VC Overseas vs PF Tonda vs Moser Streamliner vs Czapek: Rank them?

[Audevache]

Originally Posted by unsprung

I do understand, why some people say you should get a RO, if you want a RO. But I do not really agree on getting a 41mm RO even though you want a jumbo. As a current 15202 owner and former owner of a 41mm RO, in my opinion this is as much „settling“ as getting one of the other 4 instead. Yes, the 41mm RO does have more of a „bling“ factor than your 4 alternatives, but it‘s just so much bigger and less elegant than the jumbo and also compared to the Czapek or PF. You can of course still take it into consideration, but be aware that it‘s a lot different and will probably not give you the same satisfaction, as the one you really want.

As a 16202 owner, I agree, the 41mm RO are not the same as the 39mm, which has just the perfect proportions. The 41mm Overseas wears large but still ok on my wrist, the 41mm RO feels oversized.

[mikemargolis]

Hi All,

Mike Margolis here from Czapek Americas.

A few comments, take them with a grain of salt, because, well, you know what I do for a living.....

1) Re CWard, we no longer work with that designer. Would you? :)
2) We are not going anywhere, our last few years have been phenomenal, and we are well capitalized. (I am one of the shareholders)
3) You REALLY need to see one in person. Our bracelet is spectacular. We have microadjusters, the other guys do not. A couple people have called us out on lack of chamfering on the edges of the links on the 40.5, while our 38.5 has them. This was a design decision, not a financial one.
4) Platinum microrotor. Anyone else have that?
5) Bridge design? Anyone else as interesting as Czapek.
6) Support from the company AFTER you buy the watch. I don't see the Moser, VC or PF people here commenting

Watch on!

[unsprung]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

3) You REALLY need to see one in person. Our bracelet is spectacular. We have microadjusters, the other guys do not. A couple people have called us out on lack of chamfering on the edges of the links on the 40.5, while our 38.5 has them. This was a design decision, not a financial one.

VC Overseas does have microadjustment. Well, the 4500 does have it, but I can‘t imagine they got rid of it on the 4520. Don‘t know about Moser or PF.

[Djoker48]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

Hi All,

Mike Margolis here from Czapek Americas.

A few comments, take them with a grain of salt, because, well, you know what I do for a living.....

1) Re CWard, we no longer work with that designer. Would you? :)
2) We are not going anywhere, our last few years have been phenomenal, and we are well capitalized. (I am one of the shareholders)
3) You REALLY need to see one in person. Our bracelet is spectacular. We have microadjusters, the other guys do not. A couple people have called us out on lack of chamfering on the edges of the links on the 40.5, while our 38.5 has them. This was a design decision, not a financial one.
4) Platinum microrotor. Anyone else have that?
5) Bridge design? Anyone else as interesting as Czapek.
6) Support from the company AFTER you buy the watch. I don't see the Moser, VC or PF people here commenting

Watch on!

Thanks Mike. Love the fact that you take customer feedback so seriously.

Thanks everyone for their responses as well.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

I would agree that if you really want a RO, then get that.

I have also spent a lot of time with all of them. I like the RO a lot. But the 15300 / 15202 / 16202 are the only models I’d consider getting. The 15400 and up do not look or wear as nice as the Czapek or the PF. I find that the thickness of the more recent RO models totally takes away from the aesthetic of the watch and makes it look rather ordinary. But I would still favor them over the VC and the Moser.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The 15510st is actually .1mm thinner than the czapek. The bracelet on this gen is thinner than before too so if anyone hasn’t tried the 15510st yet it’s an improvement over the last few gens.

[wsrobert]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

Hi All,

Mike Margolis here from Czapek Americas.

A few comments, take them with a grain of salt, because, well, you know what I do for a living.....

1) Re CWard, we no longer work with that designer. Would you? :)
2) We are not going anywhere, our last few years have been phenomenal, and we are well capitalized. (I am one of the shareholders)
3) You REALLY need to see one in person. Our bracelet is spectacular. We have microadjusters, the other guys do not. A couple people have called us out on lack of chamfering on the edges of the links on the 40.5, while our 38.5 has them. This was a design decision, not a financial one.
4) Platinum microrotor. Anyone else have that?
5) Bridge design? Anyone else as interesting as Czapek.
6) Support from the company AFTER you buy the watch. I don't see the Moser, VC or PF people here commenting

Watch on!

First, do love that you engage here. It's really nice to see.

VC offers quick/micro adjust.

PF offers a platinum microrotor.

Bridge/plate/movement architecture is subjective. But Czapek does offer something objectively, very non traditional and visually interesting.

[rossi46]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

My thought would be get a Tissot prx or Christopher ward 12…save the rest and soon move into what you really want.

So much truth to this!

Other suggestion that was posted - get a 15300 and call it a day. Better wearablity than 15202 and the proportions are just as perfect. If you're going to spend $30k that's the one to get. Forget the pretenders and get the original.

[mikemargolis]

VC offers quick/micro adjust. Sorry, did not know that.

PF offers a platinum microrotor. I love PF from the back. I find the front to mostly be a bit ..... subdued. :)

Originally Posted by wsrobert

First, do love that you engage here. It's really nice to see.

VC offers quick/micro adjust.

PF offers a platinum microrotor.

Bridge/plate/movement architecture is subjective. But Czapek does offer something objectively, very non traditional and visually interesting.

