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betrezra · 23 June 2006, 08:12 AM

I've had good luck with ebay for the 4+ years buying everthing from automobiles, jetskiis, guitars, etc.... even a couple rolex's.

Well my luck ran out on a certain 1970 circa red sub.

I know I should have listened but I HAD to have it, and the seller assured that it was legit.

I presumed based on my due dilligence that this art dealer was on the up-and-up. Nice store front, many other high-end items for sale. Decent feedback, etc.. etc...

Seller is galleria-volterra out of Firenze-Ponte Vecchio, Italy.

Ebay Item # is: 8947168620

My watch guy says it's not an original RED SUB - dial has been retouched over with red paint. Looks like red dust under 20x loop very uneven. Rest of dial, watch, movement is legit. Even correct date ser #, non-hack movement etc...

Seller says watch is legit and will only give store credit not a refund.

Is there any recourse OR am I stuck with a re-dial 1680?

Anyone live near this guy?

Funny thing, I read all these warnings about fraud, fake reds, etc.... and I still pulled the trigger hoping it was legit.

Learn from my mistake here folks.... buy from a reputable shop.

Jeff

I might see about having a proper orig white dial put back on this watch.

I'll post some pics here for your opinion.

Prince · 23 June 2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrezra

...Funny thing, I read all these warnings about fraud, fake reds, etc.... and I still pulled the trigger hoping it was legit. Learn from my mistake here folks.... buy from a reputable shop...

Sorry for your problems, but that is exactly what we always say. I have had good results on eBay, but danger lurks around every corner there.

mike · 23 June 2006, 08:39 AM

Man, I'm so sorry. Can you post a pic of it?

This is mine from circa 1970, non-hacking, non-quickset.

maverick · 23 June 2006, 09:49 AM

Hopefully you paid through PayPal and can make a claim. Otherwise I might get the police involved. It was advertised as a "Red Sub" so HE is committing fraud. It is not as described so he is in the wrong, wrong, wrong. The small pic of the face is one give away something is not right. The lugs look overpolished from what I can see. Why should you fix the watch??? It's not what you bought. With his feedback I would not have taken a chance. He is not a watch seller, another red flag. 100% pos. feedback or nothing is my motto. Sorry for your potential lose. =) maverick

Here is a 1972 model, 1575 hacking movement, open 6s.

dman · 23 June 2006, 10:12 AM

Jeff, that is too bad mate, really sorry to hear that.

betrezra · 23 June 2006, 12:16 PM

I'm filing a claim with paypal. We'll see what happens.

This will teach me.

I'll be putting together another pile of cash to get a REAL red sub, and I'll go through a legitmate broker this time.

I want a red sub in a bad way.

Roverdave · 23 June 2006, 12:43 PM

Just out of curiosity-if you can find one, what is a Red Sub going for?

I am a huge Sub fan, and would like to add one to the collection some day...

betrezra · 23 June 2006, 01:43 PM

I see them between 6900 and 8000 and they're going up up up.

But buyer beware..... unless they come with papers.... pretty hard to verify.

Uncle-AJ · 23 June 2006, 02:04 PM

Sorry to hear you have been fleeced on eBay Jeff. I hope you can get your money back.

Val · 23 June 2006, 02:24 PM

Kinda off the subject, but I heard that they (red dials) may be available through Rolex, When people send in their Subs to get refurbished, they sometimes recommend a dial change. Since they don't make the "Red" dial anymore, they just put in the current version. So what do they do with the "red" dials? I don't know idf they actually have them, but this was mentioned to me by a watchmaker I met once. It might be worth looking into. Just my two cents...

Spencer · 23 June 2006, 03:07 PM

That sucks. Sorry to hear that man. Good luck working it out.

maverick · 23 June 2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrezra

I see them between 6900 and 8000 and they're going up up up.

But buyer beware..... unless they come with papers.... pretty hard to verify.

