Irrational irritation and the disappearance of the 5711 and the Stern interviews.

[ddaneh]

They probably discontinue steel nautiluses and only make all gold nautiluses. More $$$. Smart move.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by AK797

In fairness if FHB over at AP started trash talking PP I'd go after him as well, he's a completely different kind of businessman but has made a few mistakes as well, who hasn't, so they really all should just stay in their own glasshouses and not throw stones.

You can argue PP are taking cues from AP with their colourful Aquanauts and AP are taking cues from PP with their dressier Code and Remaster lines, it's all swings and roundabouts.

I probably won't be offended if I were FHB, because that was the conscious direction AP took previously and AP did not do badly by any measure.

These Swiss manufacturers struck me as a fraternity in the same way the German automotive giants are. Each of them is slightly different but they play to their own strengths, and together they are the kings of horology.

It will be boring if they all play the same strategy and sell the same products. I'm glad the watch world is what it is today with the choices we now have.

[brandrea]

Isn’t this the equivalent of Rolex eliminating / changing the Daytona? Wait ... they’ve already started down this road with the Submariner

I applaud PP for being bold and taking the risk. Besides, imagine if they decide to bring it back

[WatchEater666]

I think it's a great move to preserve long-term value of the brand. It's definitely weird seeing a vanilla watch without many complications selling for more than some of PP's gorgeous complicated pieces...

[Russell996]

I obviously haven't got the memo it seems a lot have received.

I don't see anything but a SS 5711 replacement on the horizon as part of the new range and still at a price point reflecting it's traditional place in the PP hierarchy.

It will be an interesting few months, I look forward to seeing what gets launched and particularly in the non sports departments.

[illiguy]

Originally Posted by ddaneh

They probably discontinue steel nautiluses and only make all gold nautiluses. More $$$. Smart move.

This was my take, as well.

[77T]

I guess Ford discontinuing the F150 without announcing its successor model would be news.

PP with the 5711 is stirring up some similar emotions.


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[Murcielagoboy2]

Originally Posted by russell996

i obviously haven't got the memo it seems a lot have received.

I don't see anything but a ss 5711 replacement on the horizon as part of the new range and still at a price point reflecting it's traditional place in the pp hierarchy.

It will be an interesting few months, i look forward to seeing what gets launched and particularly in the non sports departments.

this.

[Codik]

I’m annoyed because I actually like the 5711, got on a waiting list before it became totally crazy, and should have gotten one this year. Now I’m too much of pleb to get it’s successor - worry not, PP will continue to sell to the G wagon crew, but not to those peasants like me with a measly £25k to spend on a watch.

[Rushne]

Originally Posted by Codik

I’m annoyed because I actually like the 5711, got on a waiting list before it became totally crazy, and should have gotten one this year. Now I’m too much of pleb to get it’s successor - worry not, PP will continue to sell to the G wagon crew, but not to those peasants like me with a measly £25k to spend on a watch.

This right here is soul crushing.
Sorry to hear about the situation. I would be absolutely livid!

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I've got to say, you NAILED it with this post. 100% correct.

The point you made about Patek retaking control of their image is spot on.

I got rid of my 5980/1r because of the image it was projecting. What pushed me over the edge was, seeing on the same day, it being worn by a convicted drug dealer in the newspapers, a London landlord famous for pulling a gun out on his tenants, and being accosted by a guy in gas station head to toe in metal-plated Dolce Gabbana clothing how he had "a Patek like yours mate" but he sold it for a small profit and now couldn't get another... Classy.....

In London the Nautilus is the de facto choice of a certain phenotype; Phillip Plein, H-belt, G63 AMG, D&G Clothing etc - maximal status signalling - maximal moron - and that's just not me. The watch is part of a caricature of idiocy and this is extremely dangerous for PP.

Why? Well because such a brand association - the same that causes imbeciles to fall over their Yeezy's for Nautilus - turns off the people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars with PP every year on MR, PC, PCCs, and so on.

