YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[solaire]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Rule 1: The Modern Holy Trinity is open to all manufacturers globally.

Rule 2: High quality, and timely, customer service.

Rule 3: The highest quality of hand decoration across the entire production.

Rule 4: Excellent reliability and accuracy.

Rule 5: High durability and a minimum of 50m WP rating.

What additional rules would you add?

Rule 5 does not work.

Why does high horology need a 50m WR? Adding UT Models this seems daft IMO. How many people go diving with a TOURBILLON

If anything rule 5 should be for their sports watches being 100m+ for those with no complex complications..so bye bye AP


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[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

The man has a horrible voice, but God help me I would put Dylan in there.

Who’s Dylan?


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[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Who’s Dylan?


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Bob Dylan. I was too lazy to write "Bob". Haha

[enjoythemusic]

Who is Bob Dylan?

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Who is Bob Dylan?

He invented the coaxial escapement. George Daniels just took the credit.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

He invented the coaxial escapement. George Daniels just took the credit.

love it.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Who is Bob Dylan?

The singer for the Wallflowers.


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[Easy E]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

The singer for the Wallflowers.


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I think that was Jakob Dylan, Bob's son.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I think that was Jakob Dylan, Bob's son.

If a bong has a column wheel, they probably invented that.

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

You are certainly entitled to your opinion..... but Rolex? Rolex's most complicated watch is an annual calendar GMT. Up until very recently they were relying on Zenith for chronograph movements. Their finishing is nowhere near that of higher end brands. They don't really innovate. They don't push boundaries. They don't hand finish 99% of their production.

Lange is not micro or an independent btw. They would go on your first category...replacing AP.

watch making, other than movements, and finishing, there's function, design, comfortability, and horology.

Rolex has the most recognized product lines, as well as considering they do have the largest part of the luxury watch market, yeah I'd think they get to have a seat at the trinity table.

If you're going to dock marks off Rolex for using a Zenith movement up to year 2000, PP and AP were using the JLC movements in their Nautilus and Royal Oak.

Lange make fewer watches than RM, and most people put RM under micro brands.

[italiafan]

Originally Posted by DonLee

watch making, other than movements, and finishing, there's function, design, comfortability, and horology.

Rolex has the most recognized product lines, as well as considering they do have the largest part of the luxury watch market, yeah I'd think they get to have a seat at the trinity table.

If you're going to dock marks off Rolex for using a Zenith movement up to year 2000, PP and AP were using the JLC movements in their Nautilus and Royal Oak.

Lange make fewer watches than RM, and most people put RM under micro brands.

But Rolex design is just plain clumsy and gaudy. How much can you write on a dial? How many times can you write “Rolex” around the interior edge of the dial-case?

Crown emblem
Rolex
Oyster Perpetual...
Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified
Model subtype...
Name of watchmaker’s dog...
Swiss Made

It would be like covering the entire back of a Ferrari with:
Prancing Horse emblem
Ferrari
Front Engine Coupe, Officially Certified Fast
812 Superfast
V12 with leather interior and carbon fiber options
Made in Maranello, Italy

With the word Ferrari painted around the entire perimeter of the car in a continuous ribbon.

If you don’t know what it is....so what?
The dial of a Rolex should have the Crown Emblem at 12 position.
Under it the single word “Rolex”
and below the 6 just say “Swiss”

That’s it.
They could take a page from Patek, or Moser...

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Something I began wondering: Breguet is sometimes mentioned, but very often at all, as part of an updated or new Top Three. What is holding them back in people's eyes?

[solaire]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

Something I began wondering: Breguet is sometimes mentioned, but very often at all, as part of an updated or new Top Three. What is holding them back in people's eyes?

The old Breguet is not the new Breguet under swatch.


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[solaire]

Originally Posted by DonLee

watch making, other than movements, and finishing, there's function, design, comfortability, and horology.

Rolex has the most recognized product lines, as well as considering they do have the largest part of the luxury watch market, yeah I'd think they get to have a seat at the trinity table.

Lange make fewer watches than RM, and most people put RM under micro brands.

Luxury watch market is a debatable time, with the modern day wealth. The price point for rolex is not luxury IMO. That is higher up.

There is nothing luxury about the submariner on your wrist.

Rolex won't be at the at the modern table.


