Irrational irritation and the disappearance of the 5711 and the Stern interviews.

[Custom02]

It was interesting to read much of the reaction to Patek’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and perhaps even more interesting to read the comments that have followed Thierry Stern’s interview (not just here but also on Hodinkee etc).

In my opinion it’s very easy to understand the dominant part of PP’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and that the comments he’s made in these various articles have come from a honest, frank perspective and more importantly are correct.

Firstly, what he said about IWC’s failure to revert back to manufacturing and selling more expensive having moved more mainly to steel at some point in the past is true. IWC is a company of some historical note and make some nicely designed watches which are good value for money but surely no one could question that they are not in the top tier in terms of how well they are made and the prices they command. Although it hard to judge fairly without an awareness of just where they stood prior to this switch (before my time i suspect).

Secondly, his comments regarding AP being a one-watch company are also undeniably correct. That one model and it’s clunky bigger brother the Offshore is now the entire brand. What started as a few different versions in the mid 2000’s, the Navy, the Safari, is now just a huge mess of various materials, sizes, metals and ceramics, complications and non-complications that are chronologically hard to follow let alone know what they’re called or what the model number might be.

Even people that are very very interested in watches would now see an Royal Oak, acknowledge that it’s a Royal Oak and that’s where the conversation with themselves or with others stops. It’s just not interesting enough to continue, that’s how hard it’s been milked. I wish them good luck in continued financial success in that endeavour but rate they’re chances of launching a successful model separate to the Royal Oak as almost zero. Many AP enthusiast’s have been irritated by Thierry Stern putting the company down but ask the same people which non-RO models they own or plan to own and for the most part they won’t have an answer.

Finally, it is quite clear that PP see it itself as a company that does not want to make products where the main motive of buying them is to show-off. Or at least not show-off in an such a blatant way that even people who aren’t watch enthusiasts in anyway whatsoever are are to spot a watch they make as something very expensive a mile away.

A yellow gold Rolex day-date is a watch that is deliberately designed and marketed with the sole intention of conveying to others that the owner is wearing an expensive watch. A rose gold AP royal-oak serves the same purpose. They are big, highly visible and really and truly anyone that denies that is deluding themselves. It’s not to say that there’s anything wrong with that, showing-off can serve a purpose for certain people at certain times. That’s a fact of life and it’s fine.

5711’s had been made for a long time and despite them being made of steel and relatively modestly had started have started to fall into this category. The joke in affluent London circles is that a steel nautilus is the perfect show-offs watch because EVERYBODY knows as hard to obtain and costly yet when wearing one you could never really being accused of being vulgar because I (as said before) its steel and a reasonable size.

The vast vast majority of 5711 owners did not acquire one with that in mind but through chance and probably social media being a major proponent it’s just where it ended up. From the company’s perspective you could almost call it a stroke of bad luck, although amply compensated for by the enormous extra revenue and profit that has been made from the sale of less in demand models they make that has come as a consequence of the Nautilus’s popularity.

So PP decided to take back some control of their own image, something they should be applauded for. What I find mysterious is why they continue to make the rose gold version and even more notably the rose gold 5980. The rose gold 5980 ranks alongside even the most extreme rolexes or ap’s in serving the sole purpose of being noticed........by everyone.

[Chute]

Very thoughtful post.
I wonder if the elimination of the Nautilus 5711 will lead to the end of the entire line.
If PP doesn’t want to go down the road of AP and become a one watch company, it would make sense if they get rid of the entire line.
The Nautilus was always a watch designed by someone other that PP so it would make sense to eliminate the line entirely.
Maybe the expansion of the Aquanaut line is their way of expanding something that entirely belongs to PP.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Custom02

It was interesting to read much of the reaction to Patek’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and perhaps even more interesting to read the comments that have followed Thierry Stern’s interview (not just here but also on Hodinkee etc).

In my opinion it’s very easy to understand the dominant part of PP’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and that the comments he’s made in these various articles have come from a honest, frank perspective and more importantly are correct.

Firstly, what he said about IWC’s failure to revert back to manufacturing and selling more expensive having moved more mainly to steel at some point in the past is true. IWC is a company of some historical note and make some nicely designed watches which are good value for money but surely no one could question that they are not in the top tier in terms of how well they are made and the prices they command. Although it hard to judge fairly without an awareness of just where they stood prior to this switch (before my time i suspect).

Secondly, his comments regarding AP being a one-watch company are also undeniably correct. That one model and it’s clunky bigger brother the Offshore is now the entire brand. What started as a few different versions in the mid 2000’s, the Navy, the Safari, is now just a huge mess of various materials, sizes, metals and ceramics, complications and non-complications that are chronologically hard to follow let alone know what they’re called or what the model number might be.

