Submariner "Zubmariner" Dial -

[ericthegreek]

It's my first post and I wonder if anyone can help me out here.
I've been looking for a nice vintage Sub to get my son for his 30th.
I beleive the reference at the time, early 90s, was the 16610.
The price is generally around the £8K mark which is fine. However during my research I noticed one advertiser that is asking 11k for the same watch. On further investigation it turns out that this is because it has an inverted "Z" shaped S for the Submariner font.
Can I ask if this is actually a genuine anomally or a rediallers fiction?
I'm not sure I'll be paying the extra 3k as there are plenty of excellent "normal" examples, but I'm interested to add to my limited knowledge base.
I've uploaded a picture but not sure if it is visible.
Thanks

[rcambrid]

I have never heard of this, for what that’s worth…

[Walster]

Rolex uses different fonts over time. Would not pay more for one type face over another. The purpose of the watch is to tell time. The font on the dial is just cosmetic and barely noticeable.

[ericthegreek]

I tend to agree, but there are many who like to chase the anomaly. and by doing so push the price up.
I also noted that there are a number of different bezel fonts used aswell for the same year. I attach 2 examples. This watch has the 5 with the tail.
Again is this standard for Rolexs of this period to have such a wide variety of different looks for the same reference?

[640ibimmerguy]

Interesting, I'm sure someone here will be able to help you and good luck. That's a great gift for your son.

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by ericthegreek

It's my first post and I wonder if anyone can help me out here.
I've been looking for a nice vintage Sub to get my son for his 30th.
I beleive the reference at the time, early 90s, was the 16610.
The price is generally around the £8K mark which is fine. However during my research I noticed one advertiser that is asking 11k for the same watch. On further investigation it turns out that this is because it has an inverted "Z" shaped S for the Submariner font.
Can I ask if this is actually a genuine anomally or a rediallers fiction?
I'm not sure I'll be paying the extra 3k as there are plenty of excellent "normal" examples, but I'm interested to add to my limited knowledge base.
I've uploaded a picture but not sure if it is visible.
Thanks

I own several (unworn) 16610s - bought as 'investments'. During the course of buying them, I've looked at many online etc.

I've never seen that dial before. I'm not saying (writing) that it's not correct, just that I've never seen it before - I don't like the look of it anyway.

I would never offer 'life advice' to anyone - and only speak for myself. If it was my dollar, I'd buy the best 'regular S' dial'd one I could afford.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[ericthegreek]

Thanks for looking and the sound advice. Judging by the stunners you've bagged over the years, I think you're judgement is pretty sound.
To be honest, even if I was tempted by the rarity, I'd never be able to justify £3k more just for a funny shaped "S".
I guess it was more out of curiosity that I was asking
Cheers

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by ericthegreek

Thanks for looking and the sound advice. Judging by the stunners you've bagged over the years, I think you're judgement is pretty sound.
To be honest, even if I was tempted by the rarity, I'd never be able to justify £3k more just for a funny shaped "S".
I guess it was more out of curiosity that I was asking
Cheers

No worries.

Good luck and stay safe bud.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by FrenchBigCrown

I own several (unworn) 16610s - bought as 'investments'. During the course of buying them, I've looked at many online etc.

I've never seen that dial before. I'm not saying (writing) that it's not correct, just that I've never seen it before - I don't like the look of it anyway.

I would never offer 'life advice' to anyone - and only speak for myself. If it was my dollar, I'd buy the best 'regular S' dial'd one I could afford.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

My P serial 16610 has the dial with the reverse Z, they are not particularly uncommon AFAIK.

[16610Swiss]

I have the same font on my 2001 P serial sub... Bought it at rolex in 2001 when it came out... They call this a flat font submariner unlike the round font you see mostly on subs.. Its not a reverse Z, the whole submariner font is flat... This font was only done once in the 90s and 2001 In collectors terms they call it flat S... Just like people call the Kermit insert flat4...

And by the way the insert on the watch you posted isn't correct. Should be a flat 4

[interestedwatcher]

I am currently wearing a 2001 16610 with the same flat S - I didn't pay a premium for it.

[EagleBear]

More common than we think, I was reading in a section series on Hodinkee called Reference Points. The article was called Understanding the Rolex Submariner, where they go in depth about everything from the first Sub to the most current. So in the article it shows the flat S being introduced with the Mercedes hands on reference 6204 and 6205 in 1954 and again throughout its history with the reference 6238 King Sub explorer Dial in 1955. Once again with the release of the 5513 with pointed crown guards in 1962, and showing up again in 1967 with the release of the 5512 meters first Matte dial. And the list goes on. It’s a great read if y’all have the time I can share it here if you’d like? Anyway the list is long and history is rich, show em if you’ve got em ;)


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[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

My P serial 16610 has the dial with the reverse Z, they are not particularly uncommon AFAIK.

Originally Posted by 16610Swiss

I have the same font on my 2001 P serial sub... Bought it at rolex in 2001 when it came out... They call this a flat font submariner unlike the round font you see mostly on subs.. Its not a reverse Z, the whole submariner font is flat... This font was only done once in the 90s and 2001 In collectors terms they call it flat S... Just like people call the Kermit insert flat4...

Originally Posted by interestedwatcher

I am currently wearing a 2001 16610 with the same flat S - I didn't pay a premium for it.

Originally Posted by EagleBear

More common than we think, I was reading in a section series on Hodinkee called Reference Points. The article was called Understanding the Rolex Submariner, where they go in depth about everything from the first Sub to the most current. So in the article it shows the flat S being introduced with the Mercedes hands on reference 6204 and 6205 in 1954 and again throughout its history with the reference 6238 King Sub explorer Dial in 1955. Once again with the release of the 5513 with pointed crown guards in 1962, and showing up again in 1967 with the release of the 5512 meters first Matte dial. And the list goes on. It’s a great read if y’all have the time I can share it here if you’d like? Anyway the list is long and history is rich, show em if you’ve got em ;)

I stand corrected.

Every day is a school day.

Thanks guys.

[JP.]

I've had two K-Serial 2001 Submariners. My old one had "flat S" dial and the current one has the more common standard S.

There has always been variation in these. Maybe they use different printing machines?

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by FrenchBigCrown

I stand corrected.

Every day is a school day.

Thanks guys.

No worries. Actually, both my Subs have the flat S - the other is a Mk1 Maxi 5513. I must try to hunt out one of those rare Subs with a normal S!

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

No worries. Actually, both my Subs have the flat S - the other is a Mk1 Maxi 5513. I must try to hunt out one of those rare Subs with a normal S!

[EagleBear]

Originally Posted by FrenchBigCrown

I stand corrected.

Every day is a school day.

Thanks guys.

I’m right there with you, Most times I feel like the more I think I know, The more I realize I don’t know. :)


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[Tavli3]

You will also see that dial on a few 168000 subs.


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[SaddleSC]

Yes...my 16613LB has the flat S dial...

[myporsche]

Good advice on this thread, cool variation of the flat S I didn't know about. Personally I would not pay a premium for it as the watch is very cool even without it. Good luck with the gift to your son, he is lucky I am sure he will cherish it.

[Db7566]

Originally Posted by EagleBear

I’m right there with you, Most times I feel like the more I think I know, The more I realize I don’t know. :)


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You have risen above dunning Kruger on rolex.


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[EagleBear]

Originally Posted by Db7566

You have risen above dunning Kruger on rolex.


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No way man I was their Guinea pig ;)


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