There is nothing on the paperwork that indicates red on the dial. So you really have to be careful. Buying the seller instead of the watch is a wise decision with these watches. Only buy one from someone with references and is well known. You are the third person I have read posts this week that has been burned on eBay. Redsubsdotcom is a great place to get tips and so is doubleredseadwellersdotcom. I hope you get your money back soon. =) maverick

JJ Irani · 23 June 2006, 05:04 PM

That's a sorry and expensive way to learn a lesson, Jeff...and I feel even more sorry when it happens to a valued member of TRF. I do hope you succeed in getting your money back....and, remember, once bitten, twice shy!!

Good luck, pal.

JJ

mailman · 23 June 2006, 07:12 PM

That sucks Jeff. I hope you can get your money back.

padi56 · 23 June 2006, 07:16 PM

Very sorry but the Red sub must be one of the most easily faked out there,but his picture looks good.Get it checked out by Rolex first. Like you say seller seem to be OK,but have noticed he is selling a Oman sub for $7900.If that was genuine you could add a few zeros to that price.Hope you can get your money back via Paypal,or better still, deal direct with your card company, ebay will not give you much help.

Few examples of the Red sub fonts.

Most faked ones the word submariner is far to long and
larger font.

betrezra · 23 June 2006, 08:16 PM

Thanks for the moral support!

I feel like a dope for falling for this, but I thought it good to share my dumb move with this forum so people are CAREFUL!

I'm working the IFCC, Paypay, and his local art dealer channels...... things are in motion. We'll see what gives.

Jeff

Earl · 23 June 2006, 09:09 PM

Hang in there Jeff, been there done that... I bought the seller and not the watch, well I'm here to tell you there are some pretty shady people out there. Although I was out only $1200.00 far better than 5500.00 I still feel sick to my stomach to think someone could do that to me!

Oh well live and learn :o)

23 June 2006, 09:40 PM

Sorry to hear you were scammed Jeff. I hope you get your money back!

betrezra · 23 June 2006, 10:07 PM

Hard lesson - you can bet it won't happen again.

I was a pretty BOLD ebayer..... probably just lucky up to this point.

I shall revert back to brick-mortor stores.

HECK of a way to get educated eh?

Now to find a REAL RED SUB>

Rockrolex · 23 June 2006, 10:40 PM

Sorry to hear about your problem, Jeff. When you deal on fleabay enough, the law of averages says it's bound to happen at some point. It's happened to the best of us, moi included.

If you paid by credit card, you should be able to dispute the charge with your credit card company. I don't even bother with Paypal. I get faster action going directly to my credit card company.

Let us know how things work out.

JJ Irani · 24 June 2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrezra

Hard lesson - you can bet it won't happen again.

I was a pretty BOLD ebayer..... probably just lucky up to this point.

I shall revert back to brick-mortor stores.

HECK of a way to get educated eh?

Now to find a REAL RED SUB>

I have to give you credit for being man enough to admit this on an open forum. Not many out there who would have the balls to confess to something silly they did. Hats off, pal!!

And all the best in getting your money back!!

betrezra · 24 June 2006, 04:49 AM

I figured some other would-be-suckers out there could learn from this expensive lesson at my expense.

I still feel like a chump - albiet a newely educated chump

I shall get a red-sub budget put together again.... and then I'll get help from you guys and a legit store to source it.

I WILL have a RED SUB!

Acrylic Crystal is SWEET!
Love the 1570 movement!!!!!!
It just screams 70's CHIC!

Gedanken · 24 June 2006, 10:45 AM

Ouch, Jeff - that bites the big one! Take this mook all the way downtown!

Lol-x · 25 June 2006, 10:15 PM

I'm not an expert on Subs, but I would make the following observations:
1. I read a post some time ago where it was authoritatively stated that the red paint is pointed over the top of the white paint for the word "submariner".
2. The photo in the auction (if it is of your watch) looks O.K. and as I understand it the red 'submariner' is supposed to be a smaller font size than the text below it. In the case of your purchase this seems to be correct.
3. With all due regard to your watchmaker, maybe you might like to go to a Rolex service centre and see what they have to say, given that it would appear the dial is not a total fake, they may give you some more authoritative opinion.
4. Have you looked at the back of the dial and observed and stamps or markings? Various companies who manufacture the dials for Rolex have been known to put their markings on the back of those dials.
Any photos of the watch you could post may assist.
Anyway, good luck, and I hope it works out for you.
Regards
73

betrezra · 26 June 2006, 06:35 AM

THanks for all the help and input.

