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1 October 2020, 11:11 PM | #151 | |||
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This isn't a witch hunt, even tho at times it may feel like that. It upsets me so because I have spent this kind of money on vintage, so this scenario becomes very real to me. I honestly feel bad for Stephane and feel he was caught in the middle of something. He has been around 3x longer than Michael Morgan. As I understand it, there is a very big difference between Michael and Stephane. Stephane personally buys every single watch he sells, where's Michael Morgan mostly deals on a consignment/commission basis (from what I have been told by some). Michael has no inventory.. Who is filtering him these watches to sell is anyone’s guess.. In closing, Stephane has been reinstated back on the trusted dealers page of the RPM and Michael has not. Regardless, everyone is free to do as they please and trust who they wish. I have personally heard enough to make fair judgement. I think those of us that have been around here long enough have seen very trusted dealers become not so trusted. Reminds me of the Mark Lerman days. Why I feel like he's still in the background of all this might be more than just a feeling.. |
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1 October 2020, 11:25 PM | #152 |
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I want to see the watch.
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1 October 2020, 11:39 PM | #153 |
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2 October 2020, 12:14 AM | #154 |
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Relumed PCG 1675 dial
I don’t believe for one minute that Morgan buys 12 watches of that caliber a month. I can see selling them on consignment.
The response is an insult to everyone’s intelligence here. Good luck having every transaction you have made in the past questioned because you were too greedy to sell the watch as is. Maybe you did sell the watch, but you knew what it was when it came back. I think we need the gentleman from the Asian market to come respond and explain how the watch was described to him when trying to sell it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
2 October 2020, 01:03 AM | #155 |
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How did I miss this thread?!
I read both of the involved parties’ statements, yet don’t see any mention by either of the dial swap claim. I believe the IG thread mentioned a dial swap as the reason for the better Lume, then it was easily noticed that the dial is in fact the same? 1) Which dealer claimed the dial had been swapped out for an original, untampered one, and 2) to whom was the claim made? Inquiring minds and all.......
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2 October 2020, 01:07 AM | #156 | |
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Maybe the watchknut can clarify? Since he archived it the IG post. It would be a great service. |
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2 October 2020, 01:34 AM | #157 |
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Relumed PCG 1675 dial
I have no idea since neither of the parties made definitive or concise statements in their posts, and neither addressed the “dial swap” at all.
Posting up a screenshot of the IG thread might help shed more light on the positions of the parties??? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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2 October 2020, 01:41 AM | #158 | |
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2 October 2020, 01:43 AM | #159 |
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2 October 2020, 01:49 AM | #161 | |
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His act of playing the innocent is not tricking anyone. This was a rotten deal with full knowledge. |
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2 October 2020, 01:57 AM | #162 |
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Well, this is scary, especially for rookie collectors, to not be able to trust so called "Trusted Sellers". After Phillip Ridley confirmed that MM asked him "to alter the dial feet to fit a Rolex 1530 caliber movement" (this or another unrelated case), his reputation (MM's) is completely ruined, and all watches he sold previously should be questioned.
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2 October 2020, 02:06 AM | #163 |
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My opinion is that there is zero chance that this was the only time MM has done this, an opinion actually fully formed before Phillip Ridley weighed in.
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2 October 2020, 02:10 AM | #164 |
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From what I gather, Stephane was told by Michael Morgan that the dial was swapped when Stephane inquired about the watch after being alerted by watchknut. Stephane was going based on what he was told by MM. I don’t find it hard to believe.
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2 October 2020, 02:18 AM | #165 | |
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2 October 2020, 02:49 AM | #166 |
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Well, these are no harmless shenanigans, for sure. This might as well be defined as fraud.
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2 October 2020, 02:53 AM | #167 | |
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2 October 2020, 03:01 AM | #168 |
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I was involved with this matter, to a lesser extent than watchknut, after speaking to the original owner (Mr. X) concerning his discovery that his former GMT pointed crown guard (PCG) with a poorly relumed dial, that he sold to Michael Morgan, was now being offered for sale by Stephen Medam which now appeared to have had the poor relume job removed from the markers and now appeared to have been perfectly relumed.