Even people that are very very interested in watches would now see an Royal Oak, acknowledge that it’s a Royal Oak and that’s where the conversation with themselves or with others stops. It’s just not interesting enough to continue, that’s how hard it’s been milked. I wish them good luck in continued financial success in that endeavour but rate they’re chances of launching a successful model separate to the Royal Oak as almost zero. Many AP enthusiast’s have been irritated by Thierry Stern putting the company down but ask the same people which non-RO models they own or plan to own and for the most part they won’t have an answer.

Finally, it is quite clear that PP see it itself as a company that does not want to make products where the main motive of buying them is to show-off. Or at least not show-off in an such a blatant way that even people who aren’t watch enthusiasts in anyway whatsoever are are to spot a watch they make as something very expensive a mile away.

A yellow gold Rolex day-date is a watch that is deliberately designed and marketed with the sole intention of conveying to others that the owner is wearing an expensive watch. A rose gold AP royal-oak serves the same purpose. They are big, highly visible and really and truly anyone that denies that is deluding themselves. It’s not to say that there’s anything wrong with that, showing-off can serve a purpose for certain people at certain times. That’s a fact of life and it’s fine.

5711’s had been made for a long time and despite them being made of steel and relatively modestly had started have started to fall into this category. The joke in affluent London circles is that a steel nautilus is the perfect show-offs watch because EVERYBODY knows as hard to obtain and costly yet when wearing one you could never really being accused of being vulgar because I (as said before) its steel and a reasonable size.

The vast vast majority of 5711 owners did not acquire one with that in mind but through chance and probably social media being a major proponent it’s just where it ended up. From the company’s perspective you could almost call it a stroke of bad luck, although amply compensated for by the enormous extra revenue and profit that has been made from the sale of less in demand models they make that has come as a consequence of the Nautilus’s popularity.

So PP decided to take back some control of their own image, something they should be applauded for. What I find mysterious is why they continue to make the rose gold version and even more notably the rose gold 5980. The rose gold 5980 ranks alongside even the most extreme rolexes or ap’s in serving the sole purpose of being noticed........by everyone.

Well said. I was trying to make myself an AP collector but after two ROs, it is hard to make the next purchase. The only thing I want would be a RO but the AD won't sell me one as I don't have a long purchase history. (Chicken and egg)

I tried to acquire a Reissue when it was launched and was told that it was for their VIP client and then six months later I was contacted by the AD twice to see if I was still interested to the one they have in-stock. So that pretty much sums up where AP is today.

[Pateks]

Great post OP and I applaud what Patek is doing. There are many of us that have been buying the brand for years and I for one have no problem with Patek mixing it up. If you are a fan of the company and its offerings, eliminating one watch from hundreds should not be an issue. Plenty others they make that I would want to buy.

[HMHM]

Originally Posted by Chute

Very thoughtful post.
I wonder if the elimination of the Nautilus 5711 will lead to the end of the entire line.
If PP doesn’t want to go down the road of AP and become a one watch company, it would make sense if they get rid of the entire line.
The Nautilus was always a watch designed by someone other that PP so it would make sense to eliminate the line entirely.
Maybe the expansion of the Aquanaut line is their way of expanding something that entirely belongs to PP.

But if they eliminate the Nautilus who’s going to buy the dress watches to get the Nautilus? Previously most of the dress watches were left in the display cabinet and given 10% discount to offload them. There is still a 6006g in my AD waiting to be sold. 5212 is also coming down to a reasonable price after the initial hype.
Patek makes great watches but they are not capturing the audience in the same way that Rolex does. And I feel that TS is looking to make the Nautilus exclusive like the Daytona line of Rolex to increase the appeal of the other stuffs. Rolex can even get people go crazy for a coloured OP dial!

[Tavi]

Fantastic perspective, thanks for posting! I happen to be very very happy with the dress watches Patek makes and was never into the Nautilus line.

However, the Aquanaut line is interesting as a sportier alternative...wouldn't you think that with the departure of the 5711, all the attention will turn to the already highly sought after Aquanaut?

[Uros]

Intentions are ok but what to do with market which wants nautilus and aquanaut from PP? No way they will eliminate entire steel offer of Nautilus, on the contrary, with this move whatever they issue will again be most desirable. It wasnt easy move and it should be respected, however, by not giving market what they want dont think they will create demand for other models...people will not start buying gold annual calendars for 50k or caltravas because there is no 5711, they will just shift to 5712 etc.

