poor level of service I have received in general is driving me mental!! I mean it's the simple things... like response times to queries etc.

Like you said, caveat emptor... which is nearly impossible when you are from South Africa since most dealers probably just see Africa & pass as it's probably not worth their hassle.

Anyway, I've learnt quite a bit from our debate so thanks for that!

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by swish77

Appreciate you joined the debate, but I'm sorry, someone else needs to call you out. This practice of swapping parts/dials to try to create an allegedly more appealing vintage Rolex is appalling, IMHO. If there's nothing wrong with it, and many other dealers do it, why not disclose the details in your listing? Of course you wouldn't disclose it, because most people wouldn't buy a cobbled together watch with a story. Sure, nobody knows 100 percent if a dial originally came with a watch, unless it's from the original owner. But what you DID know is that you swapped dials and you didn't disclose it.

I'm been buying old Rolexes since the '80s and of course have come across dealers who are unethical and don't disclose all KNOWN details of a watch. But through proper research and reputation you can usually weed them out. There are still good dealers out there.

Thanks, OP, for posting this. Another dealer off my list.



Yes, there is an obligation, or at least there should be.

This sums everything up perfectly for me!! Thanks for this!!

It's just such a pity that there are so few guys out there like The Omega Enthusiast who is truly passionate about vintage watches whereas the rest only concern themselves with money.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

This sums everything up perfectly for me!! Thanks for this!!

It's just such a pity that there are so few guys out there like The Omega Enthusiast who is truly passionate about vintage watches whereas the rest only concern themselves with money.

Well, if you follow Instagram, some of them also seem to be concerned with cars and clothing as well. Oh ... and shoes.

[Juhuatai]

FWIW, I know many prominent dealers that do swap bezels and inserts out. Not sure about dials but definitely bezel inserts and don't disclose that in their listings.

[dhknola]

[QUOTE=swish77;12584287]Appreciate you joined the debate, but I'm sorry, someone else needs to call you out. This practice of swapping parts/dials to try to create an allegedly more appealing vintage Rolex is appalling, IMHO. If there's nothing wrong with it, and many other dealers do it, why not disclose the details in your listing? Of course you wouldn't disclose it, because most people wouldn't buy a cobbled together watch with a story. Sure, nobody knows 100 percent if a dial originally came with a watch, unless it's from the original owner. But what you DID know is that you swapped dials and you didn't disclose it.

I'm been buying old Rolexes since the '80s and of course have come across dealers who are unethical and don't disclose all KNOWN details of a watch. But through proper research and reputation you can usually weed them out. There are still good dealers out there.

Thanks, OP, for posting this. Another dealer off my list.

This is worth the call out Swish. The Tudor Sub I was talking to O&C about was in his estimation 'NOS' yet it had the wrong crystal for the sub. I don't think O&C is taken seriously among the serious vintage community, if anything it seems they are nuisance to the community by selling Franken-Watches.

[330ci]

[QUOTE=dhknola;12584361]

Originally Posted by swish77

Appreciate you joined the debate, but I'm sorry, someone else needs to call you out. This practice of swapping parts/dials to try to create an allegedly more appealing vintage Rolex is appalling, IMHO. If there's nothing wrong with it, and many other dealers do it, why not disclose the details in your listing? Of course you wouldn't disclose it, because most people wouldn't buy a cobbled together watch with a story. Sure, nobody knows 100 percent if a dial originally came with a watch, unless it's from the original owner. But what you DID know is that you swapped dials and you didn't disclose it.

I'm been buying old Rolexes since the '80s and of course have come across dealers who are unethical and don't disclose all KNOWN details of a watch. But through proper research and reputation you can usually weed them out. There are still good dealers out there.

Thanks, OP, for posting this. Another dealer off my list.

This is worth the call out Swish. The Tudor Sub I was talking to O&C about was in his estimation 'NOS' yet it had the wrong crystal for the sub. I don't think O&C is taken seriously among the serious vintage community, if anything it seems they are nuisance to the community by selling Franken-Watches.

I think we need to coin the term "nuisance dealer" that is brilliant, and spot on.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Well, if you follow Instagram, some of them also seem to be concerned with cars and clothing as well. Oh ... and shoes.

All Instagram shows me are reels of MTN fails!!

[Grouchy Leather]

*MTN bike fails

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Leather

Thank you for this response. I think it's safe to say that we're actually on the same page in terms of what we both want the vintage watch industry to be.

I also think it's no secret that I am new to this hobby whereas you are quite the veteran. That said I've only recently come to the conclusion that most dealers are super shady. So I apologise if I came out swinging. I am clearly still super disappointed by the realisation that I cannot fully emerge myself in this world without the fear of getting burnt!

And what you say about fantasy pieces becoming the norm is so true. It's just such a pity though as the watch world will only get smaller & smaller as a result.