Leave South Florida/LA guys - travel to Moscow, Shanghai, Zurich, Bangkok, Beirut, etc - you've got 25 year olds rocking 5270's and 5370's and their dads have been buying Minute Repeaters for decades.
And believe me, Thierry Stern knows where his money comes from and he doesn't want to sabotage a brand image which is based on a one-watch line sold at a huge premium, to capricious social-media addicts (who will move on to the next zeitgeist FAST), only irritate his REAL customers.

Now when I said this on a earlier thread, I was excoriated by a bunch of imbeciles who scuttled out from under their rocks, calling me, alternately, racist, snobby, or daft. They couldn't take it that
a) their desires are commercially unimportant and
b) worse still, these guys are actually dangerous to the long term brand equity of PP and
c) they were too THICK to understand what brand positioning is.

What I find most amusing is that these self same people, who would walk past a discounted 5711 a few years ago on their way to a Gold Submariner, are now frothing at the mouth at the suggestion that they are anything other than enthusiasts.
I suppose that some of them are collateral damage - enthusiasts who have had their circumstances change and they lusted after a sports Patek then, and they do now and can now buy one only to find that the Instagram brigade have forced values into absurdity. I feel for them and I apologise for this post to you because this doesn't apply to you.

But for everyone else, you want one because "you saw it on Insta and it goes up in value." Let's not kid ourselves.
After all, ALL sports watches have gone into the stratosphere and people desperate to project status lust after them.
And that's fine - more power to you. Good for you. I'm happy for you.

But expect to be disappointed if you want Thierry Stern to build a business around supplying sports watches to "Miami Supercar Renters" - that is commercial suicide.
And be aware, that trends go through cycles - Patek sports will soon enter the realms of egregious fashion faux-pas (like the male perm or shoulder pads OR the Patek 3700 which you couldn't GIVE AWAY a few years ago). By then I expect that the insta-crew would have descended like locusts onto something new, leaving only the collectors that were here before....

Flame suit on. Good luck!

:-)

This is interesting comment. I have just read that Rolex is closing up a lot of ADs in Hong Kong and moving them to China even though HK has been a major watch market for the past decade. It is probably due to COVID and other factors but one of the factors is also because consumers in HK only chase after the hot SS pieces which is in trend but apparently consumers in China buy what they like and less of the trendy SS sports watch. It was a surprise to me but I believe all luxury brands prefer customers who buy into the brand as a lifestyle and not just one or two products. And the brand will try to serve this type of customers.

[Russell996]

.

[Pateks]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Exactly. Instead of selling you a $35K SS 5711 as a reward for buying $100K of slow movers PP will sell you an updated platinum 5711 for $120K as a reward for buying $500K of slow movers. It's all about the profit margin.

If you don’t like the game- lots of options. Go gray. Buy another brand. Keep the money in the bank. None of these watches are essential to life. We want them for various reasons. The 6711 or whatever is called will come out and nothing will change except people will find ways to critique and critize as they have always done.

[martinr]

More importantly did Thierry get divorced?

[Billfav]

Late to the game as usual. I applaud the OP for a well written post kicking off this thread. I agree with most of what he wrote and many of the others in subsequent posting.

I do differ on a few points from this thread. To me the stainless steel sports watch of a model hard to obtain (most any steel sports watch) , particularly those with polished bracelets is no different than a gold sports watch such as those cited (Rolex DD and AP RO). For many it is a statement watch and if one looks at PM or gold as vulgar these are no different. Let's face it those at one time may have been practical tool watches but for most today they are not. It is also ignorant for anyone who sees a gold sports watch to think the wearer of such is doing so to make a statement. I for one appreciate the looks and warmth of gold and would buy such for me not others. In full disclosure I own at 5711/1R. I bought it not for a statement but simply for it's beauty. It is (to me) beautiful. But my point is wearing that, a gold Rolex DD, a gold AP RO, or gold VC Overseas should be viewed by those who judge just as brash as a steel 5711 or steel AP RO.