In any case whatever is done to end this steel watches madness on the market is more than welcomed, however, believe they should have tried to address grey market before anything else...


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[mattg6]

Love the post. IMV it’s a design / execution issue. Discontinuing it is one [artificial] way to go, but if instead they just made better looking and fitting models that everyone wanted it would solve itself.

If patek offered a 2499 or 5970 at retail prices the balance of the portfolio would shift immediately.

I love my 5170p and 5205g, but there’s no denying the 5711/5712 look better *to the average person* as an entire design package. What may have become a status symbol chase today is rooted in the fact that they’re just the best looking models

The nautilus is so appealing because of its size, how practical it is and how accessible it is.

Practical: the average person wants an all metal watch because it works in all settings

Accessible: once the bracelet is sized the customer is set to wear it comfortably. Leather straps take time to break in and adjust to, getting used to a deployant or going with a pin buckle which leaves the weight unbalanced

Size: just perfect proportions of the nautilus. Anything else patek makes with similar sizing (5970, 2499) transact at massive valuations

And nearly everyone likes blue. The blue dial of my 5170p or 5205g, or any of the other recent models are much more beautiful than the 5711’s dial is, but the proportions and overall fit of those watches just aren’t nearly as good for the average wrist

[AK797]

As I said on the other thread I don't like the cheap and arrogant shots coming from this once humble 5167 wearing man who was always into watches but ignorant about the market, with his big blundering comments on wishing to disco the 5711 a few years ago so as to reduce its importance, and claiming the new Pilot watch in SS at a cheap price would give young and new buyers a chance to own a PP. Just stick to talking about PP and not any other brands.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Uros

In any case whatever is done to end this steel watches madness on the market is more than welcomed, however, believe they should have tried to address grey market before anything else...

I don’t see anything that is going to stop the “steel madness” as long as the watch itself holds it’s value. For full disclosure, I define “hold it’s value” as being able to sell the watch for 75% or more than what was paid for it. Selling above retail is a new phenomenon and nobody knows how long that will last. Maybe another month...maybe forever.

Steel is much more practical for most lifestyles. It goes with everything. I just don’t see any sort of reversal of that trend and never will gold or platinum become dominant simply because many people can’t afford it, many don’t want the attention PMs attract, and gold will get beat to hell even if you’re a desk jockey.

[Token74]

I don’t really care about the discontinuation of the 5711, and actually i think the rationale behind the decision makes sense.

But, I don’t think it’s very classy to be taking pot shots at the opposition, and surely the one thing Patek has to be is classy.

I respect Patek watches enormously and love my 5990, but i have fallen out of love with the brand a little. It’s a bit too stuffy and superior for my taste. AP on the other hand is absolutely my kind of brand and every interaction has been superb.

If TS wants to attract a younger audience then he should do that by changing the way Patek present themselves a little.

I may well add more Pateks to my collection, but i will be buying into the watches not the brand. With AP, I will be buying into both, so much easier to part with the cash.


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[scurfa]

I don’t see how they can take pot shots at AP as they released the Royal Oak in 1972 and Patek followed 2 years later with the Nautilus using a very similar design and the same movement, both have turned out fine watches but the limited availability tactic from Patek has in my opinion back fired.

[Xerxes77]

I think PP try to follow AP strategy ...... they close many dealers in different country, some of this AD have a relationship with PP more then 30 years when nobody or almost nobody no want Nautilus and they sell it with discount.... remember this time guys? It’s not to long time ago..... let’s say 5-6 years ago.... and the watch that make Nautilus famous was 5711 then people who can achieve a 5711 start to like other Nautilus and in 2017 start the craziness.....
I remember in 2017 January in Spain, Barcelona I can buy a 5726 steel with bracelet but not like the white dial.....

So, what Mr. Stern try to convince us? That they not copy ideea of AP to make a steel watch with integrated bracelet made of steel and cost like a gold Rolex?

I say that sell of Patek will slow down seriously when they will decide to not do anymore Nautilus collection...... because if you sustain you don’t want to become like AP a single model brand..... then show us..... cut all Nautilus collection and make other and let see how many pieces you will sell......
If we check we will see that aprox all other watch from other collection that Nautilus and Aquanaut the rest of the pieces are with 20-30% less on secondary market....

Also Mr. Stern explain that want to sell next model who follow 5711 only in PP saloon that means if you don’t live in Geneva,Paris or London you will not have it....and the show will go on

I think Mr. Stern was a really gentlemen if they don’t talk about PP by comparing with other brand....brand who give watch ideea to PP and now that watches sell almost the rest of PP collections

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Token74

I respect Patek watches enormously and love my 5990, but i have fallen out of love with the brand a little. It’s a bit too stuffy and superior for my taste. AP on the other hand is absolutely my kind of brand and every interaction has been superb.