Oh & thank you for the bit where it blows your mind as a 28 year old seeing people doing business on Instagram etc. It made me feel much younger than I am since I am 40 & the poor level of service I have received in general is driving me mental!! I mean it's the simple things... like response times to queries etc.

Like you said, caveat emptor... which is nearly impossible when you are from South Africa since most dealers probably just see Africa & pass as it's probably not worth their hassle.

Anyway, I've learnt quite a bit from our debate so thanks for that!

Keep an eye out in South Africa. Maybe you'll stumble upon a gem like a South African Special Forces Milsub one day.

The hunt is always more fun than the acquisition in my opinion. Enjoy the process. You'll know when you've found the one.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auct...-army-ref-5513

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/th...african-milsub

[Incroyable12]

What's interesting is the large amount of Japanese market vintage Rolex that's come up for sale recently.

Almost every single rare vintage Rolex Day-Date that's being sold now have Japanese papers and stickers.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

What's interesting is the large amount of Japanese market vintage Rolex that's come up for sale recently.

Almost every single rare vintage Rolex Day-Date that's being sold now have Japanese papers and stickers.

These were the people paying $10k for bubblebacks in the 80s. Makes sense they'd have sourced nicer dress watches back in the day.

[Grouchy Leather]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Keep an eye out in South Africa. Maybe you'll stumble upon a gem like a South African Special Forces Milsub one day.

The hunt is always more fun than the acquisition in my opinion. Enjoy the process. You'll know when you've found the one.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auct...-army-ref-5513

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/th...african-milsub

Yes I agree, the hunt does seem to be much more fun than the acquisition... unfortunately!!

I do however think that I need a bit of a time out as I've been obsessing for months & months trying to find an Oyster Royal Precision dial 6426 with dagger hands & a blued steel seconds hand (such as this one).

Needless to say I was thrilled to discover that O&C has a 6427 but then this thread happened.

[rootbeer7]

Unless you buy from the original owner with photographs to boot, there is no guarantee the watch started out how it’s being presented now. Back in the day the AD swapped dials, hands & bracelets to help sell them.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

Unless you buy from the original owner with photographs to boot, there is no guarantee the watch started out how it’s being presented now. Back in the day the AD swapped dials, hands & bracelets to help sell them.

100%. I've spoken to AD's who have sold Rolex for decades who have told me if a customer back in the day wanted "that watch but with THAT dial", they would swap it no problem. Also that they were shipped exotic stone dials as an "upsell" for any customers who might want one.

I have no issue buying a 1601 that has a different (but period correct) t swiss t dial than it was born with. Rolex wouldn't even be able to tell you which dial it was born with.

What about swapping Pepsi inserts, but still period-correct red backs? What if your 1675 dial got water logged and ruined... would you source another period correct Long E, for example? Acceptable or not?

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

100%. I've spoken to AD's who have sold Rolex for decades who have told me if a customer back in the day wanted "that watch but with THAT dial", they would swap it no problem. Also that they were shipped exotic stone dials as an "upsell" for any customers who might want one.

I have no issue buying a 1601 that has a different (but period correct) t swiss t dial than it was born with. Rolex wouldn't even be able to tell you which dial it was born with.

What about swapping Pepsi inserts, but still period-correct red backs? What if your 1675 dial got water logged and ruined... would you source another period correct Long E, for example? Acceptable or not?

Lots of diamond bezel upsells too.

I'm guessing the exotic stone dials didn't sell that well considering they're pretty hard to come by now.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Lots of diamond bezel upsells too.

I'm guessing the exotic stone dials didn't sell that well considering they're pretty hard to come by now.

Dammit i want the DD dinosaur aka fossil dial (not sure what the accepted nickname is).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

Unless you buy from the original owner with photographs to boot, there is no guarantee the watch started out how it’s being presented now. Back in the day the AD swapped dials, hands & bracelets to help sell them.

No doubt. Even the dealer claim of “it’s all original since I bought it from the original owner” is dubious at best. The original owner can tell you he never had anything swapped, and he could be telling the truth, or lying, or just incorrect because his watchmaker did it back in ‘76 without telling him because who cared about a handset back then.

[springer]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

100%. I've spoken to AD's who have sold Rolex for decades who have told me if a customer back in the day wanted "that watch but with THAT dial", they would swap it no problem. Also that they were shipped exotic stone dials as an "upsell" for any customers who might want one.

I have no issue buying a 1601 that has a different (but period correct) t swiss t dial than it was born with. Rolex wouldn't even be able to tell you which dial it was born with.

What about swapping Pepsi inserts, but still period-correct red backs? What if your 1675 dial got water logged and ruined... would you source another period correct Long E, for example? Acceptable or not?

Of course repairs and replacement parts, to include replacement of defective, scratched, corroded or earlier replacement parts, dials hands etc is acceptable. Nothing new about this at all. A substantial part of the revenue for Rolex is selling replacement parts.