GMT Master II 3186 "stick" VS "Rectangle" dials

[Fabrice M]

So anyone who loves or collect GMT's knows about the "error" dial known as stick dial found on both Z and M serial 16710's some with the 3185 but most with the 3186 movement Z6 to M3. I read a few articles about them, some stating that Rolex had said the stick wasn't an error but a way to differentiate 16710 with the 3186 from the 3185, which would make sense except for two facts. Some stick dials are 3185's and very some 3186's have the rectangle, not the stick. Which bring me to another question which is: why do collectors consider the "stick" dial more valuable than the "rectangle" dial considering that it seems to me, and from my research that the rectangle one is the least common of the two.

here is a timeline I have found here and there, I know it isn't completely accurate as I have seen M36xxxx with rectangle dials, but it does make the point that the rectangle one seem to be less common:

Z77XXXX - 3185 Rectangular II
Z96XXXX - 3186 Stick II
Z6XXXXX - 3185 Stick II
M23XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M23XXXX - 3186 Rectangular II
M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M36XXXX - 3186 Stick II
MXXXXXX - 3186 Stick II

I would love to know if anyone has any new knowledge or new insights on those mystery dials.

[sond86]

Outstanding!

I never really paid much attention and hope to learn more!
Mine is an M3xx with sticks

[037]

Outstanding, indeed!

It's definitely an error calling sticks an "error" dial since clearly it was intentional. Rectangles are pretty darn rare. If anything they were the true error.*





*But done on purpose.

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by 037

Outstanding, indeed!

It's definitely an error calling sticks an "error" dial since clearly it was intentional. Rectangles are pretty darn rare. If anything they were the true error.*





*But done on purpose.

It would seem that way...

[karmatp]

I had a D serial with sticks. It makes no difference, it is just a dial variance period. There are many older models going back to at least 2005 with sticks.

The only thing I can think of is that Rolex was using the last of their stick dials towards the end of the 5 digit GMT's production. They were probably just out of the rectangular dials.

[mineral]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

So anyone who loves or collect GMT's knows about the "error" dial known as stick dial found on both Z and M serial 16710's some with the 3185 but most with the 3186 movement Z6 to M3. I read a few articles about them, some stating that Rolex had said the stick wasn't an error but a way to differentiate 16710 with the 3186 from the 3185, which would make sense except for two facts. Some stick dials are 3185's and very some 3186's have the rectangle, not the stick. Which bring me to another question which is: why do collectors consider the "stick" dial more valuable than the "rectangle" dial considering that it seems to me, and from my research that the rectangle one is the least common of the two.



here is a timeline I have found here and there, I know it isn't completely accurate as I have seen M36xxxx with rectangle dials, but it does make the point that the rectangle one seem to be less common:



Z77XXXX - 3185 Rectangular II

Z96XXXX - 3186 Stick II

Z6XXXXX - 3185 Stick II

M23XXXX - 3186 Stick II

M23XXXX - 3186 Rectangular II

M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II

M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II

M36XXXX - 3186 Stick II

MXXXXXX - 3186 Stick II



I would love to know if anyone has any new knowledge or new insights on those mystery dials.

I have D serial NOS gmt coke with stick II dial too. Stick dial not only appears on Z or M serial.




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[mistral]

I also have D serial GMT Pepsi with stick dial I bought from DavidSW few years ago.

[padi56]

Only in the internet fantasy island does the so called error or stick dial exist. In the real world all it is a simple font change much like the hundreds of others over the past 50 years.

[meganfox17]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

I would love to know if anyone has any new knowledge or new insights on those mystery dials

" Shall I answer Chronologically? Or Alphabetically Mr Fabrice? I have neither new insights nor I love to theorize before collecting data but then again I may end up twisting the facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts "I believe that the total production run of Ref 16710-3186 worldwide is between 30000-35000

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by padi56

Only in the internet fantasy island does the so called error or stick dial exist. In the real world all it is a simple font change much like the hundreds of others over the past 50 years.