Although watchknut was already involved at this time, I too offered my assistance to Mr. X since he was concerned about what he should do. I offered to send an email message to Medam and suggested that Mr. X contact Morgan to see what he could find out from Morgan. On Sept. 25th, I sent a couple emails to medam regarding this watch. My first email to Medam concerned the availability and price for this GMT. His response was the watch was sold. I sent another message to Medam and asked, "Just curious, is the lume original." The email response from Medam was, "yes it was" - which meant that the lume was original. Nothing in his message to me mentioned anything about a dial swap or the dial being relumed. (Later that day, Medam made a post in Watchknut's Instagram thread regarding this watch and wrote that the dial was not relumed but a different dial.) Now, let's go back to earlier in the year, around January, when Mr. X contacted me and asked for my assistance to purchase another PCG set that was being offered to him by a local jewelry store that was taking the watch on trade from the son of the original owner. I helped Mr. X out evaluating and pricing this watch for a potential purchase which Mr. X ended up purchasing. After the purchase of this second GMT PCG set, Mr. X now had his old PCG GMT set with a poorly relumed dial that he wanted to sell. During my conversations with Mr. X, I was told that Michael Morgan offered to buy this relumed GMT for over $40,000 which Mr. X accepted. When I was told that Morgan was purchasing the watch, and based on some of the previous "barn find" watch sales by Morgan, I had a bad feeling about this sale to Morgan and I told Mr. X that, "you know this watch is going to end up having the old relume removed and professionally relumed and sold for substantially more than Morgan's purchase price, which appears to be what occurred. Whoever was responsible for reluming the dial remains rather ambiguous, but we now know that it was relumed and recently sold for (or close to) $88,000.
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2 October 2020, 03:02 AM | #169 | |
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I am honestly trying to wrap my head around this scenario.. You seem to recall the day very vividly as to when you first met Michael Morgan. So this was over 10 years ago? Which made Michael 11 years old... Was he at Fourtane's party with Adult Supervision or was he by himself? Is that when young Michael Morgan and you became close friends? I just find your low post count and the timing of your post odd. But I truly want to give you the benefit of the doubt here so please kindly clarify the details mentioned above. |
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2 October 2020, 03:06 AM | #170 | |
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I'm not being flippant at all...trying to understand how a child prodigy became so enmeshed in the industry without everyone knowing that he was a child prodigy...seems it would have been part of his brand without him even meaning for it to be.
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2 October 2020, 03:11 AM | #171 | |
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The man bought a watch and posted it publicly for sale, if Stephane knew this watch was a relume and was trying to pass it off, He wouldn't have posted it for the world to see, especially on the RPM. He would have tried to sell it behind the scenes like Morgan was trying to do. |
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2 October 2020, 03:23 AM | #172 | |
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And yes I tried to be nice to Michael at the GTG as he was young and new to vintage collecting. Over the years we would see each other at GTGs and watch shows, stayed in touch and have done a half dozen or so transactions over the years. That's my two cents for what its worth. BTW I can't post the link because I only have 8 posts and you need 10 posts to be allowed to post a link. If you search for Michael Morgan from August 2012 you will see the post and related pictures from the Carmel GTG. |
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2 October 2020, 03:27 AM | #173 |
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This is my 10th post. So hopefully I can provide you with the link in my 11th post.
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2 October 2020, 03:27 AM | #174 |
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2 October 2020, 03:33 AM | #175 | |
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Yet here we sit today with this thread. Looks like those asking questions earlier on were on the right track, no? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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2 October 2020, 03:34 AM | #176 | |
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2 October 2020, 03:36 AM | #177 |
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2 October 2020, 03:42 AM | #178 | |
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Given all the current information, I just don't think it's right to paint a target on Stephanes back when he to was mislead. It all spins back on Michael. Stephane got burned in this situation as well.. He took responsibility for not catching it because the lume job is just that good.. The difference between the two sellers is that Stephane owns all his watches and Michael doesn't carry any inventory and tried to sell the watch behind the scenes. If you had something to pass off, would you place it publicly for sale or try to sell it behind the scenes? RPM would be the last place to try and test the waters.. I just think we are talking about two different sellers that have two completely different ways of doing things. I don't think it's hard to believe Stephane was fooled, in the same way I would have been fooled if I was in his shoes. It's not like Stephane owned the watch twice. But morgan did.. |
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2 October 2020, 03:43 AM | #179 |
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Not sure what Michaels age has to do with anything? He is a well-known and reputable dealer. Regardless of his age. He deals in fine watches and is undoubtably one of the bigger players selling high-grade vintage Rolex sports watches today. Focus on the issue instead. The fact a watch comes in with a bad relume and goes out with a nice which is not even disclosed.
There’s nothing to gain from focusing on what he did or looked like in 2012. What is important is this watch and what happened. Both Stephanes and Michaels reputation is at stake and in this business that means everything.
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2 October 2020, 03:56 AM | #180 | |
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Find me another 13 year old watch dealer you would drop 20k with and I'm a believer. On his site he has been collecting since he was 8 years old. Fine, but how long has he been a true expert of vintage rolex.. ? The internet is so easy to manipulate and kids are impressionable. Someone can come along out of the blue posting photos of serious pieces and gain instant popularity among the community with a vague background in the field. All of a sudden they are the go to dealer. That's how easy it has become today... What ever happened to crawling before you walk? It seems it's easy in this day in age to skip from A to Z |
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