If TS wants to attract a younger audience then he should do that by changing the way Patek present themselves a little.

I may well add more Pateks to my collection, but i will be buying into the watches not the brand. With AP, I will be buying into both, so much easier to part with the cash.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn’t agree with you more here and very eloquently said.

I’ve tried with Patek - and I will never try again. In a way, I couldn’t care less what they do because I’m not going to fall for the game they want to play. The AD I’ve tried to build a relationship came across as snobbish and uninterested in even hearing what I wanted and why. The message was “buy 2 or 3 of these Complications nobody wants” and then we can talk about what you really want.

AP isn’t perfect (nobody is)...but I sure as hell am willing to invest my time with a brand that I think is doing their best given the total chaos that’s absorbed the market these days.

[jamerson80]

I may be in the perceived minority that want the 5711 because I genuinely like it. I remember browsing through the various websites back in 2004 while in med school thinking, "What watch would I treat myself with once I finish all of my training?" when I came across the simple date only Nautilus and felt my search had ended. Fast forward to 2016 when I was able to treat myself given finances, and not knowing anything about the hype walked into the PP boutique in Beverly Hills where the sales associates updated me on the current state of the watch (i.e. unobtainable).

What has made it difficult for me is that there are few non sports models in the PP lineup I genuinely like. I refused to buy a watch I didn't like just to get a shot at the 5711, but over the past 2 years added a 5205G, 5168G, the new square 24 for my wife and, ironically, the updated 7118 for my wife.

Still holding out hope that they release an integrated bracelet sports watch I will like, but at this point, disappointment and I have become good friends.

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[NYG1121]

I give them credit but it is a very risky move. Many newer watch enthusiasts tuned into patek because of the allure of the nautilus. I dont think they will be lining up to buy a calatrava any time soon. Maybe rolex is trying the same with the datejust only displays at all the stores/boutiques. Same with AP and the code 11:59 line. Cant force a trend as much as these brands want to.

[jamerson80]

Originally Posted by NYG1121

I give them credit but it is a very risky move. Many newer watch enthusiasts tuned into patek because of the allure of the nautilus. I dont think they will be lining up to buy a calatrava any time soon. Maybe rolex is trying the same with the datejust only displays at all the stores/boutiques. Same with AP and the code 11:59 line. Cant force a trend as much as these brands want to.

For several years myself and many of my colleagues have expressed thoughts that the Calatrava and Datejust are "old man" watches. Eliminating a sports model without offering a replacement would make one think PP chooses to cater to more "traditional" buyers. Nothing wrong with that, it's their business to do what they please. I do have a feeling that we will be getting an updated replacement, however. Will be interested to see how these "Bravo/Good riddance/Smart decision to dump the SS watch detracting from the rest of their lineup" threads will fare if and when it happens.

[Pateks]

Why does everyone keep saying that Patek is getting rid of the Nautilus line. They are discontinuing a watch that has had a 15 year run and replacing it with something more modern. Give Thierry and Patek some credit. They probably spent months debating this decision.

[Ichiran]

Agreed with OP's post. In fact most of his statements in that interview were not new - they have been raised before, and in some cases more than once. I can understand why some members have issues with Thierry Stern talking about other brands; but to me, he was just explaining his rationale for not expanding the Nautilus line aggressively to satiate the overwhelming market demand, which a lot of people do not understand from a commercial perspective. He was also addressing a portion of Nautilus enthusiasts why he was not planning to meet their demands because of the going concern of his brand.

Personally, I'm glad Patek persisted with several model lines for hobbyists to buy into. There are also handcraft pieces for people who appreciate fine art. They have done well for over a century and I trust he knows what he is doing.

[huydoan]

Originally Posted by HMHM

But if they eliminate the Nautilus who’s going to buy the dress watches to get the Nautilus? Previously most of the dress watches were left in the display cabinet and given 10% discount to offload them. There is still a 6006g in my AD waiting to be sold. 5212 is also coming down to a reasonable price after the initial hype.
Patek makes great watches but they are not capturing the audience in the same way that Rolex does. And I feel that TS is looking to make the Nautilus exclusive like the Daytona line of Rolex to increase the appeal of the other stuffs. Rolex can even get people go crazy for a coloured OP dial!

I'm interested in 6006g. Could you pm me the email of this AD? many thanks.

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by Custom02

It was interesting to read much of the reaction to Patek’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and perhaps even more interesting to read the comments that have followed Thierry Stern’s interview (not just here but also on Hodinkee etc).

