Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by rootbeer7

I’m not naive enough to believe this is a one-off. I’m also not accepting an oversight on a multi-thousand dollar watch by a watch-expert, particularly when it was a watch he’d previously sold. I have no dog in the fight and these pieces are way above my pay-grade, but I enjoy looking and learning.
As far as who the re-lume expert is, we’ll probably never know, but I’ve often wondered how numbers of 369 dial Subs suddenly appeared from nowhere a few years ago.

Originally Posted by phillip ridley

[B]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I would like to thank each and everyone who attends this forum and the love you have for vintage/current Rolex watches; hopefully it remains.

I have thought about this situation over and over again, then just read the comment by MM. IMO, his response is a blatant disrespect to this community. As one who sells some serious pieces and one I have dealt with, the excuse of simply overlooking is inexcusable by any means, especially if one returns the watch after purchasing it. It is ones duty to confirm and authenticate as best as possible before handing it over to the next owner. Not to mention, it is a FULL set OCC dial which is nearly impossible to find. So...to me...I would be ecstatic to find such a piece and do my due diligence.

Based on this incident and another one from the past, I have trouble relating to this being some accident.

Let's talk about factual evidence -

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...1031&highlight

This link shows a 5512 where the one dial foot was missing, then re-attached. Shortly afterwards, MM contacted my via text asking if I would be able to alter the dial feet to fit a Rolex 1530 caliber movement. The 1500 caliber movement never had dial feet in any position other than what you see today, regardless of sport, date, day-date, perpetual or any other... each 1500 caliber dial fits the movement.

I thought to myself this had to be a one-off and left it to that. But after seeing what was clearly not a mistake made me feel that it be necessary for me to share this. As I mentioned, I am seeing and dealing with vintage owner's becoming discouraged and disenchanted about buying these watches. I would like for this to change and continue to appreciate watches that we so proudly wear.

Thank you for posting Phillip.

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

So who owned the watch before you Michael? Are you going to get your money back?



Wait what, are you serious?

You buy a watch, you log the serial and information, you sell the watch. If the watch is ever offered to you again you do a quick search and you have your information within seconds. I don't get you.

My personal view on this thread is, I don't think any of us would have been satisfied with a response from Michael. There will always be more questions that will go unanswered. At the end of the day, what benefit at this point would Michael gain by sharing more information? If he's wrong he was wrong.

This isn't a witch hunt, even tho at times it may feel like that. It upsets me so because I have spent this kind of money on vintage, so this scenario becomes very real to me.

I honestly feel bad for Stephane and feel he was caught in the middle of something. He has been around 3x longer than Michael Morgan. As I understand it, there is a very big difference between Michael and Stephane.

Stephane personally buys every single watch he sells, where's Michael Morgan mostly deals on a consignment/commission basis (from what I have been told by some). Michael has no inventory.. Who is filtering him these watches to sell is anyone’s guess..

In closing, Stephane has been reinstated back on the trusted dealers page of the RPM and Michael has not.

Regardless, everyone is free to do as they please and trust who they wish. I have personally heard enough to make fair judgement.

I think those of us that have been around here long enough have seen very trusted dealers become not so trusted. Reminds me of the Mark Lerman days. Why I feel like he's still in the background of all this might be more than just a feeling..

[tekno]

I want to see the watch.


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[stmoore]

Originally Posted by tekno

I want to see the watch.


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There’s photos of it in this thread. Page 4.

[tekno]

I don’t believe for one minute that Morgan buys 12 watches of that caliber a month. I can see selling them on consignment.

The response is an insult to everyone’s intelligence here.

Good luck having every transaction you have made in the past questioned because you were too greedy to sell the watch as is. Maybe you did sell the watch, but you knew what it was when it came back.

I think we need the gentleman from the Asian market to come respond and explain how the watch was described to him when trying to sell it.



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[southtexas]

How did I miss this thread?!

I read both of the involved parties’ statements, yet don’t see any mention by either of the dial swap claim. I believe the IG thread mentioned a dial swap as the reason for the better Lume, then it was easily noticed that the dial is in fact the same?


1) Which dealer claimed the dial had been swapped out for an original, untampered one, and 2) to whom was the claim made?


Inquiring minds and all.......

[pteryx]

Originally Posted by southtexas

How did I miss this thread?!

I read both of the involved parties’ statements, yet don’t see any mention by either of the dial swap claim. I believe the IG thread mentioned a dial swap as the reason for the better Lume, then it was easily noticed that the dial is in fact the same?


1) Which dealer claimed the dial had been swapped out for an original, untampered one, and 2) to whom was the claim made?


Inquiring minds and all.......

If i recall correctly, WW said that the watch in question are actually two different watches and was not a relume, and springer actually called him out on it.

Maybe the watchknut can clarify? Since he archived it the IG post. It would be a great service.