The watch is heading to the Dallas RSC.

I'll get the skinny on this watch from ROLEX USA.

Agreed - My watch-man is pretty good but maybe there's an outside chance all is not lost.

Hopefully I'll have some feedback early this week.

More to come.

If it's legit red dial sub I'll ask the Dallas RSC to NOT change the dial or hands......

What will Rolex USA do if the dial is fake or other parts are fake?

I've heard here if the whole thing is fake they'll keep it and destroy it.

Thanks,
Jeff

colemanitis · 26 June 2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrezra

What will Rolex USA do if the dial is fake or other parts are fake? I've heard here if the whole thing is fake they'll keep it and destroy it.

They'll replace the fake parts with genuine parts. I don't know what they'll do if the entire watch is fake.

mike · 26 June 2006, 07:55 AM

It's my understanding RSCs in the US are now charging an "authentication" fee on watches. I'm not sure but $150. rings a bell. I believe the fee is absorbed if the watch is serviced.
I recently had my Red serviced by Dallas. Price was $490. USD. If the dial is not real they will refuse service unless you grant a new dial--approx $200. They will want to replace hands along with the dial--approx $125. Total-approx-$815.
I'm not sure about a situtation that the complete watch is fake. You might just be adding $150 to a bad deal.

betrezra · 26 June 2006, 02:30 PM

We'll see what they say this week.

Hopefully there's something of value in this deal

If a re-dial makes it right I can deal with that. It will be the MOST expensive 1680 on the planet BUT at least I'll Know it's legit.

More to come.

The school of hard knocks

betrezra · 28 June 2006, 01:15 AM

Dallas Rolex Tech is looking at the watch this afternoon. Hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.

More to come ;)

mike · 28 June 2006, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrezra

Dallas Rolex Tech is looking at the watch this afternoon. Hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.

More to come ;)

Fingers crossed!

23 June 2006, 08:12 AM	#1
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	I got hosed on a RED Sub from fleabay. I've had good luck with ebay for the 4+ years buying everthing from automobiles, jetskiis, guitars, etc.... even a couple rolex's. Well my luck ran out on a certain 1970 circa red sub. I know I should have listened but I HAD to have it, and the seller assured that it was legit. I presumed based on my due dilligence that this art dealer was on the up-and-up. Nice store front, many other high-end items for sale. Decent feedback, etc.. etc... Seller is galleria-volterra out of Firenze-Ponte Vecchio, Italy. Ebay Item # is: 8947168620 My watch guy says it's not an original RED SUB - dial has been retouched over with red paint. Looks like red dust under 20x loop very uneven. Rest of dial, watch, movement is legit. Even correct date ser #, non-hack movement etc... Seller says watch is legit and will only give store credit not a refund. Is there any recourse OR am I stuck with a re-dial 1680? Anyone live near this guy? Funny thing, I read all these warnings about fraud, fake reds, etc.... and I still pulled the trigger hoping it was legit. Learn from my mistake here folks.... buy from a reputable shop. Jeff I might see about having a proper orig white dial put back on this watch. I'll post some pics here for your opinion.

23 June 2006, 10:12 AM	#5
dman Lifetime TRF Patron Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Daren Location: Austin Watch: the road Posts: 13,583	Jeff, that is too bad mate, really sorry to hear that. __________________ You either get it or you don't, if you have to ask, YOU DON'T!! I really hope that midget cop doesn't find me in Kokomo.

23 June 2006, 12:16 PM	#6
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	Hose I'm filing a claim with paypal. We'll see what happens. This will teach me. I'll be putting together another pile of cash to get a REAL red sub, and I'll go through a legitmate broker this time. I want a red sub in a bad way.