I also differ in thinking TS was knocking other brands. To me if his citations of the business models AP and IWC were accurate, I don't view it as a knock. Rather I applaud him for recognizing that is not what he envisioned as his company ethos and will choose to navigate his company differently.

[Vipes]

Originally Posted by Billfav

Late to the game as usual. I applaud the OP for a well written post kicking off this thread. I agree with most of what he wrote and many of the others in subsequent posting.

I do differ on a few points from this thread. To me the stainless steel sports watch of a model hard to obtain (most any steel sports watch) , particularly those with polished bracelets is no different than a gold sports watch such as those cited (Rolex DD and AP RO). For many it is a statement watch and if one looks at PM or gold as vulgar these are no different. Let's face it those at one time may have been practical tool watches but for most today they are not. It is also ignorant for anyone who sees a gold sports watch to think the wearer of such is doing so to make a statement. I for one appreciate the looks and warmth of gold and would buy such for me not others. In full disclosure I own at 5711/1R. I bought it not for a statement but simply for it's beauty. It is (to me) beautiful. But my point is wearing that, a gold Rolex DD, a gold AP RO, or gold VC Overseas should be viewed by those who judge just as brash as a steel 5711 or steel AP RO.

I also differ in thinking TS was knocking other brands. To me if his citations of the business models AP and IWC were accurate, I don't view it as a knock. Rather I applaud him for recognizing that is not what he envisioned as his company ethos and will choose to navigate his company differently.

Agree with your views on PM pieces. There are some who where PM as a statement piece to show off and others who appreciate the look of PM. I have a RG GMT and Patek 5167R and I don’t wear it to show off. I just love the warmth and feel on the wrist.

[Custom02]

Fascinating to read all the posts, it’s been an interesting discussion.

In reply to the most recent post by Billfav- I agree, hard-to-obtain steel watches have become objects that draw a disproportionate level of attention as I alluded to in my initial post and that is perhaps something that doesn’t fit with PP’s company ethos and why they have taken a step to alter, or at least slow down the proportion of their own product that ends up falling into this category neatly summed up by the term you’ve used (which I’d never heard before but is perfect in how descriptive it is) ‘’statement watch’’. My opinion is that PP doesn't want to be mixed up with statement watches in any meaningful way in terms of volume. In everything they do they try promote a link between their brand and taste/discretion.

There are exceptions, in one post someone mentioned the Grandmaster Chime. No question, this is a watch that wasn’t meant to go unnoticed and there have been a few others (the Skymoon springs to mind as does the Advanced Research Aquanaut) but these are made in such small numbers that I don’t think it’s fair to include them in a general overview of what PP produce. They are created primarily to showcase what is possible in terms of watchmaking.

I do however disagree with regards to the perspective on gold watches. Steel nautiluses became statement watches due to forces outside the company’s control. Gold watches on all-gold bracelets have ALWAYS been statement watches irrespective of the brand or decade they were made. The connection between gold and money is just too strong.

The 5711R is a thing of beauty, no doubt and there’s something about the extra weight of gold that gives it an almost magical quality. However, the other main characteristic of gold is that it is probably the single most eye-catchingingly visible material in existence.

I bought a YG day-date 40 a few years ago with the intention of livening up a collection that was becoming overly somber in it's pursuit of discretion. However, it quickly became clear to me that it was simply too visible, too large and attracted way way too much attention and so I made a compromise and swapped it for a 5167R.

I suppose what I mean is that even if the intention isn't to show off by wearing such an obviously expensive watch, all gold watches have that effect in almost everyone eyes. You might not think you're wearing an all gold watch to make a statement but that is what everyone will assume you're doing.

Imagine the following situation, a customer walks into a hypothetical watch shop that stocks all brands, all models and they’re all available on the spot. He’s an open-hearted soul and explains to the sales assistant that he’s very worried about being thought of by others as ostentatious so above anything else whatever he ends up buying must make allowances for this concern.

Surely given this information, it wouldn't take much experience or wisdom on the sales assistant's part to then suggest he rule out any gold watches on bracelets and they'd move on from there.