Yes, in principle I totally agree with you. Rolex is know to change typeface elements , kerning and leading on their dial over the years: Mk1, mk2, mk3...etc But once they make a change they stick ( no pun intended) with it, they don't interweave two different dial design over years... I don't believe the "Stick" dials are an error either, but I don't understand the rectangle one. I have a background in graphic design and I don't know any typefaces where an uppercase 2 is a rectangle. and in the case of the Z and M series, most are stick only, where does those "rectangle" come from?

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by mineral

I have D serial NOS gmt coke with stick II dial too. Stick dial not only appears on Z or M serial.




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Thanks for sharing. I never knew the D serial was included.
Cheers.

[037]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

But once they make a change they stick ( no pun intended) with it, they don't interweave two different dial design over years...

Plenty of dials have interwoven typographic elements over the years. The 16600 Sea-Dweller Luminova dials are a random mix of flat and pointed 4s and tall/short Fs in the "4000 ft / 1200 m" line. The 16610LV saw five or six different dials that weren't introduced contiguously across serials. And, even the latest 6-digit Subs have at least two dials each, and I believe the bold Submariner line and tall Fs are likely limited to 2017+ models although some here have said otherwise.

I suspect they make dials in batches, toss them in storage and use them as needed without any desire or need to sort variations when they're initially put into storage.

The bigger question is why they have so many different typographic elements on dials that span such short periods. The 16610LV comes to mind here.

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by 037

Plenty of dials have interwoven typographic elements over the years. The 16600 Sea-Dweller Luminova dials are a random mix of flat and pointed 4s and tall/short Fs in the "4000 ft / 1200 m" line. The 16610LV saw five or six different dials that weren't introduced contiguously across serials. And, even the latest 6-digit Subs have at least two dials each, and I believe the bold Submariner line and tall Fs are likely limited to 2017+ models although some here have said otherwise.

I suspect they make dials in batches, toss them in storage and use them as needed without any desire or need to sort variations when they're initially put into storage.

The bigger question is why they have so many different typographic elements on dials that span such short periods. The 16610LV comes to mind here.

That’s new and news to me. I have collected watches for a few years now, read a few books on Rolex and usually you will have variation over the years, such as a mk1 dial, then an mk2, mk3 etc...etc... but not at the same time. But I may be wrong, always willing to learn new things thus the question. Also it makes no sense to me to have Batches made of different design and typeface, it goes against any branding rules I have ever been taught . Like in all companies of that caliber, there is a very strict “style Guide” that must be respected and that all employees and suppliers must strictly adher to , a golden rule in branding, and a necessity in making counterfeit more difficult.

[037]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

That’s new and news to me. I have collected watches for a few years now, read a few books on Rolex and usually you will have variation over the years, such as a mk1 dial, then an mk2, mk3 etc...etc... but not at the same time. But I may be wrong, always willing to learn new things thus the question. Also it makes no sense to me to have Batches made of different design and typeface, it goes against any branding rules I have ever been taught . Like in all companies of that caliber, there is a very strict “style Guide” that must be respected and that all employees and suppliers must strictly adher to , a golden rule in branding, and a necessity in making counterfeit more difficult.

No arguments there. Dials are all over the map on typography. Even the Rolex logotype has varied on dials in recent years. The mk1/mk2/etc thing came from Mondani books to denote different variations as they were discovered but even they found orders changing as you've noted with stick/rectangle dials on GMTs and the myriad of dials and inserts on the 16610LV. You could find mk1+mk1, mk1+mk2, mk3+mk2, and so on with LV dials+bezels. That's why I'm lead to believe it was whatever was pulled from stock at that moment.

Why the typefaces were so varied, again, is the big question here. You'd think they'd make one dial/bezel for a watch and stick with it, especially if everything is made in-house as they claim. Maybe the variations actually were to counteract counterfeiting?