In my opinion it’s very easy to understand the dominant part of PP’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and that the comments he’s made in these various articles have come from a honest, frank perspective and more importantly are correct.

Firstly, what he said about IWC’s failure to revert back to manufacturing and selling more expensive having moved more mainly to steel at some point in the past is true. IWC is a company of some historical note and make some nicely designed watches which are good value for money but surely no one could question that they are not in the top tier in terms of how well they are made and the prices they command. Although it hard to judge fairly without an awareness of just where they stood prior to this switch (before my time i suspect).

Secondly, his comments regarding AP being a one-watch company are also undeniably correct. That one model and it’s clunky bigger brother the Offshore is now the entire brand. What started as a few different versions in the mid 2000’s, the Navy, the Safari, is now just a huge mess of various materials, sizes, metals and ceramics, complications and non-complications that are chronologically hard to follow let alone know what they’re called or what the model number might be.

Even people that are very very interested in watches would now see an Royal Oak, acknowledge that it’s a Royal Oak and that’s where the conversation with themselves or with others stops. It’s just not interesting enough to continue, that’s how hard it’s been milked. I wish them good luck in continued financial success in that endeavour but rate they’re chances of launching a successful model separate to the Royal Oak as almost zero. Many AP enthusiast’s have been irritated by Thierry Stern putting the company down but ask the same people which non-RO models they own or plan to own and for the most part they won’t have an answer.

Finally, it is quite clear that PP see it itself as a company that does not want to make products where the main motive of buying them is to show-off. Or at least not show-off in an such a blatant way that even people who aren’t watch enthusiasts in anyway whatsoever are are to spot a watch they make as something very expensive a mile away.

A yellow gold Rolex day-date is a watch that is deliberately designed and marketed with the sole intention of conveying to others that the owner is wearing an expensive watch. A rose gold AP royal-oak serves the same purpose. They are big, highly visible and really and truly anyone that denies that is deluding themselves. It’s not to say that there’s anything wrong with that, showing-off can serve a purpose for certain people at certain times. That’s a fact of life and it’s fine.

5711’s had been made for a long time and despite them being made of steel and relatively modestly had started have started to fall into this category. The joke in affluent London circles is that a steel nautilus is the perfect show-offs watch because EVERYBODY knows as hard to obtain and costly yet when wearing one you could never really being accused of being vulgar because I (as said before) its steel and a reasonable size.

The vast vast majority of 5711 owners did not acquire one with that in mind but through chance and probably social media being a major proponent it’s just where it ended up. From the company’s perspective you could almost call it a stroke of bad luck, although amply compensated for by the enormous extra revenue and profit that has been made from the sale of less in demand models they make that has come as a consequence of the Nautilus’s popularity.

So PP decided to take back some control of their own image, something they should be applauded for. What I find mysterious is why they continue to make the rose gold version and even more notably the rose gold 5980. The rose gold 5980 ranks alongside even the most extreme rolexes or ap’s in serving the sole purpose of being noticed........by everyone.

Where PP is dull and in need of some serious pizazz, AP is contemporary and AP is moving forward. A CEO of a company with as much legacy as PP, comes across tactless and crass, taking potshots at other brands, kettle calling the pot black almost.

Take what you wrote about the DD and gold RO, and replace that with the only watch grandmaster chime, and every word still holds. So the point is lost in that all watches are expensive trinkets used for social projection.

The SS discontinuation isn’t a brilliant master stroke as some are stating it to be - it’s finding a way to claim higher market value share on these models with whatever comes next, and also getting people to move up to PM models. Rolex is doing precisely that and is writing the playbook on how it’s done with managed scarcity.

AP is much more in command of their brand, distribution, customer experience and it shows a way for the rest of the high end luxury brands to follow.

PP has numerous issues at hand, competition is at an all time high with more compelling products across all categories. I’m not convinced discontinuing the SS model does anything to help PP without bringing anything exciting and new to market. They make well over 60k pieces a year and have ramped up capacity, so the story of we can’t make enough doesn’t hold.

[Vipes]

Originally Posted by Pateks

Why does everyone keep saying that Patek is getting rid of the Nautilus line. They are discontinuing a watch that has had a 15 year run and replacing it with something more modern. Give Thierry and Patek some credit. They probably spent months debating this decision.

