Rolex movement vs ETA movment!!

[JJ Irani]

Hi guys,

This is a post where I would appreciate the participation of all you knowledgible folk out there.

Okay, on the one hand we have the robust Rolex movment, let's say the 3135 as a solid example...and on the other hand we have an ETA one, say the 2892-A2 movement which is commonly being used in OMEGA SMPs, etc.

We have established that the ETA movment costs around 50 dollars...but we are not too sure of the price factor on a Rolex movement.

We also know that the 3135 can take one helluva lickin' and still go on tickin' !! Not sure how much "bashing" an ETA can be subjected to...so I really can't comment. Might need your help and experience on this one.

Another established fact is that the Rolex movement is protected by the KIF shock-absorber system, whereas ETA use Incabloc. Not sure in which way one is advantageous over the other.

Maybe some of you guys can contribute more to this thread so for once we can have a "serious" discussion about movement and learn a few things as we go along.

Thanks - JJ

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Hi guys,

This is a post where I would appreciate the participation of all you knowledgible folk out there.

KADANG! That's number one! Give me 50 Mr. "Spelling"

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

KADANG! That's number one! Give me 50 Mr. "Spelling"

Keep up the good work Frans!! LOL.....

[padi56]

Incabloc prevents shock damage by allowing the Jewelled balance of the watch to move laterally and vertically within a spring-mounted setting.The Kif system does more or less the same,but is more costly to produce and IMO slightly better than the Incabloc.
A couple of points first regarding Rolex movements they use the Breguet over-coil hairspring.Now this is quite more expensive to
produce.The Breguet spring outermost coil bends up slightly, and passes over the rest of the coils. This is supposed to give better performance in different positions, because, the hairspring ends up having more mass toward the centre.Now the Nivarox spring in the ETA is flat everything is planer.The main differences between ,say a Rolex and an ETA are not really that subtle.Your Rolex will have the more expensive
balance/hairspring assemblies with adjustable timekeeping weights, as opposed to the modern ETA with a one piece balance.The main other difference ETA can be made into a chronometer grade movement,your Rolex are designed and built to be chronometers from the start.As for reliability ETA movements can perform and last as long as Rolex. But IMO will need more in service, and regulation to keep them tuned.Now the ETA 2892-A2 is a very long lasting movement a chronometer grade movement,and would cost around $185 base to $250 retail for the top spec model movement.And IMO your Rolex 3135 movement would cost around the same, or a lot less cost wise, to mass produce.

Originally Posted by padi56

Incabloc prevents shock damage by allowing the Jewelled balance of the watch to move laterally and vertically within a spring-mounted setting.The Kif system does more or less the same,but is more costly to produce and IMO slightly better than the Incabloc.
A couple of points first regarding Rolex movements they use the Breguet over-coil hairspring.Now this is quite more expensive to
produce.The Breguet spring outermost coil bends up slightly, and passes over the rest of the coils. This is supposed to give better performance in different positions, because, the hairspring ends up having more mass toward the centre.Now the Nivarox spring in the ETA is flat everything is planer.The main differences between ,say a Rolex and an ETA are not really that subtle.Your Rolex will have the more expensive
balance/hairspring assemblies with adjustable timekeeping weights, as opposed to the modern ETA with a one piece balance.The main other difference ETA can be made into a chronometer grade movement,your Rolex are designed and built to be chronometers from the start.As for reliability ETA movements can perform and last as long as Rolex. But IMO will need more in service, and regulation to keep them tuned.Now the ETA 2892-A2 is a very long lasting movement a chronometer grade movement,and would cost around $185 base to $250 retail for the top spec model movement.And IMO your Rolex 3135 movement would cost around the same, or a lot less cost wise, to mass produce.

Awesome Peter, thanks for the insight. With the more expensive 2892-A2, it sounds almost six of one, half dozen of the other. I see a lot of online watch snobs pi$$ on ETA movement equipped watches, but if they were bad, manufacturers wouldn't use them. I think they're quite good!

[BruceS]

Well done Peter. I believe you've pointed out that while the ETA movement is indeed a very good, long lasting movement, the Rolex movement SHOULD have better performance or less need for regulation over time due to things like the Breguet overcoil. Whether it actually does may be up to other factors, including wearing habits of the owner.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Atomic

Awesome Peter, thanks for the insight. With the more expensive 2892-A2, it sounds almost six of one, half dozen of the other. I see a lot of online watch snobs pi$$ on ETA movement equipped watches, but if they were bad, manufacturers wouldn't use them. I think they're quite good!