[cascavel]

Aren't all mechanical watches "statement pieces"? Does anyone on this site buy a watch which costs thousands of dollars to not make a statement, in the hopes that no one will notice their choice of timepiece? Maybe you don't want everyone to notice, but you certainly want some people to notice. The entire notion that the 5711 is now garish and should be avoided, like a watch made of gold, is ludicrous. And why are gold watches garish? Isn't gold the material that was used on mechanical watches for centuries?
If someone wants to wear a diamond encrusted rose gold Rolex DD or Nautilus, kudos, enjoy it. For those who feel anything more noticeable than a Daytona 6263 is unseemly, I embrace your decision.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by Pateks

If you don’t like the game- lots of options. Go gray. Buy another brand. Keep the money in the bank. None of these watches are essential to life. We want them for various reasons. The 6711 or whatever is called will come out and nothing will change except people will find ways to critique and critize as they have always done.

I love the game, the game is the point. And you're right, there are lots of options and the clever collectors who frequent this site will figure out what they are and 10 years from now when we are all whining about the impossibility of getting one's hands on a steel Urban Jurgensen or Gronefeld et.al. anywhere near MSRP those people will own them and will cry crocodile tears over our predicament.
Until then, for those who bought a 5711a when they were day old fish, wear the piss out of it.

[enjoythemusic]

Agreed, PP have greatly fallen from their heyday. I look fwd to new movements with hi-tech goodies, great innovations and not just the typical stuff that ALS, FPJ and others do better at anyway.

Old PP designs are nice, if you like it buy one as many are available online.

Bvlgari handed many manufacturers their arse... at 3x lower the price.

AP has more youthful influence.

Rolex is Rolex.

FP Journ is showing how badly PP has slid downhill.
:
:
:

I remember when PP was pretty much the best, and they actually did some innovation too.

Now only $300,000+ gives you hints of PP past glory imho. Let's hope PP masters sub-dial color-matching... and 10 year warranty... or at least five, though eight is really a minimum nowadays.

[cwilson13]

I heard the 5711 is going to be relaunched as a special edition in partnership with HODINKEE.

As a long time 5711 owner, this greatly upsets me.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by cwilson13

I heard the 5711 is going to be relaunched as a special edition in partnership with HODINKEE.

but only as a travel clock

[ts3]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Aren't all mechanical watches "statement pieces"? Does anyone on this site buy a watch which costs thousands of dollars to not make a statement, in the hopes that no one will notice their choice of timepiece? Maybe you don't want everyone to notice, but you certainly want some people to notice. The entire notion that the 5711 is now garish and should be avoided, like a watch made of gold, is ludicrous. And why are gold watches garish? Isn't gold the material that was used on mechanical watches for centuries?
If someone wants to wear a diamond encrusted rose gold Rolex DD or Nautilus, kudos, enjoy it. For those who feel anything more noticeable than a Daytona 6263 is unseemly, I embrace your decision.

I guess I have got to be weird. My 5711 was noticed exactly twice in 3 years. Once by a former significant other from 20 years ago when she was visiting from New York (I had just gotten the watch and she still knows me well enough). The second time I was hanging out in the park when a kid recognized the watch from at least 20ft away and came over in slight disbelief. Most of my friends would rather get their 23rd car than 1 decent watch...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by cwilson13

I heard the 5711 is going to be relaunched as a special edition in partnership with HODINKEE.

That would be great. Ho' looks to be trying to be like Supreme, yet for watches and related toys. Free eight-year warranty AND insurance included with sale. Dink's branding strength flexing, with added benefits to customers. Soon the HoDink $500 / year club card for a chance at added content and exclusive small-batch runs by PP and others. The smart marketing, combined with influencers, are nearly endless.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by cwilson13

I heard the 5711 is going to be relaunched as a special edition in partnership with HODINKEE.

As a long time 5711 owner, this greatly upsets me.

