Als

[Mrhenish]

Originally Posted by arbees319

They’re beautiful watches. You need one

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Didn’t you also get a meteorite Daytona on OF? Congrats on the incredible choices you have every morning!

[kohuti02]

Winding my ALS pack now, so hence a group photo IMG_0333 (1).jpeg

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by SoylentGreenChi

ALS makes great watches, and their movements - all can and do agree - are exquisite. In addition, the Lange 1 is a great introduction to the brand, capturing Lange aesthetics and also being a seminal reference in the rebirth of ALS. Final point on the Lange 1: what a cool concept using geometry and the golden mean for the dial layout.

That said, speaking personally, after doing a deep dive on ALS, I recommitted to Patek. For me, it came and comes down to case and lug design. Once I saw that every ALS has the same case/lug design, that aesthetic reality turned me off. I appreciate that Patek decided to invest heavily in their case designs (a topic covered in a recent issue of the Patek magazine). For instance, look at the case design and scalloped lugs of your 5905P and then look at the case design of any ALS. For me, that’s a differentiator - and the single biggest reason why I am in the Patek ecosystem and not that of ALS. If I had your current collection, I would look to add a 5227 or a 5172 next.

Totally agree with this. A point that is often mindbogglingly overlooked by many. People focus on Lange finishing but forget that literally EVERY LANGE has the same case...a circular case with 4 lugs attached by a screw from the inside. Patek basically has a case design for each of their references which is much more interesting and most importantly time consuming, expensive and for me, more attractive.

[lovetherolex]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

“When I saw the Datograph, for the first time in the first time, it was the 90’s at Basel and uh, in the window it was a scale 20 movement. I saw that and said wow, look at that. And then I saw the watch in real. It was amazing.
I say the Germans are kicking us. Okay. Now the Swiss are going to respond…. I am still waiting for the response.. Okay.
Because it was just amazing, this chronograph. The way it stands, the way it works, you have a three dimensional view. “
Jan 26, 2020 - Philip Dufour

This is the important part. More so than what some who have drank a brand’s kool aid and sunk tons of money into it as a result, profess they think, on a watch forum.

Follow the $, kids. Don’t be misled.

Also keep in mind that an acknowledged master like Philippe has knowledge of what makes good, that qualifies him to make these kinds of statements. The man knows what to look for, and he is loved by those who meet him for a reason.

[lovetherolex]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

He was being complimentary to Lange and there is nothing wrong with that. His own finishing is way above Lange and he is Swiss. Rexhep Rexhepi is the best finisher in the watch world right now. He traveled from Kosovo to Geneva when he was 12 and he apprenticed at Patek Philippe when he was 15. There are many other Swiss independents who finish (real hand-finishing) their watches to a higher degree than Lange.

I would take a RRCCII and Simplicity over any Lange without a second's hesitation. And there are many other Swiss brands I would take over Lange too where finishing is concerned.

But you have bought 19 Pateks to get to an enamel world time. Very interesting. I wish I was seeing the strength in your assessments, friend.

You tend toward quite opinionated and with a good bit of verve for one whose choices are to buy the dregs of PP which are surely not only unimpressive but overpriced, and be led so easily by the ADs in this regard. Your unwillingness to concede that Philippe may know more than you in these matters makes me think you mislead others often through the persistence in you opinions. Those who are not in the know ought to beware lest they be misled to also drinking the kool aid.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

But you have bought 19 Pateks to get to an enamel world time. Very interesting. I wish I was seeing the strength in your assessments, friend.

You tend toward quite opinionated and with a good bit of verve for one whose choices are to buy the dregs of PP which are surely not only unimpressive but overpriced, and be led so easily by the ADs in this regard. Your unwillingness to concede that Philippe may know more than you in these matters makes me think you mislead others often through the persistence in you opinions. Those who are not in the know ought to beware lest they be misled to also drinking the kool aid.

I'm a Patek fanboy and I bought watches I like. The enamel WT was a continuation of my Patek collection journey and the 19 Pateks are not a bundle to get the enamel WT.

I never said PD know less than me. I only said PD was being complimentary. By the way, people share their opinions in watch forum and others may agree/disagree. That's always been the case.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

He was being complimentary to Lange and there is nothing wrong with that. His own finishing is way above Lange and he is Swiss. Rexhep Rexhepi is the best finisher in the watch world right now. He traveled from Kosovo to Geneva when he was 12 and he apprenticed at Patek Philippe when he was 15. There are many other Swiss independents who finish (real hand-finishing) their watches to a higher degree than Lange.

I would take a RRCCII and Simplicity over any Lange without a second's hesitation. And there are many other Swiss brands I would take over Lange too where finishing is concerned.