[southtexas]

I have no idea since neither of the parties made definitive or concise statements in their posts, and neither addressed the “dial swap” at all.

Posting up a screenshot of the IG thread might help shed more light on the positions of the parties???


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[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by tekno

I don’t believe for one minute that Morgan buys 12 watches of that caliber a month. I can see selling them on consignment.

The response is an insult to everyone’s intelligence here.

Good luck having every transaction you have made in the past questioned because you were too greedy to sell the watch as is. Maybe you did sell the watch, but you knew what it was when it came back.

I think we need the gentleman from the Asian market to come respond and explain how the watch was described to him when trying to sell it.



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Agree 100%. MM's version doesn't pass the sniff test.

[watchknut]

Here are the screenshots from my IG posts.

This is Stephane's reply from my original post in which he claimed it was a swapped dial:



Here is his response to the following post in which I showed the clear evidence that it was the same dial:



Do with this information as you will.

[roh123]

Edit: Too slow.. :)

[tommy.crown]

Originally Posted by tekno

I don’t believe for one minute that Morgan buys 12 watches of that caliber a month. I can see selling them on consignment.

The response is an insult to everyone’s intelligence here.

Good luck having every transaction you have made in the past questioned because you were too greedy to sell the watch as is. Maybe you did sell the watch, but you knew what it was when it came back.

I think we need the gentleman from the Asian market to come respond and explain how the watch was described to him when trying to sell it.



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Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Agree 100%. MM's version doesn't pass the sniff test.

His act of playing the innocent is not tricking anyone. This was a rotten deal with full knowledge.

[RolexBuff]

Well, this is scary, especially for rookie collectors, to not be able to trust so called "Trusted Sellers". After Phillip Ridley confirmed that MM asked him "to alter the dial feet to fit a Rolex 1530 caliber movement" (this or another unrelated case), his reputation (MM's) is completely ruined, and all watches he sold previously should be questioned.

[Cloudchaser]

My opinion is that there is zero chance that this was the only time MM has done this, an opinion actually fully formed before Phillip Ridley weighed in.

[SubKing]

From what I gather, Stephane was told by Michael Morgan that the dial was swapped when Stephane inquired about the watch after being alerted by watchknut. Stephane was going based on what he was told by MM. I don’t find it hard to believe.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by watchknut

Here are the screenshots from my IG posts.

This is Stephane's reply from my original post in which he claimed it was a swapped dial:



Here is his response to the following post in which I showed the clear evidence that it was the same dial:



Do with this information as you will.

Thanks!


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[RolexBuff]

Well, these are no harmless shenanigans, for sure. This might as well be defined as fraud.

[maritimewatches]

Originally Posted by SubKing

You have known Michael for over 10 years huh..?

So you have known him since he was 12?
Because he’s 22 years old now...

Yes. We met at a GTG hosted by Eric Ku and Josh Bonifas at Fourtane's, a Authorized Rolex dealer in Carmel, CA over 10 years ago. In fact there we a number of other longtime Rolex forum members, collectors and dealers from the US and Europe that were at the same GTG.

Frank

[springer]

I was involved with this matter, to a lesser extent than watchknut, after speaking to the original owner (Mr. X) concerning his discovery that his former GMT pointed crown guard (PCG) with a poorly relumed dial, that he sold to Michael Morgan, was now being offered for sale by Stephen Medam which now appeared to have had the poor relume job removed from the markers and now appeared to have been perfectly relumed.

Although watchknut was already involved at this time, I too offered my assistance to Mr. X since he was concerned about what he should do. I offered to send an email message to Medam and suggested that Mr. X contact Morgan to see what he could find out from Morgan. On Sept. 25th, I sent a couple emails to medam regarding this watch.

My first email to Medam concerned the availability and price for this GMT. His response was the watch was sold. I sent another message to Medam and asked, "Just curious, is the lume original." The email response from Medam was, "yes it was" - which meant that the lume was original. Nothing in his message to me mentioned anything about a dial swap or the dial being relumed. (Later that day, Medam made a post in Watchknut's Instagram thread regarding this watch and wrote that the dial was not relumed but a different dial.)

Now, let's go back to earlier in the year, around January, when Mr. X contacted me and asked for my assistance to purchase another PCG set that was being offered to him by a local jewelry store that was taking the watch on trade from the son of the original owner. I helped Mr. X out evaluating and pricing this watch for a potential purchase which Mr. X ended up purchasing.