[gmtobsessed]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

So anyone who loves or collect GMT's knows about the "error" dial known as stick dial found on both Z and M serial 16710's some with the 3185 but most with the 3186 movement Z6 to M3. I read a few articles about them, some stating that Rolex had said the stick wasn't an error but a way to differentiate 16710 with the 3186 from the 3185, which would make sense except for two facts. Some stick dials are 3185's and very some 3186's have the rectangle, not the stick. Which bring me to another question which is: why do collectors consider the "stick" dial more valuable than the "rectangle" dial considering that it seems to me, and from my research that the rectangle one is the least common of the two.

here is a timeline I have found here and there, I know it isn't completely accurate as I have seen M36xxxx with rectangle dials, but it does make the point that the rectangle one seem to be less common:

Z77XXXX - 3185 Rectangular II
Z96XXXX - 3186 Stick II
Z6XXXXX - 3185 Stick II
M23XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M23XXXX - 3186 Rectangular II
M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M30XXXX - 3186 Stick II
M36XXXX - 3186 Stick II
MXXXXXX - 3186 Stick II

I would love to know if anyone has any new knowledge or new insights on those mystery dials.

Mine is M3XXX with rectangular

[ronricks]

‘Stick’ dials have also been used as service dials. Not rare and not an ‘error’. It is internet myth (more like fantasy)

[037]

Agreed. "GMT-MASTER III" would be an error. Articles claiming sticks or rectangles as errors just want to make more money.

[Frakis]

My personal opinion is the rectangle II is more rare than the stick dial II. There have been stick dials reported as early as D-serials and service dials. When comparing the "Rectangle" vs. "stick":

1. All other fonts are slightly different.

2. "-" is shifted to one side on Rectangular II.

3. "Oyster Perpetual Date" has larger spacing in between on Rectangular II.

4. "Swiss Made" is smaller on Rectangular II.

5. The rim on hour markers are thicker on Stick II.

https://www.minus4plus6.com/paracromblu16710.php

[Fabrice M]

My opinion as well.

[Onikage]

D serial with sticks here too. They're still cool. People call them Error Sticks.

[Frakis]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

My opinion as well.

Let’s see that Pepsi beauty! Is it a “rectangle”? Cheers!

[Fabrice M]

Originally Posted by Frakis

Let’s see that Pepsi beauty! Is it a “rectangle”? Cheers!

As you wish my friend. Pepsi with rectangle next to her sister Coke...

[Frakis]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

As you wish my friend Pepsi with rectangle next to her sister Coke...

My 3186 "Rectangle" says hi!

[Fabrice M]

With a jubilee... Impressive.
The jubilee was never in my radar until I tried one recently at an AD, it really has that classic sort of vintage kind of old school feel to it that I am really starting to appreciate and I am really thrill Rolex is bringing it back. Can't wait to get my hands on a 126710BLRO. Cheers.

[WJGESQ]

Are "stick dials" more valuable?

[Fabrice M]

If by “valuable” you mean more expensive, the answer is right now yes. And that’s one of my question. Since the rectangle dial is more rare, it seems, why is the stick dial more expensive right now? My feeling is that the rectangle dial isn’t as known as the stick. Seems that many people have heard about the stick, but not so much the rectangle... I actually don’t really care much for what has the most monetary value, but much more the enigma surrounding the rectangle one. Where does this come from and what is it... I don’t believe in error dials.

[Frakis]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

If by “valuable” you mean more expensive, the answer is right now yes. And that’s one of my question. Since the rectangle dial is more rare, it seems, why is the stick dial more expensive right now? My feeling is that the rectangle dial isn’t as known as the stick. Seems that many people have heard about the stick, but not so much the rectangle... I actually don’t really care much for what has the most monetary value, but much more the enigma surrounding the rectangle one. Where does this come from and what is it... I don’t believe in error dials.

I had a conversation last week with a very well known trusted seller here on TRF, and he admitted to not even knowing that a “rectangle” dial even existed. He was thankful I brought it to his attention, and sent him some information. I too am very curious about the enigma surrounding the “rectangle” dial. If anybody has more information on this please share.

[Frakis]

Originally Posted by Fabrice M

With a jubilee... Impressive.
The jubilee was never in my radar until I tried one recently at an AD, it really has that classic sort of vintage kind of old school feel to it that I am really starting to appreciate and I am really thrill Rolex is bringing it back. Can't wait to get my hands on a 126710BLRO. Cheers.

I have the original Oyster bracelet as well. It’s nice to change up the look. 6 in 1 club! In my opinion, this is why the 16710 will always be a classic. So much versatility!

[subluvr]

Mm. I got a Z38xxxxx with stick dial ?