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Old 26 March 2013, 05:54 AM   #1
Jason71
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Why I No Longer Take My Plexiglass Subs Diving.....

Many of you might remember me making the statements in an earlier thread regarding the why I don't dive with my Plexiglass Subs anymore and I leave that to the Sapphire Crystal watches. This has to do with the way that the crystal affixes to the watch case. With a sapphire, there is an O-ring, and with a plexiglass crystal, there is a steel retaining ring. I acquired this watch from Eric June 2011. Here is what it looked like when it arrived to me.



A couple months later in September 2011, I took the watch with me on a 2 week trip to Europe visiting Italy, France, Switzerland, Germany and Austria. This was the only watch I took with me, and I wore it on a NATO. While in Italy, I got the wild hair and decided to go diving in Riomaggiore, Italy. It never had crossed my mind before I went on the trip that I might be able to go diving, and I had packed EVERYTHING in a backpack for the two week trip. No dive gear whatsoever. I had to rely on rented gear, in a foreign country, with little to no English spoken by ANYONE on the diveboat. All of my rented gear was using the metric system, so I was Really out of my element. At first, I thought about not taking the Red Sub but I determined that it would be better for me to at least take one piece of equipment that I was familiar with. Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the watch while underwater on that trip, but I did use it underwater again in Feb 2012 primarily to take a few pictures of it underwater.

It was really interesting to me how the red text nearly disappeared underwater. (Sorry for the exposure)




Soon after I arrived back home, I took a couple pictures of the watch and was alarmed.....I could see some orange-colored rust under the crystal. I immediately contacted Rik Dietel and sent him the picture. He said while he couldn't be sure, it appeared that some water had been trapped under this retaining ring that holds the crystal and that water had likely not entered into the case. I sent the watch to him right away, and he did a complete service for me. This was in fact the case. Water had not entered the case, but had been trapped under this retaining ring. He said this was not an issue with the plexiglass models because the o-ring prevented this from happening, but it was common with the plexiglass models.

I did look back through some pictures after diving in September 2011 and before Feb 2012 and there was a hint of orange in this same area. It wasn't terribly noticeable unless you were taking a macro shot of the watch.





He also said that it was no big deal unless it was left unchecked. The crystal magnifies the area of corrosion GREATLY and it isn't a big area at all. However, if left unchecked......it could be VERY BAD

Anyways, I just thought I would share my experience with everyone. I hope I didn't bore you too much
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Old 26 March 2013, 06:03 AM   #2
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Jason, not good, at all. I feel for you.
25+ years as a dive master, Casio G Shock, disposable and accurate, practicing what I preach. At least your dial is fine. Not worth the risk with an acrylic.
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Old 26 March 2013, 06:11 AM   #3
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Thanks J...Very interesting...
In years past I advocated wearing your properly serviced vintage watch all the time regardless of what one was doing...
I mean, that's what they're for...
But as I get older my position is softening...
Now, when swimming, I wear my 16600 or my 14060M...That's it!
Even my 666 will no longer see water...I mean I see no point in it...
I guess I'm getting old...
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Old 26 March 2013, 06:16 AM   #4
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I was first trained in 1970 while in College. Some of the well-off guys had Omega's and Rolex. I had a $30 dive watch and $15 depth gauge.

I couldn't afford the $200-300 or so for the better stuff, but I do recall the chief instructor's warning...

Don't wear it unless you're ready to lose it. Of course he meant in an emergency, but anything can cause a failure.
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Old 26 March 2013, 06:24 AM   #5
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Thanks J...Very interesting...
In years past I advocated wearing your properly serviced vintage watch all the time regardless of what one was doing...
I mean, that's what they're for...
But as I get older my position is softening...
Now, when swimming, I wear my 16600 or my 14060M...That's it!
Even my 666 will no longer see water...I mean I see no point in it...
I guess I'm getting old...
I am right there with you Clay. I once felt the same way. It is not that the Red Sub couldn't take it, but there are just better designed tools for the job. My 16600 can be restored to current condition by RSC if it floods.

NOW, with that said.......A 16600 with drilled-through lugs is still my tool of choice while diving. It is worth the added expense to have this watched looked at and serviced more frequently since it sees a great deal of saltwater. I understand that people use digitals, computers, etc for diving........but for me it is worth it to have something that I know is not prone to failure either with flooding (I have had 2 computers flood on me in my 8 years of diving), or with battery failure (I have also had this happen twice). I use a digital bottom timer/depth gauge, but IT IS MY BACK-UP to my mechanical depth gauge and Rolex Bottom timer. I often dive at VERY remote locations where if you have a failure on the 2nd day of diving...........You likely will not be able to get a tool repaired/serviced/battery changed/etc until arrival back to USA.