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[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by DonLee

watch making, other than movements, and finishing, there's function, design, comfortability, and horology.

Rolex has the most recognized product lines, as well as considering they do have the largest part of the luxury watch market, yeah I'd think they get to have a seat at the trinity table.

If you're going to dock marks off Rolex for using a Zenith movement up to year 2000, PP and AP were using the JLC movements in their Nautilus and Royal Oak.

Lange make fewer watches than RM, and most people put RM under micro brands.

If we are talking about a Holy Trinity of watchmaking, a heavy emphasis should be made on movements. You mention horology; horology is the study of time, nothing else impacts horology except movements. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

Design and comfort are subjective.

I do not consider popularity a criteria. Most people buying Rolexes do so for the brand/marketing and hype. They have zero understanding of watchmaking.

For the record, I'd toss AP from the Trinity too. As far as Patek, yes they also borrowed movements. The difference though is Patek were building in-house high horology complications during that time period. Rolex's most complicated watch (up until the Sky Dweller I guess) was using a borrowed movement.

Regarding Lange, a reported 5000 watches a year is not "micro". Atleast not to me

[enjoythemusic]

Will state this again....

The good news is at this point in 2022, now that a light has been shined on the long-outdated Old School Holy Trinity 1960s list, is enthusiasts are looking elsewhere. Given a choice between PP and FPJ am sure a true enthusiast would choose FPJ.

Rolex is getting much respect for their overall efforts while maintaining quality, service, and pricing. We also should recognize Rolex's excellent efforts in supporting human endeavors.

Brands like Moser, Gronfeld, MB&F, Kari, Czapek... and Rexphi, Laine, etc also getting recognized for their incredible efforts.

Being 'big' does not in and of itself mean better. More is not better either. This is especially true imho if compromises and 'designing to a price' are being made at the corporate / management level. Why do half-hearted efforts on some pieces, yet top-shelf for other pieces? Perhaps this is why frustrated, and truly talented, watchmakers have decided to leave the cooperate world and go out on their own (or join others for 'and friends' timepieces). Some watchmakers may simply want to 'do their own thing' and the market rewards those who put in the time and effort (Laine, Kari, and Rexphi for example).

jmho

PS: It's also interesting who gives all their clients, not just a chosen tiny few, choices during the creation of your timepiece. This gives all enthusiasts such as myself the opportunity to truly 'make it yours'.

[italiafan]

In my mind there really are two “holy trinities.” One is for the general public and looking at a great watch as an award for hard work and success, perhaps some showing off and brand recognition is important. The second is for WIS nerds that love haute horology and understanding the movement, complications, history, and attention to detail are paramount. Then there is an honorable mention third group which are the fascinating up and coming young independent houses. If they survive they may end up in one of the other groups in 100+ years. For me I am still in learning process for third group...

For me...

First group:
Rolex
Cartier
Patek

Second group:
Patek
VC
ALS

Third Group:
FPJ
?
?

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by italiafan

In my mind there really are two “holy trinities.” One is for the general public and looking at a great watch as an award for hard work and success, perhaps some showing off and brand recognition is important. The second is for WIS nerds that love haute horology and understanding the movement, complications, history, and attention to detail are paramount. Then there is an honorable mention third group which are the fascinating up and coming young independent houses. If they survive they may end up in one of the other groups in 100+ years. For me I am still in learning process for third group...

For me...

First group:
Rolex
Cartier
Patek

Second group:
Patek
VC
ALS

Third Group:
FPJ
?
?

Spot on.

For Group 3, my picks would be:
1. FPJ
2. DeBethune
3. MB&F

I'm avoiding putting individual watchmakers in group 3, to me they would be their own category.

[GST15]

Originally Posted by djnick

someone remind me again why ap with only 1 watch model really after decades belongs in the holy trinity?

+1

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by italiafan

But Rolex design is just plain clumsy and gaudy. How much can you write on a dial? How many times can you write “Rolex” around the interior edge of the dial-case?

Crown emblem
Rolex
Oyster Perpetual...
Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified
Model subtype...
Name of watchmaker’s dog...
Swiss Made

It would be like covering the entire back of a Ferrari with:
Prancing Horse emblem
Ferrari
Front Engine Coupe, Officially Certified Fast
812 Superfast
V12 with leather interior and carbon fiber options
Made in Maranello, Italy

With the word Ferrari painted around the entire perimeter of the car in a continuous ribbon.