Good joke but I’d welcome first come first serve

[cwilson13]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

That would be great. Ho' looks to be trying to be like Supreme, yet for watches and related toys. Free eight-year warranty AND insurance included with sale. Dink's branding strength flexing, with added benefits to customers. Soon the HoDink $500 / year club card for a chance at added content and exclusive small-batch runs by PP and others. The smart marketing, combined with influencers, are nearly endless.

If they package in a limited edition Hodikee smoking jacket with each 5711 purchase, it will be a social media mic drop. Boom. I just threw up a bit in my mouth. :)

[321Forever]

I like all the comments!

Over the years, I can think of a handful of times where one of my watches got any attention so it's funny to read the comments above regarding watch visibility. One time it was a white faced Mark XV on bracelet that someone pointed out at an airport. Another time was a GMT-II Coke at a Shanghai-ese restaurant in LA, that the server noticed. Finally, a few years back a co-worker said "Is that a PP?" when I had my Aquanaut on. That's it.

I think TS is very much Swiss in his business approach, and that's not a compliment, as he is not that different than the old Swiss CEOs of big Pharma. I find his statements hard to make sense of and absolutely lacking in transparency. It sounds like BS through and through. Whether it's the DC of the 5711 or his tolerance for scalpers/profiteers, he seems generally horrible.

I'm glad this forum exists because the major watch sites are part of the same stupid system.

[Billfav]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Aren't all mechanical watches "statement pieces"? Does anyone on this site buy a watch which costs thousands of dollars to not make a statement, in the hopes that no one will notice their choice of timepiece? Maybe you don't want everyone to notice, but you certainly want some people to notice. The entire notion that the 5711 is now garish and should be avoided, like a watch made of gold, is ludicrous. And why are gold watches garish? Isn't gold the material that was used on mechanical watches for centuries?
If someone wants to wear a diamond encrusted rose gold Rolex DD or Nautilus, kudos, enjoy it. For those who feel anything more noticeable than a Daytona 6263 is unseemly, I embrace your decision.

I buy a watch for many qualities that appeal to me. Frankly I prefer it goes unnoticed as on the rare occasion when one does get noticed or at least commented on I feel awkward.. Crazy I know... Outside of my 5711R most of my watches are vintage or conservative dress watches that are in my eyes works of art and marvels of engineering. Interestingly the watch I have received more comments on (then all my other watches combined) is my steel Ceramic Daytona.

With respect to a 5711, not sure who said it should be avoided certainly not me. But I do believe a shiny steel sport watch is no different than a gold sport watch..

However at the end of the day I agree, wear what you like for whatever reasons you care to wear it.

[Partekular]

I agree with the comment that some AD’s are snotty nosed.

PP salespeople need to explain to potential buyers that:-

A). Like a Monty Python sketch, most of the watches in the range cannot be supplied - by design and limited production - but the hyper glam heap of catalogues can be admired. Wake up punter - It’s a Veblen Good. You want it more because you can’t have it.
B). The newly arrived models in the shop will either be sold in the next five minutes or will gather dust in the window for the next five years. The grandads?
C). Limited edition hand made watches of great mechanical complexity give the brand gravitas, sell for millions and are then bought back by the PP museum or locked in rich collectors safes in Geneva for onward sale after death via Sotheby’s by unappreciative offspring.
D). When you try one on which you like and want to buy you won’t be able to take it off.

TS runs PP recognising it’s a hire wire act. Shrinking ADs down even more might be the solution to frustrated high street wannabe owners and dispose of the useless ADs. I met several who thought looking down on people expressed exclusivity of the brand.

[Solicitor]

I bought my 5711 in 2010 when it wasn't that popular yet. My friends laughed at me and ask why I bought a 900k watch (brand new discounted price at that time) that is ugly and doesn't even look expensive. I of course only answered with a smile

This bashing of 5711 wasn't uncommon at that time and when Mr Stern was asked to comment about it, his answer was simple; "the Nautilus 5711 isn't for everyone and we want it to stay that way!"

Now that it has reached unprecedented demand, he stopped production... at least he's consistent.

For us 5711 owners and not flippers, this is a welcome decision. PP will never mass produce our watches and it is good.



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