With Rexhep, with some collectors I know that own his pieces (mainly Akrivia), they have stated that his finishing can be superb but can be hit and miss - sometimes on the basics unfortunately. Perhaps this is not the case on the RRCCII but it is on some of the Akrivias:

https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle...e-and-personal

"By no means, Akrivia can be compared to names like Philippe Dufour, F.P. Journe, Patek Philippe, or Greubel Forsey. To my surprise, the pictures —and not even my best to be honest— revealed things I wasn’t expecting to see considering the cult following and pricing.

If you look closely at the hammered finish on the mainplate around 1 o’clock, you’ll see that the pattern missed many spots around that one hole. Was I prepared to see this and write about it? No. Then comes the perlage that is not perfectly symmetrical nor properly superimposed. As far as the black polish goes, this is nowhere near the level of black polish brands like De Bethune or Greubel Forsey accomplish. "

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

This is the important part. More so than what some who have drank a brand’s kool aid and sunk tons of money into it as a result, profess they think, on a watch forum.

Follow the $, kids. Don’t be misled.

Also keep in mind that an acknowledged master like Philippe has knowledge of what makes good, that qualifies him to make these kinds of statements. The man knows what to look for, and he is loved by those who meet him for a reason.

I would say Lange has it on the chronographs. 1815/Datograph vs 5170 / 5172 / 5070, for similar money the Lange wins. I would say that the 5370 is better when you consider the whole package but at x3 the money. I would take the 5370 over the Rattrapantes from Lange (honey gold is a tie).

Once you get beyond the Dato/chronographs, I do think Patek wins in many many areas. Lange 1 classic is really good. However when you are talking QPs, PCCs, Zeitwerk, triple split etc. I find the Langes hard to read, clunky and big. The case designs and lack of strap choices are also abit boring.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Bearxj86

With Rexhep, with some collectors I know that own his pieces (mainly Akrivia), they have stated that his finishing can be superb but can be hit and miss - sometimes on the basics unfortunately. Perhaps this is not the case on the RRCCII but it is on some of the Akrivias:

https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle...e-and-personal

"By no means, Akrivia can be compared to names like Philippe Dufour, F.P. Journe, Patek Philippe, or Greubel Forsey. To my surprise, the pictures —and not even my best to be honest— revealed things I wasn’t expecting to see considering the cult following and pricing.

If you look closely at the hammered finish on the mainplate around 1 o’clock, you’ll see that the pattern missed many spots around that one hole. Was I prepared to see this and write about it? No. Then comes the perlage that is not perfectly symmetrical nor properly superimposed. As far as the black polish goes, this is nowhere near the level of black polish brands like De Bethune or Greubel Forsey accomplish."

Good share - I can't really comment about QC as I have only seen pics of AKs and RRCCI/II in IG but not up close (I don't know anyone who owns a Akrivia/RRCC). 1 thing about buying independents is we tend to only see their promotional images or prototypes that have been finished to the nines, and the buy is a leap of faith. But when we buy direct from independents, there is an opportunity to tell them during the handover of new watch when obvious flaws are noted?

Alternately can spend a bit more to bid at auctions...

My opinion - I value the finishing on anglage most and don't really look at decorations such as cote d geneve, perlage; and black polishing (although I was very impressed with Simon Brette's mirror polish in his concave screwheads). Hence, it gets to me when there are supposed to be sharp cuts on the bevels but it ends up curved. I have seen a few examples from IG and in Tim's videos.

[bondtoys]

Super interesting discussion, gents, please keep the comments going!

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by lovetherolex

But you have bought 19 Pateks to get to an enamel world time. Very interesting. I wish I was seeing the strength in your assessments, friend.

You tend toward quite opinionated and with a good bit of verve for one whose choices are to buy the dregs of PP which are surely not only unimpressive but overpriced, and be led so easily by the ADs in this regard. Your unwillingness to concede that Philippe may know more than you in these matters makes me think you mislead others often through the persistence in you opinions. Those who are not in the know ought to beware lest they be misled to also drinking the kool aid.

Ouch. Since the OP asked for a comparison between ALS and Patek it isn't surprising that some would weigh in more heavily on the Patek side.
I have 4 Pateks and 2 Langes, all dregs other than my Lange 1 Darth. I want to love Lange more than Patek, but they won't let me. Other than the 1815 Chrono, all the high complications are too big to wear practically. And, with the exception of the Odysseus, they're not suited for my trashy rural existence. And Lange won't sell me an Odysseus, dregs or not.
And, as someone else pointed out, Lange is a "one case fits all" watchmaker, similar to Rolex.

