1956 Explorer 6610 - Antarctica

[AlexRiot]

Hello ladies and gents,

I am an aspiring vintage watch collector. I thought I should write to you all and share my recent experience acquiring a 6610 Explorer dated 1956 and would really appreciate your feedback as experienced collectors.

The watch itself was originally worn by a Gentlemen called Ivor Beney, a member of the Royal Society who was involved in an expedition to Antarctica. I was provided with documents and photos supporting this fact and also the back of the case is stamped with Ivor Beney, IGYE, Antarctica, 1956-1959.

I purchased this watch from a reputable dealer in London who’s been in the business for a long time. Prior to purchase the dealer assured me that the piece is “all original” and provided me with a signed in house Certificate guaranteeing the originality of the watch. However, after purchase, reading through the supporting documentation about Ivor Beney and his Expedition to Antarctica I came across an email back in 1999 about the specification from the X owner to the current dealer. The prior owner states that this 6610 has a 1016 dial! With immediate concern I did some research.

Some investigation lead me to believe this is not a standard 1016 dial. The dial does look like a 1016 however instead of the usual “SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED” it shows “OFFICIALY CERTIFIED CHRONOMETER” like you would see on a 6610.

Also, instead of SWISS T25 this dial shows a T SWISS T under the 6 hour.

The second hand also looks to be more like a 1016 and I doubt the originality.

I’ve spent just over £8500 for what I’ve been told is an original 6610. Now, I've completely lost confidence about the authenticity of the watch.

Do you still think this is a piece worth keeping and if so would you consider it as a good investment?

I've attached

Any feedback/wisdom is much appreciated at this point. Thanks in advance!

[Haywood_Milton]

Not the dial I would have expected to see in a 1950's Explorer....

Edit : then, two minutes after googling "Ivor Beney Rolex," I found a similar discussion from 2014 may have reached the same conclusion on what sounds like the same watch.

See https://www.rolexforums.com/~trfcom/...d.php?t=343502

The provenance would for many be outweighed by the dial, but there has to be value remaining in a watch like this. How much, I find difficult to say.

HM

[AlexRiot]

Thanks HM,
Looked at the past forum regarding this watch. The enquirer believes the watch to be an early 1016 however this is a 6610. The dial is possibly an unusual 6610 original or most likely a replacement dial as far as I can understand.

[Mark020]

Most of us are collectors and we do 2 things. 1) due diligence before we buy a watch and 2) don't see a watch as an investment

[Haywood_Milton]

I do see the watch as historically interesting, but I also believe that most would not think that to be the dial first fitted to the watch.

OP, you speak of "the enquirer" believing the watch to be an early 1016. You have yourself said that the watch is a 6610, so who is this enquirer?

If the watch has 6610 between the lugs, it's a 6610 !

HM

[Watchcollectables]

Interesting term of phrase ` all original ` . It could mean original genuine parts , or original to the watch since first sold.
Id be of the opinion the dial is a replacement and a genuine Rolex dial with matching hands of the same period. Not totally correct for a 6610 but still a nice looking watch and as Haywood states it has historical importance . Its a nice piece.

[AlexRiot]

I do love the watch and I t's got great history. However, should I be returning this for something more authentic? Any opinion is appreciated at this stage.
Thanks

[Watchcollectables]

What attracted you to the watch in the first place ?

[Old Expat Beast]

Please don't keep re-submitting posts that you have been told are awaiting moderation. Thanks.

[AlexRiot]

I've always wanted an Explorer. When I saw this and the history associated with it I had to get it!

Originally Posted by Watchcollectables

What attracted you to the watch in the first place ?

[andromeda160]

It's devalued because A:it's an expensive dial, and B: it's no longer the complete watch that went on the journey. Half the love for rolex is seeing how well the case protected the dial. While the original probably got radium burned an cracked, MW who collects expidition watches passed because it wasn't complete enough and he evaluated it for about what you paid. Personally I'd rather have a good condition 6610 w/o provenance. You could always track down a dial though which would increase the value a bit. But it would be quite tough to track down I'd imagine. It's a neat watch, but is that much extra worth it for a case back with some story's. Unless you have paperwork tying the watch to the original owner via SN that's the only original part you can really confirm since parts have been swapped already.

[Watchcollectables]

Originally Posted by AlexRiot

I've always wanted an Explorer. When I saw this and the history associated with it I had to get it!

Well then keep it and enjoy it ;-)

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

OP, you speak of "the enquirer" believing the watch to be an early 1016. You have yourself said that the watch is a 6610, so who is this enquirer?
HM

I still want to know who the third man is! Are you selling the watch?

HM

[Old Expat Beast]

For me, the replacement dial and hands are part of that watch's life story, and were probably put on quite a few years ago. If the price was right (which it seems to be) I'd be ok with it.

[AlexRiot]

The third man is someone who was interested in this watch prior to my involvement.
You can see the thread here.
https://www.rolexforums.com/~trfcom/...d.php?t=343502

[JustinK]

Mike Wood said it all in the prior post. It would be cool to see the pictures if your willing.

[AlexRiot]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

For me, the replacement dial and hands are part of that watch's life story, and were probably put on quite a few years ago. If the price was right (which it seems to be) I'd be ok with it.

Thank you Old Expat Beast. It's a great conversation piece with a colourful life story.