Yes mate would agree with you, well thats one think I will never be, a watch snob.Myself have respect for all mechanical
movements all makes.Most modern movements today can be tuned to COSC standards.And like you say If ETA movements were bad,do you think companies like IWC would use them. And Rolex themselves used a ETA Valjoux movement in there Chronograph watches prior to the El-primo Zenith movement. Most swiss, or European watches produced today, will have a ETA based engine so they must be pretty good and reliable.

Originally Posted by padi56

The Kif system does more or less the same,but is more costly to produce and IMO slightly better than the Incabloc.

Two questions:

1/ What Incabloc/Kif systems are you referring to?

2/ What specifically makes you think the Kif is better than the Incabloc?

[Baptistman]

Interesting post, nice one JJ..... However I heard that Swatch were no longer going to suppy ebauches from the year 2010 other than to companys within the Swatch group. It was supposed to happen this year, but discussions between the powers that be (whoever they are) and Swatch led to an agreement to put forward that date. So what will happen to companies like Brietling and many others if they can no longer use ETA.

[BruceS]

Originally Posted by Baptistman

Interesting post, nice one JJ..... However I heard that Swatch were no longer going to suppy ebauches from the year 2010 other than to companys within the Swatch group. It was supposed to happen this year, but discussions between the powers that be (whoever they are) and Swatch led to an agreement to put forward that date. So what will happen to companies like Brietling and many others if they can no longer use ETA.

Yeah that's the real interesting discussion! Even high end companies like IWC use ETA. I guess there are a lot of folks scrambling around to make their own movements or maybe there will be another movement supplier.....or maybe the movement supplier will be another one of the watch manufacturers. Interesting stuff!

Originally Posted by BruceS

Yeah that's the real interesting discussion! Even high end companies like IWC use ETA. I guess there are a lot of folks scrambling around to make their own movements or maybe there will be another movement supplier.....or maybe the movement supplier will be another one of the watch manufacturers. Interesting stuff!

I honestly can't see the SWATCH group pulling the plug on selling movements to non-Swatch owned manufacturers. In my eyes, it doesn't make sense because here you have the market cornered and you're going to shut off the tap to millions of dollars of business? Unless they plan on buying up all the manufacturers they supply movements to, it doesn't make sense.

However, with the renewed interest in mechanical watches, and with Seiko introducing a new line of 'low end Grand Seikos' (like the one JIM just bought), maybe Seiko is gearing up to fill in the gap, or provide the competition to Swatch to make them stay in the game.

Maybe others like Miyota will improve their products. Maybe JLC will introduce a lower line of movements.

Whatever happens, no doubt it will be interesting and who knows, maybe the consumer will actually benefit for a change.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Two questions:

1/ What Incabloc/Kif systems are you referring to?

2/ What specifically makes you think the Kif is better than the Incabloc?

1. Protection to the balance wheel.

2. Personal choice as most military watches use the KIF system, its supposed to be more protective to vibration and sudden shock.

Originally Posted by padi56

1. Protection to the balance wheel.

2. Personal choice as most military watches use the KIF system, its supposed to be more protective to vibration and sudden shock.

Padi - I know what the shock protection system does, but there are different types of systems made by Incabloc. So, I am trying to figure out what Incabloc system you are referring to when making your judgements.

Regarding the Kif system being better, I am trying to find out why you think it does a better job at protecting for vibration and sudden shock. In other words, what is it about this design that makes it better?

[padi56]

Maybe others like Miyota will improve their products. Maybe JLC will introduce a lower line of movements.

On the subject of the Miyota movement I bought a watch off ebay cost
£25 I was going to strip it down for a bit of practise.That was quite easy but
I tried to put it back together but failed badly.So box of bits over to my friend
and he reassembled cleaned and oiled it.Now this movement wont win a beauty contests in fact looks quite crude this is the bottom range unadjusted
This was 3 weeks ago he left the back loose for me,to have a go regulating it
after a fair bit of tuning its now running + 4 sec a day on winder.

[dman]

I read somewhere that a few new manufactuers are stepping up their game. I don't think we will see a huge turn to in-house movements. Though I am sure the ones that do will take a stupid high jump in price, like Panerai.

[BruceS]

Originally Posted by dman

I read somewhere that a few new manufactuers are stepping up their game. I don't think we will see a huge turn to in-house movements. Though I am sure the ones that do will take a stupid high jump in price, like Panerai.