[ChetBaker]

I agree with the comments on Lange cases. They're all the same shape and design language. Imagine Lange releasing their manual chrono in a CDV or 5172 case.

[windingmybusiness]

You can have the best of both worlds with the new Tokyo exhibition references 6127G and 7127G. Look like a Saxonia with some Patek lugs slapped on.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The majority of both brands' watches are machined finished with some human buffing. At the top end, the finishing on Patek is as good as any micro independent we often see in this forum. Below are pictures of 6301P movements by SJX.

I am no expert, but some of the best finishing I have seen on a watch was on the Patek 5101P.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

I am no expert, but some of the best finishing I have seen on a watch was on the Patek 5101P.

I'm no expert too but I can see at least 5 interior angles on the 5101P. Patek's Tourbillon are finished to a higher degree than the other workhorse movements.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by kohuti02

Winding my ALS pack now, so hence a group photo Attachment 1376757

Holy cow. Impressive.

[jjnd08]

I went through this debate a few years back when I was going to buy my first piece from one of these two brands. After a lot of research and considering options, I went with a yellow gold Lange 1. To say the least, any time I pick up a Patek and I have my Lange with me I'm left feeling disappointed by the Patek and 100% reaffirmed in my decision on Lange.

[djnick]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I agree with the comments on Lange cases. They're all the same shape and design language. Imagine Lange releasing their manual chrono in a CDV or 5172 case.

FPJ uses the same case on all their watches too not a big deal

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by windingmybusiness

You can have the best of both worlds with the new Tokyo exhibition references 6127G and 7127G. Look like a Saxonia with some Patek lugs slapped on.

I don't think that quite works.
What Lange is known for are their movements. Those watches have a closed case back.
The case looks very similar to an A Lange, but I think most people are in agreement that is Lange's soft spot.

So wouldn't that be the worst of both worlds?

[vitalsigns]

I suggest disregarding the case design criticisms that object to the same or similar case designs across the Lange product range.

It's a valid consideration if considering a second Lange or multiple Langes, but I don't see the criticism as meaningful when considering your first and perhaps only Lange.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

I suggest disregarding the case design criticisms that object to the same or similar case designs across the Lange product range.

It's a valid consideration if considering a second Lange or multiple Langes, but I don't see the criticism as meaningful when considering your first and perhaps only Lange.

I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree. A watch is obviously more than the sum of its parts. What makes a great watch, at least to me, you need to take into consideration everything. The case is a MASSIVE part of the entire watch and also contributes to the total cost of the watch and how much value we associate with it.

Lange, because its not a vertically aligned manufacture uses 3 different case manufacturers, one of which is the same as the one SINN uses, SUG. Their case construction is basically a round case with 4 lugs screwed in from the inside of the case. It has its advantages but this is a much cheaper way to make cases than say a Patek 5811 which uses a forged case with a hinged design or other Patek cases with elaborate finishing on the case.

Ofcourse Lange makes up for this with superior finishing (on the entry level vs Patek) where one can argue you get more value as Patek varies their finishing depending on the price level whereas most lange is finished at the same level.

Regardless of whether you have 1 or 3 Langes, I think case design/construction is an important aspect imo

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by djnick

FPJ uses the same case on all their watches too not a big deal

Yes but FPJ makes what 800 watches a year? Plus they have watches with different cases, like Elegante, Sport lines as well.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm no expert too but I can see at least 5 interior angles on the 5101P. Patek's Tourbillon are finished to a higher degree than the other workhorse movements.

100%. Entry level patek is finished to a much more rudimentary level than the equivalent lange in the price range but in the higher end, Patek wins hands down.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Bearxj86

With Rexhep, with some collectors I know that own his pieces (mainly Akrivia), they have stated that his finishing can be superb but can be hit and miss - sometimes on the basics unfortunately. Perhaps this is not the case on the RRCCII but it is on some of the Akrivias:

https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle...e-and-personal

"By no means, Akrivia can be compared to names like Philippe Dufour, F.P. Journe, Patek Philippe, or Greubel Forsey. To my surprise, the pictures —and not even my best to be honest— revealed things I wasn’t expecting to see considering the cult following and pricing.

If you look closely at the hammered finish on the mainplate around 1 o’clock, you’ll see that the pattern missed many spots around that one hole. Was I prepared to see this and write about it? No. Then comes the perlage that is not perfectly symmetrical nor properly superimposed. As far as the black polish goes, this is nowhere near the level of black polish brands like De Bethune or Greubel Forsey accomplish. "

Yes but even with Rexhepi, the "case" is or was a massive attraction for the watch. By choosing Jean-Pierre Hagmann as his case maker for that particular series, it shows how much case construction/quality really matters.