Unfortunately, the 16600 is also in jeopardy now. When I started diving with one, you could pick-up a beat-up 16600 for ~$3,000 or less. compared to the rest of my dive gear, this was comparable. Now, with values double that..........I am again looking for a good tool in the $2,000-$3,000 range.

Honestly.....the Pelagos may soon take the job from the 16600
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Old 26 March 2013, 06:51 AM   #6
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I think as long as you get it pressure-checked annually, and especially before traveling, it should be fine.
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Old 26 March 2013, 07:09 AM   #7
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I think as long as you get it pressure-checked annually, and especially before traveling, it should be fine.
But Adam, it was pressure-checked and it wasn't fine. There case integrity/seals weren't compromised. However, the corrosion still appeared in a place that required an expert's attention. I don't know about you, but I just can't afford a yearly service of one watch. I have too many Rolex watches to keep up with service, maintenance, etc.
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Old 26 March 2013, 07:30 AM   #8
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hmmmmmmm

im not sure this is a genuine "red" submariner I have been doing a lot of research and the word submariner looks too long.

http://www.doubleredseadweller.com/w.../untitled.html
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Old 26 March 2013, 07:31 AM   #9
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I hear you J...
As time goes by even the run of the mill Rolex watches are becoming "collector's items"...
It's a tangled web...
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Old 26 March 2013, 07:35 AM   #10
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Such a beautiful red sub. Thank God you caught the issue in time. This is an awesome thread. Very good info to know.
Ironically, you state that you can't depend on electronics 100% which is why you chose the Rolex, yet this whole thread is hilighting the very fact that even the particular models in your situation had issues. Maybe they survived that particular dive but if not for your situational awareness the sub would would have likely suffered a similar catastrophic fate eventually.
Anything manmade will have issues, which is why in the army we always had backups for the backups. :thumbup:

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Old 26 March 2013, 08:17 AM   #11
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im not sure this is a genuine "red" submariner I have been doing a lot of research and the word submariner looks too long.

http://www.doubleredseadweller.com/w.../untitled.html

It's a genuine 1680 with a service dial
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Old 26 March 2013, 08:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
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But Adam, it was pressure-checked and it wasn't fine. There case integrity/seals weren't compromised. However, the corrosion still appeared in a place that required an expert's attention. I don't know about you, but I just can't afford a yearly service of one watch. I have too many Rolex watches to keep up with service, maintenance, etc.
I can take mine into my local guy and he'll pressure test for me for free...I understand what you said, but I can't believe that this was a routine occurrence when these watches were new; I'm sure they were designed to withstand leakage. Perhaps a defect of your particular crystal?

Still, it would probably be best to be safe and use a modern watch for diving (I still think that just swimming with a pressure-tested vintage would be okay).
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Old 26 March 2013, 08:37 AM   #13
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Such a beautiful red sub. Thank God you caught the issue in time. This is an awesome thread. Very good info to know.
Ironically, you state that you can't depend on electronics 100% which is why you chose the Rolex, yet this whole thread is hilighting the very fact that even the particular models in your situation had issues. Maybe they survived that particular dive but if not for your situational awareness the sub would would have likely suffered a similar catastrophic fate eventually.
Anything manmade will have issues, which is why in the army we always had backups for the backups. :thumbup:

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So true. This is the exact reason that I always take 2 Rolex divers on a dive trip with me. I have had a mechanical watch with me on approximately 350 dives and never had a failure. I do think with regular service intervals the chances of failure on 4-5 dive trips (typically 1 week each) per year is unlikely, but definitely could happen. 2 Rolex subs/SDs failing in one week at the same time? Help me, because Poseidon has speared me on his trident
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Old 26 March 2013, 08:41 AM   #14
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I can take mine into my local guy and he'll pressure test for me for free...I understand what you said, but I can't believe that this was a routine occurrence when these watches were new; I'm sure they were designed to withstand leakage. Perhaps a defect of your particular crystal?

Still, it would probably be best to be safe and use a modern watch for diving (I still think that just swimming with a pressure-tested vintage would be okay).
Based on what Rik told me when he inspected it, there was no flaw and that it actually was fairly common on these era watches. I do get where you are coming from, but I have noticed when scouring the boards in search of a 1680 that there was this slight discoloration on some of them around the rehaut / crystal area. I personally believe this to be a limit of design based on the technology of the day and that there are just better designs out there now with the newer models.

