The Holy Trinity of watch brands...

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

We all know Richemont's ongoing comedic sadness.... so it would be a VERY bad idea for Breguet, though do agree the brand deserves much better.



Amen, but the problem is... it seems for some strange reason(s) some still believe this 1960s fable. Not a single person, not ONE PERSON, can tell us WHO voted for them and exactly HOW they became named as Holy Trinity.

i have a feeling the Holy Trinity in the 1960s was an age-old marketing play that now over 60 years later... which we all know has looooooong outlived its relevancy.

Food For Thought:
The year 1900 is to 1960
As 1960 is to 2020

Be smart, don't fall for the Holy Trinity Trap!

I’m not matter of fact certain, and won’t really defend this point, but I seem to recall reading somewhere along the way that the term Holy Trinity was dreamed up as a way to reinvigorate the watch market right about the start of the quartz crisis.

[RolexBHR]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

We all know Richemont's ongoing comedic sadness.... so it would be a VERY bad idea for Breguet, though do agree the brand deserves much better.



Amen, but the problem is... it seems for some strange reason(s) some still believe this 1960s fable. Not a single person, not ONE PERSON, can tell us WHO voted for them and exactly HOW they became named as Holy Trinity.

i have a feeling the Holy Trinity in the 1960s was an age-old marketing play that now over 60 years later... which we all know has looooooong outlived its relevancy.

Food For Thought:
The year 1900 is to 1960
As 1960 is to 2020

Be smart, don't fall for the Holy Trinity Trap!

Wholeheartedly agree with the Holy Crapity Trap we have been fed all along.

[enjoythemusic]

Thanks Easy E. Am really kinda ambivalent at this point about it since few really still believe in... tho some people seem quite 'religious' about it (usually to justify their life choices). Over the years have sought out facts, have asked a few timepiece magazine folks about this, and think it really boils down to "If humans say/hear something often enough...."

I'm truly loving the amazing choices we have today. Never has there been more of everything in every direction in horology. Plus it is 2022 and time has passed to the point that there have been truly extraordinary advances in horology since 1960. From metallurgy and synthetics to high-precision machines and lubrication. We could even add advances in the optical quality of....

But in the name of 'more happiness', if _____ makes you happy go for it. Enjoy YOUR time

[SoylentGreenChi]

Trying to establish what the big three is or should be is akin to debating whether or not the Dallas Cowboys are, in fact, “America’s Team,” and how and who designated this. Fun conversation if not taken at all seriously. BTW, Dallas is not “America’s Team” - that mantle, of course, goes to the New England Patriots, and I challenge anyone to say otherwise. I can prove my claim on an abacus.

Back to seriousness and watches: I 100% agree with this quote: “But in the name of 'more happiness', if _____ makes you happy go for it. Enjoy YOUR time”

[gliazzurri]

The whole idea and terminology is categorically archaic and based on another era.
A new century is here and much has changed. Out with the old and there are so many other players.
Frankly I see the nomenclature as an overused marketing ploy.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by HAL330

I do miss the old days when we talked horology, movement finish, and pedigree and less about investment value and hype... The hobby has changed.

Don't go. From time to time you can still see new threads on horology, finishing, new releases, handcrafts and aesthetics. There are many good members who talk about watches and share their love about watches here. Please hang around.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Have you looked at the number of patents AP has for the last decade? There are a number for the super sonnerie alone.

The idea of a trinity in watchmaking is weird and mostly an inappropriate carry-over from religion.

Perhaps, but a patent is just a patent and the innovations are sometimes never ever implemented. Most actually are not (I work in tech as an attorney, so I know this as a fact).

Also, if any or all innovations only make it into a Royal Oak, my argument still stands. This is a one model brand.

As for the whole idea of a trinity of brands, yes, I agree that it's ridiculous. Perhaps during a time when the watch market was many many times smaller and there were fewer high-horology companies that made watches in any kind of volume, this might have been a good marketing tool. But it just doesn't apply today.

[thekman]

Not that I care too much about who is the holy trinity but the way I just see it is it's a historic term used to describe the 3 most historically significant brands at a point in time. We could argue to death which 3 brands are the best but we would not reach a consensus, however, over the years the term has stuck to these specific brands. In my mind it's like calling MJ the King of Pop or Elvis the King of rock n' roll. We could all debate to the end of time if there are better pop or rock n'roll artists but for whatever reason these two artists earned this title at a point in time and it will remain theirs forever.

[CharlieHP]

Why holy trinity?

Quite simply because Vacheron, Audemars and Patek asked JLC to create an ultra-thin movement for them to fight against quartz. the JLC 920 movement was created in direct collaboration between the 4 brands.

This is how the Nautilus, the Royal Oak and the 222 were born with the same movement for common characteristics (ultra-thin, waterproof and reliable). The JLC 920 is still used by Vacheron and AP. The legend « holy trinity was born !!! »

Sorry for my english and guys, work on your classics! ;-)

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Dear Lord have VC messed up the messaging around the Fiftysix line. I see this misunderstanding being perpetuated on a lot of forums. It is ONLY the base time and date only that has a non-inhouse non-Geneva Seal movement and case. ALL other (day-date, full calendar, tourbillon) definitely DO have pretty nice inhouse movements and come with the Geneva Seal on case and movement. If you look at the Geneva Seal watches in the Fiftysix line they're fantastic with very nice cases and at very attractive price points particularly for the steel versions.