Agree. I thought Patek is discontinuing the 5711 and having a replacement. IMO, nothing will change. They will introduce a new Nautilus and the hype will continue. I agree with the previous poster who said that Patek needs the SS Nautilus/Aquanauts to sell their other pieces (AC, PC, etc.). I’m seeing this with ADs who will get you something hot if you buy a slow selling piece. Same thing with AP; want a Jumbo? Buy a Code chrono. Nothing will change anytime soon with the big 3 (Patek, AP, Rolex); bundling is the game now for customers without a strong relationship.

[TheVTCGuy]

As a Patek admirer and hopefully future owner, I read this thread with interest, I appreciate all your opinions and think it is very interesting to see what comes out next.

[Murcielagoboy2]

Originally Posted by Custom02

It was interesting to read much of the reaction to Patek’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and perhaps even more interesting to read the comments that have followed Thierry Stern’s interview (not just here but also on Hodinkee etc).

In my opinion it’s very easy to understand the dominant part of PP’s decision to discontinue the 5711 and that the comments he’s made in these various articles have come from a honest, frank perspective and more importantly are correct.

Firstly, what he said about IWC’s failure to revert back to manufacturing and selling more expensive having moved more mainly to steel at some point in the past is true. IWC is a company of some historical note and make some nicely designed watches which are good value for money but surely no one could question that they are not in the top tier in terms of how well they are made and the prices they command. Although it hard to judge fairly without an awareness of just where they stood prior to this switch (before my time i suspect).

Secondly, his comments regarding AP being a one-watch company are also undeniably correct. That one model and it’s clunky bigger brother the Offshore is now the entire brand. What started as a few different versions in the mid 2000’s, the Navy, the Safari, is now just a huge mess of various materials, sizes, metals and ceramics, complications and non-complications that are chronologically hard to follow let alone know what they’re called or what the model number might be.

Even people that are very very interested in watches would now see an Royal Oak, acknowledge that it’s a Royal Oak and that’s where the conversation with themselves or with others stops. It’s just not interesting enough to continue, that’s how hard it’s been milked. I wish them good luck in continued financial success in that endeavour but rate they’re chances of launching a successful model separate to the Royal Oak as almost zero. Many AP enthusiast’s have been irritated by Thierry Stern putting the company down but ask the same people which non-RO models they own or plan to own and for the most part they won’t have an answer.

Finally, it is quite clear that PP see it itself as a company that does not want to make products where the main motive of buying them is to show-off. Or at least not show-off in an such a blatant way that even people who aren’t watch enthusiasts in anyway whatsoever are are to spot a watch they make as something very expensive a mile away.

A yellow gold Rolex day-date is a watch that is deliberately designed and marketed with the sole intention of conveying to others that the owner is wearing an expensive watch. A rose gold AP royal-oak serves the same purpose. They are big, highly visible and really and truly anyone that denies that is deluding themselves. It’s not to say that there’s anything wrong with that, showing-off can serve a purpose for certain people at certain times. That’s a fact of life and it’s fine.

5711’s had been made for a long time and despite them being made of steel and relatively modestly had started have started to fall into this category. The joke in affluent London circles is that a steel nautilus is the perfect show-offs watch because EVERYBODY knows as hard to obtain and costly yet when wearing one you could never really being accused of being vulgar because I (as said before) its steel and a reasonable size.

The vast vast majority of 5711 owners did not acquire one with that in mind but through chance and probably social media being a major proponent it’s just where it ended up. From the company’s perspective you could almost call it a stroke of bad luck, although amply compensated for by the enormous extra revenue and profit that has been made from the sale of less in demand models they make that has come as a consequence of the Nautilus’s popularity.

So PP decided to take back some control of their own image, something they should be applauded for. What I find mysterious is why they continue to make the rose gold version and even more notably the rose gold 5980. The rose gold 5980 ranks alongside even the most extreme rolexes or ap’s in serving the sole purpose of being noticed........by everyone.

I've got to say, you NAILED it with this post. 100% correct.

The point you made about Patek retaking control of their image is spot on.

I got rid of my 5980/1r because of the image it was projecting. What pushed me over the edge was, seeing on the same day, it being worn by a convicted drug dealer in the newspapers, a London landlord famous for pulling a gun out on his tenants, and being accosted by a guy in gas station head to toe in metal-plated Dolce Gabbana clothing how he had "a Patek like yours mate" but he sold it for a small profit and now couldn't get another... Classy.....

In London the Nautilus is the de facto choice of a certain phenotype; Phillip Plein, H-belt, G63 AMG, D&G Clothing etc - maximal status signalling - maximal moron - and that's just not me. The watch is part of a caricature of idiocy and this is extremely dangerous for PP.

Why? Well because such a brand association - the same that causes imbeciles to fall over their Yeezy's for Nautilus - turns off the people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars with PP every year on MR, PC, PCCs, and so on.