After the purchase of this second GMT PCG set, Mr. X now had his old PCG GMT set with a poorly relumed dial that he wanted to sell. During my conversations with Mr. X, I was told that Michael Morgan offered to buy this relumed GMT for over $40,000 which Mr. X accepted. When I was told that Morgan was purchasing the watch, and based on some of the previous "barn find" watch sales by Morgan, I had a bad feeling about this sale to Morgan and I told Mr. X that, "you know this watch is going to end up having the old relume removed and professionally relumed and sold for substantially more than Morgan's purchase price, which appears to be what occurred. Whoever was responsible for reluming the dial remains rather ambiguous, but we now know that it was relumed and recently sold for (or close to) $88,000.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by maritimewatches

Yes. We met at a GTG hosted by Eric Ku and Josh Bonifas at Fourtane's, a Authorized Rolex dealer in Carmel, CA over 10 years ago. In fact there we a number of other longtime Rolex forum members, collectors and dealers from the US and Europe that were at the same GTG.

Frank

Frank,

I am honestly trying to wrap my head around this scenario.. You seem to recall the day very vividly as to when you first met Michael Morgan.

So this was over 10 years ago? Which made Michael 11 years old... Was he at Fourtane's party with Adult Supervision or was he by himself?

Is that when young Michael Morgan and you became close friends?

I just find your low post count and the timing of your post odd.

But I truly want to give you the benefit of the doubt here so please kindly clarify the details mentioned above.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by maritimewatches

Yes. We met at a GTG hosted by Eric Ku and Josh Bonifas at Fourtane's, a Authorized Rolex dealer in Carmel, CA over 10 years ago. In fact there we a number of other longtime Rolex forum members, collectors and dealers from the US and Europe that were at the same GTG.

Frank

Trying to wrap my head around this; I encountered a couple of prodigy types in education, as both student and instructor, but never in the professional world. At this event where MM would have been 12 or younger, I imagine there is some conversation around this prodigy who left an impression that lasts more than a decade later?

I'm not being flippant at all...trying to understand how a child prodigy became so enmeshed in the industry without everyone knowing that he was a child prodigy...seems it would have been part of his brand without him even meaning for it to be.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by springer

I was involved with this matter, to a lesser extent than watchknut, after speaking to the original owner (Mr. X) concerning his discovery that his former GMT pointed crown guard (PCG) with a poorly relumed dial, that he sold to Michael Morgan, was now being offered for sale by Stephen Medam which now appeared to have had the poor relume job removed from the markers and now appeared to have been perfectly relumed.

Although watchknut was already involved at this time, I too offered my assistance to Mr. X since he was concerned about what he should do. I offered to send an email message to Medam and suggested that Mr. X contact Morgan to see what he could find out from Morgan.

My first email to Medam concerning availability and price for this GMT was met with a response that the watch was sold. I sent another message to Medam and asked, "Just curious, is the lume original." The email response from Medam was, "yes it was" - which meant that the lume was original. Nothing in his message to me mentioned anything about a dial swap or the dial being relumed.

Now, let's go back to earlier in the year, around January, when Mr. X contacted me and asked for my assistance to purchase another PCG set that was being offered to him by a local jewelry store that was taking the watch on trade from the son of the original owner. I helped Mr. X out evaluating and pricing this watch for a potential purchase which Mr. X ended up purchasing.

After the purchase of this second GMT PCG set, Mr. X now had his old PCG GMT set with a poorly relumed dial that he wanted to sell. During my conversations with Mr. X, I was told that Michael Morgan offered to buy this relumed GMT for over $40,000 which Mr. X accepted. When I was told that Morgan was purchasing the watch, and based on some of the previous "barn find" watch sales by Morgan, I had a bad feeling about this sale to Morgan and I told Mr. X that, "you know this watch is going to end up having the old relume removed and professionally relumed and sold for substantially more than Morgan's purchase price, which appears to be what occurred. Whoever was responsible for reluming the dial remains rather ambiguous, but we now know that it was relumed and recently sold for (or close to) $88,000.

I don't think this is a fair judgment on Stephane. He already sold the watch to what he believed was original lume. If the watch was already sold, why would you think he needs to provide you with any additional information about the watch? It's also not like you specifically asked him about a dial swap. You aren't the buyer. Just someone who is asking a bunch of questions after the watch was sold. I believe Stephane was trying to be upfront with what he knew to be true at the time..

The man bought a watch and posted it publicly for sale, if Stephane knew this watch was a relume and was trying to pass it off, He wouldn't have posted it for the world to see, especially on the RPM. He would have tried to sell it behind the scenes like Morgan was trying to do.

[maritimewatches]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Frank,

I am honestly trying to wrap my head around this scenario.. You seem to recall the day very vividly as to when you first met Michael Morgan.

So this was over 10 years ago? Which made him Michael 11 years old... Was he at Fourtane's party with Adult Supervision or was he by himself?

Is that when young Michael Morgan and you became close friends?

I just find your low post count and the timing of your post odd.

But I truly want to give you the benefit of the doubt here so please kindly clarify the details mentioned above.