If you don’t know what it is....so what?
The dial of a Rolex should have the Crown Emblem at 12 position.
Under it the single word “Rolex”
and below the 6 just say “Swiss”

That’s it.
They could take a page from Patek, or Moser...

I agree completely. I never understood the need for all that on there.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by italiafan

For me...

First group:
Rolex
Cartier
Patek

Second group:
Patek
VC
ALS

Third Group:
FPJ
?
?

Three groups make sense as there's a lot of great diversity nowadays. So a Trinity Trinity

First group I'd swap PP for Omega.

Second group looks perfect

Agree, the third group is a bit tricky. FPJ, MB&F, and ____

[italiafan]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Three groups make sense as there's a lot of great diversity nowadays. So a Trinity Trinity

First group I'd swap PP for Omega.

Second group looks perfect

Agree, the third group is a bit tricky. FPJ, MB&F, and ____

The only reason I had Patek in the first group is the Instagram craze for Nautilus and Aquanaut. Pure showmanship for people who really, IMO, know nothing about watches, but they are nutz for Patek. It has actually caused a very slight distaste in me for my Nautilus 5726.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Three groups make sense as there's a lot of great diversity nowadays. So a Trinity Trinity

First group I'd swap PP for Omega.

Second group looks perfect

Agree, the third group is a bit tricky. FPJ, MB&F, and ____

Voutilainen, Rexhep Rexhepi, Dufour and many more...

[enjoythemusic]

Voutilainen, Rexhep Rexhepi... these two are reeeeeally tough to choose. Damn, it aint easy(!!!).

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by italiafan

The only reason I had Patek in the first group is the Instagram craze for Nautilus and Aquanaut. Pure showmanship for people who really, IMO, know nothing about watches, but they are nutz for Patek. It has actually caused a very slight distaste in me for my Nautilus 5726.

Perhaps but it also made your 5726 jump nearly $100k in value :)

[italiafan]

Originally Posted by DonLee

Perhaps but it also made your 5726 jump nearly $100k in value :)

Which I dislike. I have no intention of ever selling it, so it is “worthless/priceless” to me, but it may make me more of a target and now I have to think about paying some ****head insurance agency money to cover against a loss.

I’d much rather all watches I like are in plentiful supply at retail prices. I don’t mind the idea of having to order a special watch and waiting 6 months while it is built, that adds to the specialness. But these unobtainables are actually a huge negative to me.

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Originally Posted by italiafan

Which I dislike. I have no intention of ever selling it, so it is “worthless/priceless” to me, but it may make me more of a target and now I have to think about paying some ****head insurance agency money to cover against a loss.

I’d much rather all watches I like are in plentiful supply at retail prices. I don’t mind the idea of having to order a special watch and waiting 6 months while it is built, that adds to the specialness. But these unobtainables are actually a huge negative to me.

+1 for everything here.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by DoraTheExplorerII

+1 for everything here.

Another +1. Years ago I rode European and American subways wearing a PP 3970er. Had the Aqua on wrist visiting China, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore...

Thankfully it's safe around here to wear pretty much anything

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Voutilainen, Rexhep Rexhepi... these two are reeeeeally tough to choose. Damn, it aint easy(!!!).

Come to think of it. Most of the independents other than FPJ has a very limited available line. For example, if you like KV, Vingt8 is only choice for most of us mortals. (I am sure someone would argue that you can order anything but that's not for "normal" people)

Between Voutilainen and RR, I would choose KV *today* as it is still some what available. (I was just told that the production lead time is now 3 years and no new order will be taken?) But RRCC3 is just a dream for me, I was told I am on their interest list but we all know what that means.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by italiafan

Which I dislike. I have no intention of ever selling it, so it is “worthless/priceless” to me, but it may make me more of a target and now I have to think about paying some ****head insurance agency money to cover against a loss.

I’d much rather all watches I like are in plentiful supply at retail prices. I don’t mind the idea of having to order a special watch and waiting 6 months while it is built, that adds to the specialness. But these unobtainables are actually a huge negative to me.

This is like when the house you live in appreciated 10x but so what if you do not plan to move. Also, unless you downgrade, it would be more to buy the next home anyway. This price appreciation only encourages people to hoard instead of buying and wearing what they love.