There's no misunderstanding, I know it is just the base model. It's exactly because just the base 56 was singled out that it feels like VC is trying to pull a fast one on unsuspecting customers. They just slipped it in there next to all the geneva seal watches in the line-up. It's kinda like walking into Hermes and they mix in a few wallets they bought off aliexpress into the wallet section. There wouldn't be any misunderstanding if VC didn't try to do customers dirty with that one.

If they had integrity, they would maintain the geneva seal standard up and down the entire 56 line. If they want to hit a lower price point, add a line under the 56 so there's no confusion.

[trackingtime]

JLC is very well deserved to be spoken in the same breath as the rest of the 3.
they still innovate, did you see their reverso grand complication?

thats why they are always referred to as the watchmaker's watchmaker

Patek, AP and VC uses their movement in their past before having their own (for mass produce pieces, not grand comps)

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by ajw45

There's no misunderstanding, I know it is just the base model. It's exactly because just the base 56 was singled out that it feels like VC is trying to pull a fast one on unsuspecting customers. They just slipped it in there next to all the geneva seal watches in the line-up. It's kinda like walking into Hermes and they mix in a few wallets they bought off aliexpress into the wallet section. There wouldn't be any misunderstanding if VC didn't try to do customers dirty with that one.

If they had integrity, they would maintain the geneva seal standard up and down the entire 56 line. If they want to hit a lower price point, add a line under the 56 so there's no confusion.

Well I dont disagree, and I dislike that VC did that. But here come’s a bit of whatabouttism. How transparent have AP been on their cal 5900 in their 15550 Royal Oak being a Vaucher movement? And that’s not a single watch but all 37mm watches in their flagship line having an outsourced calibre. There are just a couple online blogs that explicitly refer to Vaucher instead of glossing over this issue. A bad look for AP in my book.

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by thekman

Not that I care too much about who is the holy trinity but the way I just see it is it's a historic term used to describe the 3 most historically significant brands at a point in time. We could argue to death which 3 brands are the best but we would not reach a consensus, however, over the years the term has stuck to these specific brands. In my mind it's like calling MJ the King of Pop or Elvis the King of rock n' roll. We could all debate to the end of time if there are better pop or rock n'roll artists but for whatever reason these two artists earned this title at a point in time and it will remain theirs forever.

Well put. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Ichiran]

Some nomenclature stick, some don't. For one that has stuck around since the 70s says something, no? There has to be buy-in from the watch community for this nomenclature to stick for 50 years.

I can pay some journalists to bestow me the title "Sexist Man Ever" today but I am certain there will be zero buy-in (including my mom and wife) and this title won't follow me for even 1 minute, because no one recognises it.

I do love these 3 brands not because of the "Holy Trinity" badge, and said badge doesn't affect my purchasing decision in any way. I buy on the merits of these watches. I don't understand the toxicity surrounding a name in an enthusiast forum.

[ChetBaker]

Ichiran - I sure hope your wife and mom will not bestow upon you the title of most sexist man. Sexiest man? A man can hope :-)

[jingerman]

Never really had the connection to Vacheron to treat it as something within the holy trinity nor felt that it was spectacular…. A Lange and sohne is one that I thought broke through some design barriers in watchmaking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

Maybe a "Holy Trinity" of watches should be relegated to the "ash heap of history," along with childish nicknames.

Amen.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Well I dont disagree, and I dislike that VC did that. But here come’s a bit of whatabouttism. How transparent have AP been on their cal 5900 in their 15550 Royal Oak being a Vaucher movement? And that’s not a single watch but all 37mm watches in their flagship line having an outsourced calibre. There are just a couple online blogs that explicitly refer to Vaucher instead of glossing over this issue. A bad look for AP in my book.

Well, the initial post was about Richemont vs Swatch. I have no doubt AP will continue to cost cut the insides of their watches as much as possible. The whole "new" line of movements was created to reduce human labor and open the path to their 70k /year production. I almost see it as less offensive because they are taking a dump across their entire line so they are at least consistent. The divide between the the fleurier movement in the VC compared to the other Geneva seal movements is a lot greater than the difference between the fleurier and base AP in house IMHO. But no, neither is good. There is a reason why all the hotness is in indies, the Indy brands aren't scared of having humans spend more time than a coffee break to finish the watches.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by ajw45

There is a reason why all the hotness is in indies, the Indy brands aren't scared of having humans spend more time than a coffee break to finish the watches.

Agreed. Seems we're simply seeing majors and large 'independents' racing towards production qty and reducing features/whatever to increase reliability. Reduce costs, and increase reliability by reducing 'features' such as any decoration when it can't be seen, eliminate hacking seconds, etc to reduce warranty costs.

Meanwhile imho independents are far exceeding virtually everything (but the odd rare....) from 1960.

Am truly glad Maximilian Büsser said MB&F may peak output at ~300 pieces a year as ensuring their best quality and service are paramount. They have some new designs and ideas ready, yet want to work through current production orders according to Max.