[windingmybusiness]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

I don't think that quite works.
What Lange is known for are their movements. Those watches have a closed case back.
The case looks very similar to an A Lange, but I think most people are in agreement that is Lange's soft spot.

So wouldn't that be the worst of both worlds?

Touché!

[Jmaster]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm no expert too but I can see at least 5 interior angles on the 5101P. Patek's Tourbillon are finished to a higher degree than the other workhorse movements.

I’m just learning more about high-end finishing, and I read a lot of people taking about the number of interior angles as an indicator of exceptional finishing. is that really a correct indicator?

You can look at a GP Laureato skeleton and count like 20 internal angles for a fraction of some of the high-end Patek or independents. Certainly internal angles are an indicator of good hand finishing but by itself shouldn’t make a watch superior, IMHO.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Jmaster

I’m just learning more about high-end finishing, and I read a lot of people taking about the number of interior angles as an indicator of exceptional finishing. is that really a correct indicator?

You can look at a GP Laureato skeleton and count like 20 internal angles for a fraction of some of the high-end Patek or independents. Certainly internal angles are an indicator of good hand finishing but by itself shouldn’t make a watch superior, IMHO.

I'm not an artisanal watchmaker and just sharing my novice view. Depending on what you are looking for, interior angles don't make a watch "superior". Some people talk about interior angles because it is a sure sign of hand-finishing as current CNC/machinery is not able to mirror finish these sharp angles on bevels.

Then again, not all interior angles are the same. Some are beautifully done on convex bevels while many are straight down like a cliff (which can be cut by machine). Some anglage are very shallow (less desirable from finishing perspective) while some are very wide (more desirable). A combination of interior angles on wide and convex bevels is the crème de la crème where hand-finishing is concerned in my view.

Some like the industrial finish on the Rolex 3235 and that's fine also. It's up to individual preference.

[Jmaster]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm not an artisanal watchmaker and just sharing my novice view. Depending on what you are looking for, interior angles don't make a watch "superior". Some people talk about interior angles because it is a sure sign of hand-finishing as current CNC/machinery is not able to mirror finish these sharp angles on bevels.

Then again, not all interior angles are the same. Some are beautifully done on convex bevels while many are straight down like a cliff (which can be cut by machine). Some anglage are very shallow (less desirable from finishing perspective) while some are very wide (more desirable). A combination of interior angles on wide and convex bevels is the crème de la crème where hand-finishing is concerned in my view.

Some like the industrial finish on the Rolex 3235 and that's fine also. It's up to individual preference.

Thanks for the detailed explanations of difference type of internal angles. I certainly didn’t know the difference and your explanations are helpful. I can understand why a wide, mirror finished beveling with a convex bevel internal angle require the most precise hand finishing work.

I guess it’s more like I’m impressed by the finishing of that GP. Look at this picture of all the internal angles (not mine, just crop from a Blog to Watch article). I’ve handle this watch in person and seen it with a Loupe. The beveling finishing are certainly less consistent on width across the skeleton bridges. However, there are some very wide and convex internal angles with mirror finish. It just surprised me that this “mid-tier” brand has such finishing.

Any thoughts or observations on this?

[lovetherolex]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

By the way, people share their opinions in watch forum and others may agree/disagree. That's always been the case.

Thanks for your reply, but if you believed the above you wouldn’t have reported another member’s post expressing an opinion to counterbalance yours. Seems some opinions are more valid than others.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by Jmaster

Thanks for the detailed explanations of difference type of internal angles. I certainly didn’t know the difference and your explanations are helpful. I can understand why a wide, mirror finished beveling with a convex bevel internal angle require the most precise hand finishing work.

I guess it’s more like I’m impressed by the finishing of that GP. Look at this picture of all the internal angles (not mine, just crop from a Blog to Watch article). I’ve handle this watch in person and seen it with a Loupe. The beveling finishing are certainly less consistent on width across the skeleton bridges. However, there are some very wide and convex internal angles with mirror finish. It just surprised me that this “mid-tier” brand has such finishing.

Any thoughts or observations on this?

I can't really opine from the pic if all the interior angles are by hand but there are a few areas that are hand-finished below.

881236DC-9869-4B83-B979-8293377F7B42.jpeg.jpg

In my view it's a very great attempt where finishing is concerned.

Also have a look at the finishing on Romain Gauthier Logical One from sjx. There are convex bevels next to the interior angles done beautifully. But it is priced much higher than the GP above though.

Romain-Gauthier-Logical-One-Byzantine-11-768x538.jpg