Leave South Florida/LA guys - travel to Moscow, Shanghai, Zurich, Bangkok, Beirut, etc - you've got 25 year olds rocking 5270's and 5370's and their dads have been buying Minute Repeaters for decades.
And believe me, Thierry Stern knows where his money comes from and he doesn't want to sabotage a brand image which is based on a one-watch line sold at a huge premium, to capricious social-media addicts (who will move on to the next zeitgeist FAST), only irritate his REAL customers.

Now when I said this on a earlier thread, I was excoriated by a bunch of imbeciles who scuttled out from under their rocks, calling me, alternately, racist, snobby, or daft. They couldn't take it that
a) their desires are commercially unimportant and
b) worse still, these guys are actually dangerous to the long term brand equity of PP and
c) they were too THICK to understand what brand positioning is.

What I find most amusing is that these self same people, who would walk past a discounted 5711 a few years ago on their way to a Gold Submariner, are now frothing at the mouth at the suggestion that they are anything other than enthusiasts.
I suppose that some of them are collateral damage - enthusiasts who have had their circumstances change and they lusted after a sports Patek then, and they do now and can now buy one only to find that the Instagram brigade have forced values into absurdity. I feel for them and I apologise for this post to you because this doesn't apply to you.

But for everyone else, you want one because "you saw it on Insta and it goes up in value." Let's not kid ourselves.
After all, ALL sports watches have gone into the stratosphere and people desperate to project status lust after them.
And that's fine - more power to you. Good for you. I'm happy for you.

But expect to be disappointed if you want Thierry Stern to build a business around supplying sports watches to "Miami Supercar Renters" - that is commercial suicide.
And be aware, that trends go through cycles - Patek sports will soon enter the realms of egregious fashion faux-pas (like the male perm or shoulder pads OR the Patek 3700 which you couldn't GIVE AWAY a few years ago). By then I expect that the insta-crew would have descended like locusts onto something new, leaving only the collectors that were here before....

Flame suit on. Good luck!

:-)

[Rushne]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I've got to say, you NAILED it with this post. 100% correct.

The point you made about Patek retaking control of their image is spot on.

I got rid of my 5980/1r because of the image it was projecting. What pushed me over the edge was, seeing on the same day, it being worn by a convicted drug dealer in the newspapers, a London landlord famous for pulling a gun out on his tenants, and being accosted by a guy in gas station head to toe in metal-plated Dolce Gabbana clothing how he had "a Patek like yours mate" but he sold it for a small profit and now couldn't get another... Classy.....

In London the Nautilus is the de facto choice of a certain phenotype; Phillip Plein, H-belt, G63 AMG, D&G Clothing etc - maximal status signalling - maximal moron - and that's just not me. The watch is part of a caricature of idiocy and this is extremely dangerous for PP.

Why? Well because such a brand association - the same that causes imbeciles to fall over their Yeezy's for Nautilus - turns off the people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars with PP every year on MR, PC, PCCs, and so on.

Leave South Florida/LA guys - travel to Moscow, Shanghai, Zurich, Bangkok, Beirut, etc - you've got 25 year olds rocking 5270's and 5370's and their dads have been buying Minute Repeaters for decades.
And believe me, Thierry Stern knows where his money comes from and he doesn't want to sabotage a brand image which is based on a one-watch line sold at a huge premium, to capricious social-media addicts (who will move on to the next zeitgeist FAST), only irritate his REAL customers.

Now when I said this on a earlier thread, I was excoriated by a bunch of imbeciles who scuttled out from under their rocks, calling me, alternately, racist, snobby, or daft. They couldn't take it that
a) their desires are commercially unimportant and
b) worse still, these guys are actually dangerous to the long term brand equity of PP and
c) they were too THICK to understand what brand positioning is.

What I find most amusing is that these self same people, who would walk past a discounted 5711 a few years ago on their way to a Gold Submariner, are now frothing at the mouth at the suggestion that they are anything other than enthusiasts.
I suppose that some of them are collateral damage - enthusiasts who have had their circumstances change and they lusted after a sports Patek then, and they do now and can now buy one only to find that the Instagram brigade have forced values into absurdity. I feel for them and I apologise for this post to you because this doesn't apply to you.

But for everyone else, you want one because "you saw it on Insta and it goes up in value." Let's not kid ourselves.
After all, ALL sports watches have gone into the stratosphere and people desperate to project status lust after them.
And that's fine - more power to you. Good for you. I'm happy for you.