Very true. If you can sell a simple watch with a modified Unitas movement for 9500 USD, imagine what they'll charge for the same simple watch with a manufacture movement!!

[dman]

Originally Posted by BruceS

Very true. If you can sell a simple watch with a modified Unitas movement for 9500 USD, imagine what they'll charge for the same simple watch with a manufacture movement!!

They already are mate, look at the new 203. Will be around $20,000 for the in house.

Originally Posted by dman

I read somewhere that a few new manufactuers are stepping up their game. I don't think we will see a huge turn to in-house movements. Though I am sure the ones that do will take a stupid high jump in price, like Panerai.

I agree 100%. When Panerai releases their in-house movement (which they have confirmed they're working on), it'll be hideously expensive. I've also read that TAG Heuer is working on their own in-house movements to gain more independence. I don't mean that drive-belt movement for the Monza either... which is set to be released next year sometime.

[dman]

John, I will keep posting this until you do it, CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX IT IS FULL!!!

Originally Posted by dman

John, I will keep posting this until you do it, CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX IT IS FULL!!!

Sorry, missed that. Cleaned up now.

[baseballduck]

Wow, if they stop suppling movements we may see a lot of companies go under. Hopefully not and hopfully either they won't stop supplying the movements or they can make some good in house ones.

TYler

[JJ Irani]

Thanks Padi for all your info and thanks, guys for all the input.

Aaaaaah (breathing a huge sigh of relief)....have we for the first time actually had a serious discussion on watches??

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Thanks Padi for all your info and thanks, guys for all the input.

Aaaaaah (breathing a huge sigh of relief)....have we for the first time actually had a serious discussion on watches??

Yes we have! Are you proud of yourself, now you've ruined my weekend. Oh no, serious, the humanity! This place will never be the same. The first members will start dropping out in about one hour. Before we now TRF is no longer. And all thanks to YOU JJ!!!!!!

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

Yes we have! Are you proud of yourself, now you've ruined my weekend. Oh no, serious, the humanity! This place will never be the same. The first members will start dropping out in about one hour. Before we now TRF is no longer. And all thanks to YOU JJ!!!!!!

LOL!! Tosser!!

[Baptistman]

Originally Posted by BruceS

Yeah that's the real interesting discussion! Even high end companies like IWC use ETA. I guess there are a lot of folks scrambling around to make their own movements or maybe there will be another movement supplier.....or maybe the movement supplier will be another one of the watch manufacturers. Interesting stuff!

This is the article I read....

You will have heard that there was an uproar in the Swiss watch industry when Eta (part of the Swatch Group) announced, back in summer 2002, that they would gradually reduce delivery of raw movements (ébauches) to customers outside the Swatch Group and that such sales would be completely stopped by the end of 2005.
Some companies requested an intervention of the Swiss Federal Committee for Fair Trade (“Wettbewerbskommission,” WeKo) in this matter; they claimed improper use of a position of power by the Swatch Group.
On November 8, 2004, an agreement was reached between Eta and the WeKo:
Eta agreed to continue delivery of ébauches until 2010, but the numbers will be gradually decreased. Based on the average number of movements that a customer had bought between 1999 and 2001 as a reference, Eta will only deliver 85 % of the reference figure in 2008, 50 % in 2009, and 25 % in 2010. Price increases are only allowed in the range of the inflation rate, if Eta wants to charge more than this, the WeKo has to give its OK.

What was the industry's reaction? Asked whether they would continue to buy Eta movements if the prices were raised by 10 %, Breitling answered “Yes, we have no alternative,” and Dubois-Depraz even stated that they “would continue to buy ébauches from Eta if the prices would be raised by 200 % or more, because there is no alternative.”
For the customer, the result is simple: Prices for mechanical watches will continue to rise ... (Source: “Der Bund,” Bern, November 14, 2004)

[BruceS]

I can't decide whether the situation is not good for the Swiss watch industry and the consumer, or whether it will end up being good for both in time, as other suppliers are forced to emerge. It does appear that the consumer will take it in the wallet in the mean time

[JJ Irani]

A few facts have definitely been established.

1. Quartz watches have virtually no resale value.
2. Mechanical watches do, but certain brands like Tag, etc. can take a very hard hit on the resale market.
3. Rollies are probably the best out there to hold their price (to a degree of course), unless you happen to have one of those rare PPs or something.

This has been a good, informative thread, guys. Thanks ALL!!