I just found the contemptuous post from Michael Morgan just after the GTG from August 2012. So it over 8 years ago not 10 years ago. And I don't know how he traveled to Carmel or whether or not he had parental supervision. You'll have to ask Michael those details.

And yes I tried to be nice to Michael at the GTG as he was young and new to vintage collecting. Over the years we would see each other at GTGs and watch shows, stayed in touch and have done a half dozen or so transactions over the years. That's my two cents for what its worth.

BTW I can't post the link because I only have 8 posts and you need 10 posts to be allowed to post a link. If you search for Michael Morgan from August 2012 you will see the post and related pictures from the Carmel GTG.

[maritimewatches]

This is my 10th post. So hopefully I can provide you with the link in my 11th post.

[maritimewatches]

Here is the link:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...light=fourtane

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I don't think this is a fair judgment on Stephane. He already sold the watch to what he believed was original lume. If the watch was already sold, why would you think he needs to provide you with any additional information about the watch? It's also not like you specifically asked him about a dial swap. You aren't the buyer. Just someone who is asking a bunch of questions after the watch was sold. I believe Stephane was trying to be upfront with what he knew to be true at the time..

The man bought a watch and posted it publicly for sale, if Stephane knew this watch was a relume and was trying to pass it off, He wouldn't have posted it for the world to see, especially on the RPM. He would have tried to sell it behind the scenes like Morgan was trying to do.

Yet here we sit today with this thread. Looks like those asking questions earlier on were on the right track, no?


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[Watchcollectables]

Originally Posted by maritimewatches

I just found the contemptuous post from Michael Morgan just after the GTG from August 2012. So it over 8 years ago not 10 years ago. And I don't know how he traveled to Carmel or whether or not he had parental supervision. You'll have to ask Michael those details.

And yes I tried to be nice to Michael at the GTG as he was young and new to vintage collecting. Over the years we would see each other at GTGs and watch shows, stayed in touch and have done a half dozen or so transactions over the years. That's my two cents for what its worth.

BTW I can't post the link because I only have 8 posts and you need 10 posts to be allowed to post a link. If you search for Michael Morgan from August 2012 you will see the post and related pictures from the Carmel GTG.

Post is there but no pics just a dead link.

[Phooi]

Originally Posted by Watchcollectables

Post is there but no pics just a dead link.

Yep. I concur.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Yet here we sit today with this thread. Looks like those asking questions earlier on were on the right track, no?


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nothing wrong with asking question's. I been following this since the first post about it on instagram.

Given all the current information, I just don't think it's right to paint a target on Stephanes back when he to was mislead. It all spins back on Michael.

Stephane got burned in this situation as well.. He took responsibility for not catching it because the lume job is just that good..

The difference between the two sellers is that Stephane owns all his watches and Michael doesn't carry any inventory and tried to sell the watch behind the scenes.

If you had something to pass off, would you place it publicly for sale or try to sell it behind the scenes? RPM would be the last place to try and test the waters.. I just think we are talking about two different sellers that have two completely different ways of doing things. I don't think it's hard to believe Stephane was fooled, in the same way I would have been fooled if I was in his shoes.

It's not like Stephane owned the watch twice. But morgan did..

[roh123]

Not sure what Michaels age has to do with anything? He is a well-known and reputable dealer. Regardless of his age. He deals in fine watches and is undoubtably one of the bigger players selling high-grade vintage Rolex sports watches today. Focus on the issue instead. The fact a watch comes in with a bad relume and goes out with a nice which is not even disclosed.

There’s nothing to gain from focusing on what he did or looked like in 2012. What is important is this watch and what happened. Both Stephanes and Michaels reputation is at stake and in this business that means everything.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Not sure what Michaels age has to do with anything? He is a well-known and reputable dealer. Regardless of his age. He deals in fine watches and is undoubtably one of the bigger players selling high-grade vintage Rolex sports watches today. Focus on the issue instead. The fact a watch comes in with a bad relume and goes out with a nice which is not even disclosed.

There’s nothing to gain from focusing on what he did or looked like in 2012. What is important is this watch and what happened. Both Stephanes and Michaels reputation is at stake and in this business that means everything.

His age has everything to do with it when members start posting as if they have been doing biz with MM for years and years, only then for 10 years to turn into 8 and so on.. The timing just seems unrealistic.

Find me another 13 year old watch dealer you would drop 20k with and I'm a believer.

On his site he has been collecting since he was 8 years old. Fine, but how long has he been a true expert of vintage rolex.. ?

The internet is so easy to manipulate and kids are impressionable. Someone can come along out of the blue posting photos of serious pieces and gain instant popularity among the community with a vague background in the field. All of a sudden they are the go to dealer. That's how easy it has become today...

What ever happened to crawling before you walk? It seems it's easy in this day in age to skip from A to Z