I DON'T believe that the newer ceramics are superior for actual diving though.
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Old 26 March 2013, 08:50 AM   #15
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Personally none of my vintage kids will ever see water and I am ok with that.
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Old 26 March 2013, 09:32 AM   #16
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Glad you started this thread - very interesting find.

Do you notice this type of pitting accumulating due to deeper dives or from water submersion in general?
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:11 AM   #17
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Jason thanks for the informative post. That corrosion is a common malady that is seen often when vintage macro pics are taken. My maxi 4 has a little corrosion as well, and its always has passed the pressure test. I collect plexi and swim with sapphire.
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:13 AM   #18
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Well, this thread makes me pause and reconsider my plan for my weekend watch I have a circa 1978 1680 arriving tomorrow. It replaces a circa 1967 5513 that had been serviced and pressure tested and was my weekend watch for 1 year without issue (swims, laps in the pool and showers). I like wearing a vintage diver all weekend, swimming and showering with it - not having to switch to a sapphire watch or remove the plexi for swims or showers...

My plan for the 1680 (once pressure tested) is to perform the same duty.
This topic has been around before related to swims and showers - do we feel nervous about getting vintage wet under any circumstance?
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:16 AM   #19
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Do you wash the watch thoroughly with fresh water after each dive? Could it also be crystal cement that has aged or lubricant used when the crystal was pressed?
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:20 AM   #20
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Have to agree - would not expose my 1680 unnecessarily to water - occasionally the pool until fairly recently but definitely not in the sea. My AD who I can totally rely on has serviced it and pressure tested it, but even he queries the wisdom of putting it in water, given its age, now 35 years old. As someone else already mentioned, the risk is less with a more modern watch, so I go with my 42mm Explorer for anything ambitious!


Must say, the red Sub at the start of the thread is real beauty and I certainly would no be risking it
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:24 AM   #21
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Thanks for the post. Very important notice to all.

As an engineer, I can understand fully the reasons for this failure.

Tolerances and fits, can vary in our watches. As well as their parts assembly.

Add a knock on the acrylic, ( which you might NOT notice beeing underwater or on the boat, while wearing your dive gear), the shock that the different materials with different thermal expansion coefficients experience going from the hot sun exposure before the dive to the lower temperature water, ( acrylic vs SS ), and you get the conditions for a leak. Have you ever touched your watch ( not you in person but all of us ) after some time in the sun ? All the above play their role in what had happened to your watch.

I am fully with the " Wear it if you are prepared to lose it ". I almost lost my DJ while water skiing and a Sub in spear fishing.

On the other hand, I shall not keep them it in the safe.

I check my watches every May before the season, and use them because this is why I have them.

I also use, if in doubt, an old trick from my training in the navy underwater team during my mil service. Get your watch a "cover". We did use some grease around it, to avoid reflections and protect it from leaks. In my normal life, I use either vaseline or some Nivea cream, all can be easily washed afterwards with some mild soap and a toothbrush.

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Old 26 March 2013, 10:25 AM   #22
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Jason thanks for the informative post. That corrosion is a common malady that is seen often when vintage macro pics are taken. My maxi 4 has a little corrosion as well, and its always has passed the pressure test. I collect plexi and swim with sapphire.
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:40 AM   #23
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I have a vintage with that orange look also from years ago. I swim with no watch! Too scared to risk my rolex or omega. No big deal just would wear my casio if I needed one or my 14060M on a nato if I wanted a rolex.
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Old 26 March 2013, 10:54 AM   #24
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thanks for this post.

i buy watches to wear them into anything and everything and, while i appreciate the intrinsic value of vintage rolexes, i just can't bring myself to wear something that i have to baby.

i guess i'll get vintage when i'm too old to go near water
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:26 AM   #25
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Being near water is quite terrifying for us old guys especially while wearing an old expensive watch!
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:51 AM   #26
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Do you wash the watch thoroughly with fresh water after each dive? Could it also be crystal cement that has aged or lubricant used when the crystal was pressed?
I do soak it in fresh water after a dive for 10-15 min. and then shower with it and wash it with soap and water in the shower.
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:29 PM   #27
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Funny, this is the corrosion that i look for on a vintage watch before i buy on ebay. hard to fake this, and is almost always found on beat up unrestored pieces. beautiful dial on the OP's watch. i would not dive with it either. get an old tudor for this!
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:41 PM   #28
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Being near water is quite terrifying for us old guys especially while wearing an old expensive watch!
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:42 PM   #29
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Hey, when I paid less then $1000 for a 5513 I wore it 24/7...
But now that prices have risen 5 to 600%, one must think twice...
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Old 26 March 2013, 11:56 PM   #30
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Great and informative thread chaps.
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