But expect to be disappointed if you want Thierry Stern to build a business around supplying sports watches to "Miami Supercar Renters" - that is commercial suicide.
And be aware, that trends go through cycles - Patek sports will soon enter the realms of egregious fashion faux-pas (like the male perm or shoulder pads OR the Patek 3700 which you couldn't GIVE AWAY a few years ago). By then I expect that the insta-crew would have descended like locusts onto something new, leaving only the collectors that were here before....

Flame suit on. Good luck!

:-)

No flame suit required from my point of view.
I also feel for enthusiasts that have had their situations change and they all of a sudden find they can buy a grail or semi grail only to find they have been driven up by people that don't actually appreciate a piece for what it is, but merely as some kind of peacock display.

Maybe AD's should start verifying your authenticity as an enthusiast by showing them your TRF account created years ago before hype and some interaction with the community.
No wait... then there will be a grey market selling old TRF accounts

[Partekular]

OP is correct. PP is a ‘Veblen good’. Low volume, exclusive, exquisite, top quality horological, luxury item and discrete. I don’t want a tool watch, nor do I don’t want anyone to see my watches broadcast how much they cost. I wear them for me. I don’t want them to be noticed. Rolex watches scream “ROLEX!” No thanks.

PP has a certain style - newly reimagined in the 5320 and the 5172. The 5212 is an attempt to offer the horological interest and mechanical excellence in SS as an entry level piece in keeping with the PP essence.

The Nautilus and Aquanaut, were to my mind, PP design outliers trying to widen the market for PP but contradicting PP’s essence and to fight off the retirement grandad image of the older styles of beautifully made but dated. The newer PP cases, face, hand and lug design is slowly modernising the brand - when they get it right. Pity though that they are saving money by using paint (lacquer) not enamel on their new faces. Reducing the quality will kill the brand and pass the crown to ALS.


Apologies to one and all but I cannot see why so many people like the Nautillus/Aquanauts - other than for what’s inside them! The best SS tool watches are Rolex.

[Uros]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I don’t see anything that is going to stop the “steel madness” as long as the watch itself holds it’s value. For full disclosure, I define “hold it’s value” as being able to sell the watch for 75% or more than what was paid for it. Selling above retail is a new phenomenon and nobody knows how long that will last. Maybe another month...maybe forever.

Steel is much more practical for most lifestyles. It goes with everything. I just don’t see any sort of reversal of that trend and never will gold or platinum become dominant simply because many people can’t afford it, many don’t want the attention PMs attract, and gold will get beat to hell even if you’re a desk jockey.

Yes agree, was thinking more of specific hype for 4, 5 steel models fueled by social media and grey market. My steel Reverso is still my first pick for office days, Jumbo is for special occasions only:)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Partekular]

Chiscott_29 and Uros..

JLC Reverso! Excellent watch. Good taste!

But... white gold doesn’t scream GOLD and also goes with everything apart from breaking rocks, digging gardens or deep sea diving!

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Agreed with OP's post. In fact most of his statements in that interview were not new - they have been raised before, and in some cases more than once. I can understand why some members have issues with Thierry Stern talking about other brands; but to me, he was just explaining his rationale for not expanding the Nautilus line aggressively to satiate the overwhelming market demand, which a lot of people do not understand from a commercial perspective. He was also addressing a portion of Nautilus enthusiasts why he was not planning to meet their demands because of the going concern of his brand.

Personally, I'm glad Patek persisted with several model lines for hobbyists to buy into. There are also handcraft pieces for people who appreciate fine art. They have done well for over a century and I trust he knows what he is doing.

In fairness if FHB over at AP started trash talking PP I'd go after him as well, he's a completely different kind of businessman but has made a few mistakes as well, who hasn't, so they really all should just stay in their own glasshouses and not throw stones.

You can argue PP are taking cues from AP with their colourful Aquanauts and AP are taking cues from PP with their dressier Code and Remaster lines, it's all swings and roundabouts.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by Vipes

Agree. I thought Patek is discontinuing the 5711 and having a replacement. IMO, nothing will change. They will introduce a new Nautilus and the hype will continue. I agree with the previous poster who said that Patek needs the SS Nautilus/Aquanauts to sell their other pieces (AC, PC, etc.). I’m seeing this with ADs who will get you something hot if you buy a slow selling piece. Same thing with AP; want a Jumbo? Buy a Code chrono. Nothing will change anytime soon with the big 3 (Patek, AP, Rolex); bundling is the game now for customers without a strong relationship.

Exactly. Instead of selling you a $35K SS 5711 as a reward for buying $100K of slow movers PP will sell you an updated platinum 5711 for $120K as a reward for buying $500K of slow movers. It's all about the profit margin.