[AlexRiot]

Originally Posted by JustinK

Mike Wood said it all in the prior post. It would be cool to see the pictures if your willing.

Hi Justin,
I've uploaded the pictures at the start of the thread. Can you not see them?

[watchcrank]

Interesting example with replacement dial & hands. Still a project but one with a reason to find the original parts even though difficult or enjoy as is and always have a story to tell.

[JustinK]

Originally Posted by AlexRiot

Hi Justin,
I've uploaded the pictures at the start of the thread. Can you not see them?

I was referring to the pictures you were provided to support the watch was actually worn by Ivor Beney. I was assuming you have pictures of him on an expedition or wearing the watch based on your first post.

[AlexRiot]

Hi WatchCrank- I agree with you however I hear the original 6610 dials are hard to find.

Justin-I'm back in the office on the 14th. I will scan and make sure to share the pictures with you then. They are pictures of Ivor during the expedition. Unfortunately there is no photos with him wearing the watch. Below are some links to his achievements. They have named one of the mountains in Antarctica after him.

http://www.smitha.demon.co.uk/zfids/1958/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Beney

[AlexRiot]

Hi Justin,
I've tried to add some links for you but the moderator is currently evaluating these.
I am back in the office on the 14th and will scan the photos to share with you.
The photos are during Mr Beney's expedition. Unfortunately there is none with the watch in view. However good reference indeed.
If you google Mount Beney you will see that this mountain in Antarctica was named after him. Also type in Ivor Beney in Google images and you will come across a couple of photos of him during the expedition.

[AlexRiot]

Thank you WatchCrank. It will be a pleasure wearing this and although hard to find I will most certainly be in the lookout for an original 6610 dial. Any leads?

[TheBluePrince]

Keep it. How many people in the UK could look at this and say "Oh the dial's not original" without referring to reference material ? 10, 20? It's not like it's a new Lumi service dial that looks out of place.

[AlexRiot]

By the way I am searching everywhere for a 1016 dial with the words "Officially Certified Chronometer"
Although likely to be a replacement dial by Rolex very rare nevertheless.
What do you gentleman think?

[AlexRiot]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Keep it. How many people in the UK could look at this and say "Oh the dial's not original" without referring to reference material ? 10, 20? It's not like it's a new Lumi service dial that looks out of place.

Cheers Blue Prince.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by AlexRiot

By the way I am searching everywhere for a 1016 dial with the words "Officially Certified Chronometer"
Although likely to be a replacement dial by Rolex very rare nevertheless.
What do you gentleman think?

Hi Alex,

You've shown us a nice 6610 with an interesting history. But you are " ... searching everywhere for a 1016 dial with the words "Officially Certified Chronometer" ..."
Are these two different projects ?

A 6610 needs a gilt OCC dial with pins positioned for a 1030 movement. A 1016 needs an SCOC dial with the pins positioned for a 15xx movement.
Over the years, 6610's have popped up with SCOC dials and 1016's have popped up with OCC dials.
Each of those mixes are not a happy union and I'd posit that they happened post factory with tell-tale signs of the dial pins having been relocated.
Possibly a slight difference in the outer diameter of the two dials too I'm thinking.

I say you need a gilt chapter ring 6610 OCC dial Sir ...... not easy to find but they do come up for sale occassionally .

[AlexRiot]

Originally Posted by Paul

Hi Alex,

You've shown us a nice 6610 with an interesting history. But you are " ... searching everywhere for a 1016 dial with the words "Officially Certified Chronometer" ..."
Are these two different projects ?

A 6610 needs a gilt OCC dial with pins positioned for a 1030 movement. A 1016 needs an SCOC dial with the pins positioned for a 15xx movement.
Over the years, 6610's have popped up with SCOC dials and 1016's have popped up with OCC dials.
Each of those mixes are not a happy union and I'd posit that they happened post factory with tell-tale signs of the dial pins having been relocated.
Possibly a slight difference in the outer diameter of the two dials too I'm thinking.

I say you need a gilt chapter ring 6610 OCC dial Sir ...... not easy to find but they do come up for sale occassionally .

Thanks for your valuable input Paul,
There arent multiple projects. I was only trying to identify my current dial which appears to be a rare/early 1016 OCC dial.

Does anyone know of a 6610 dial without the chapter ring?

Also Paul, where would you be looking for such a hard to find item?

Thanks
Ali

[The_Walrus]

Originally Posted by Paul

Hi Alex,

You've shown us a nice 6610 with an interesting history. But you are " ... searching everywhere for a 1016 dial with the words "Officially Certified Chronometer" ..."
Are these two different projects ?

A 6610 needs a gilt OCC dial with pins positioned for a 1030 movement. A 1016 needs an SCOC dial with the pins positioned for a 15xx movement.
Over the years, 6610's have popped up with SCOC dials and 1016's have popped up with OCC dials.
Each of those mixes are not a happy union and I'd posit that they happened post factory with tell-tale signs of the dial pins having been relocated.
Possibly a slight difference in the outer diameter of the two dials too I'm thinking.

I say you need a gilt chapter ring 6610 OCC dial Sir ...... not easy to find but they do come up for sale occassionally .

X2 for me. I too am of the belief a 6610 dial is one with a chapter ring

[AlexRiot]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for your valuable input and sorry about the confusion.
I was only trying to identify the unusual dial that came with my 6610. There aren't multiple projects.
Any ideas where to look for an authentic 6610 dial?