[usmc_k9_vet]

Isn’t Moser’s blue enamel Streamliner with a platinum micro rotor as well? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Edit: confirmed. Moser’s blue enamel small seconds Streamliner has a platinum micro rotor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enjoythemusic]

Czapek did great at Sotheby's auction today. Some other brands timepieces didn't do as well as expected. Will still say get all four, they are different enough to justify :)

[mikemargolis]

Originally Posted by usmc_k9_vet

Isn’t Moser’s blue enamel Streamliner with a platinum micro rotor as well? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Edit: confirmed. Moser’s blue enamel small seconds Streamliner has a platinum micro rotor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, not familiar with Moser's new micro rotor movement.

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

Hi All,

Mike Margolis here from Czapek Americas.

A few comments, take them with a grain of salt, because, well, you know what I do for a living.....

1) Re CWard, we no longer work with that designer. Would you? :)
2) We are not going anywhere, our last few years have been phenomenal, and we are well capitalized. (I am one of the shareholders)
3) You REALLY need to see one in person. Our bracelet is spectacular. We have microadjusters, the other guys do not. A couple people have called us out on lack of chamfering on the edges of the links on the 40.5, while our 38.5 has them. This was a design decision, not a financial one.
4) Platinum microrotor. Anyone else have that?
5) Bridge design? Anyone else as interesting as Czapek.
6) Support from the company AFTER you buy the watch. I don't see the Moser, VC or PF people here commenting

Watch on!

I don’t know if the first one is tongue in cheek or not, but it certainly makes sense to me—either not using that designer or getting them under a more strict contract on what other designs they make for others.

To me, it made it look like a cheaper version of your pieces, which was a turn off on both what they did and made it harder for me (perhaps wrongly) to want to take the plunge for a Czapek. I might be the only person like that, but it just was how I felt. I do really like the Promenade.

[magicman]

Originally Posted by Bmats

I don’t know if the first one is tongue in cheek or not, but it certainly makes sense to me—either not using that designer or getting them under a more strict contract on what other designs they make for others.

To me, it made it look like a cheaper version of your pieces, which was a turn off on both what they did and made it harder for me (perhaps wrongly) to want to take the plunge for a Czapek. I might be the only person like that, but it just was how I felt. I do really like the Promenade.

Anordain makes wonderful dials, and Christopher Ward has a great case and bracelet, and other watches have nice movements. Only the Czapek has all in a cohesive package, so it stands apart even if elements are found elsewhere. I would rather have one perfect watch than 4-6 watches with perfect elements.

Not that the Czapek is perfect, but you get my point. It's the whole package that's important.

[ChetBaker]

I do want to add a bit of perspective on the value retention factor that appears to be coming back again and again. First off: if you cannot afford to lose some money, this is not the right hobby. Second: many RO references depreciated significantly in the past 2 years. If you bought a 15202 in 2021 this has been a very bad financial decision for you. So the value retention point is flawed. Third: you will not be able to buy a nice 37 or 39mm royal oak for the price of a Streamliner or an Antarctique - not at street price that is.

On the product itself: except for the jumbo refs, all royal oaks are mass-produced watches with barebones movement finishing (with the new 15550 even having an outsourced Vaucher movement). So you pay for the timeless design and the fantastic bracelet. Moser and Czapek are independents with a different value prop and exist for collectors who want to travel off the beaten path. No wrong choice either way - but stick with 37 or 39mm if you go RO.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by GB-man

The 15510st is actually .1mm thinner than the czapek. The bracelet on this gen is thinner than before too so if anyone hasn’t tried the 15510st yet it’s an improvement over the last few gens.

Oh nice. I was unaware. Glad to hear they fixed (my perception of) the problem.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

First off: if you cannot afford to lose some money, this is not the right hobby.

100% agree, as the past few years has brought about a different type of 'enthusiast' (scamming backpack grey 'dealers' for example) that may not be beneficial for horology long term.

Short term, the recent massive financial bubble has been exceptional, thanks for your recent support for horology everyone

Am curious, who here has joined the NAWCC, AHCI (Académie Horlogère des Créateurs Indépendants), NY Society, etc?

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

100% agree, as the past few years has brought about a different type of 'enthusiast' (scamming backpack grey 'dealers' for example) that may not be beneficial for horology long term.

Short term, the recent massive financial bubble has been exceptional, thanks for your recent support for horology everyone

Am curious, who here has joined the NAWCC, AHCI (Académie Horlogère des Créateurs Indépendants), NY Society, etc?

Ahci

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Ahci

[mikemargolis]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

100% agree, as the past few years has brought about a different type of 'enthusiast' (scamming backpack grey 'dealers' for example) that may not be beneficial for horology long term.

Short term, the recent massive financial bubble has been exceptional, thanks for your recent support for horology everyone

Am curious, who here has joined the NAWCC, AHCI (Académie Horlogère des Créateurs Indépendants), NY Society, etc?

I am HSNY member, Was NAWCC years ago, seems it's all old American pocketwatches, or at least it was then. Was also an IWJG member, not sure if that's even a thing anymore.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by mikemargolis

I am HSNY member, Was NAWCC years ago, seems it's all old American pocketwatches, or at least it was then. Was also an IWJG member, not sure if that's even a thing anymore.

IWJC, omg wow... yeah, and had to look 'em up to see what they've been doing.

Mike is also being VERY modest imho, as he's generously been a valued asset for lovers of horology for decades. Still kinda blows my mind the great guys from 1990s Newsgroups, Timezone, etc that are still very active. We are a passionate bunch.