23 June 2006, 01:43 PM	#8
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	Real Red Sub I see them between 6900 and 8000 and they're going up up up. But buyer beware..... unless they come with papers.... pretty hard to verify.

23 June 2006, 02:04 PM	#9
Uncle-AJ "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Real Name: Adrian Location: Bolton, UK. Watch: Daytona 116520 Posts: 6,844	Sorry to hear you have been fleeced on eBay Jeff. I hope you can get your money back. __________________ A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.........Segal's Law Member #10

23 June 2006, 08:39 AM	#3
mike "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 22,683	Man, I'm so sorry. Can you post a pic of it? This is mine from circa 1970, non-hacking, non-quickset.

23 June 2006, 09:49 AM	#4
maverick Banned Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: maverick Location: Prescott Watch: Rolex Posts: 1,180	Hopefully you paid through PayPal and can make a claim. Otherwise I might get the police involved. It was advertised as a "Red Sub" so HE is committing fraud. It is not as described so he is in the wrong, wrong, wrong. The small pic of the face is one give away something is not right. The lugs look overpolished from what I can see. Why should you fix the watch??? It's not what you bought. With his feedback I would not have taken a chance. He is not a watch seller, another red flag. 100% pos. feedback or nothing is my motto. Sorry for your potential lose. =) maverick Here is a 1972 model, 1575 hacking movement, open 6s.

23 June 2006, 12:43 PM	#7
Roverdave Member Join Date: May 2006 Real Name: David Location: Iowa Watch: SS Sub Posts: 85	Just out of curiosity-if you can find one, what is a Red Sub going for? I am a huge Sub fan, and would like to add one to the collection some day...

23 June 2006, 02:24 PM	#10
Val Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 134	Kinda off the subject, but I heard that they (red dials) may be available through Rolex, When people send in their Subs to get refurbished, they sometimes recommend a dial change. Since they don't make the "Red" dial anymore, they just put in the current version. So what do they do with the "red" dials? I don't know idf they actually have them, but this was mentioned to me by a watchmaker I met once. It might be worth looking into. Just my two cents...

23 June 2006, 03:07 PM	#11
Spencer "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,338	That sucks. Sorry to hear that man. Good luck working it out. __________________ I'm a perpetual kind of guy Resident Audemars Piguet Fanatic

23 June 2006, 05:04 PM	#13
JJ Irani Fondly Remembered Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: JJ Location: Auckland, NZ Watch: ALL SOLD!! Posts: 74,320	That's a sorry and expensive way to learn a lesson, Jeff...and I feel even more sorry when it happens to a valued member of TRF. I do hope you succeed in getting your money back....and, remember, once bitten, twice shy!! Good luck, pal. JJ __________________ Words fail me in expressing my utmost thanks to ALL of you for this wonderful support during my hour of need!! I firmly believe that my time on planet earth is NOT yet up!! I shall fight this to the very end.......and WIN!!

23 June 2006, 07:12 PM	#14
mailman TRF Moderator & DATE-JUST41 2024 Patron Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: . Watch: 126610LN Posts: 35,389	That sucks Jeff. I hope you can get your money back.

23 June 2006, 07:16 PM	#15
padi56 "TRF" Life Patron Join Date: Jun 2005 Real Name: Peter Location: Llanfairpwllgwyng Watch: ing you. Posts: 52,459	Very sorry but the Red sub must be one of the most easily faked out there,but his picture looks good.Get it checked out by Rolex first. Like you say seller seem to be OK,but have noticed he is selling a Oman sub for $7900.If that was genuine you could add a few zeros to that price.Hope you can get your money back via Paypal,or better still, deal direct with your card company, ebay will not give you much help. Few examples of the Red sub fonts. Most faked ones the word submariner is far to long and larger font. __________________ ICom Pro3 All posts are my own opinion and my opinion only. "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop. Now is the only time you actually own the time, Place no faith in time, for the clock may soon be still for ever." Good Judgement comes from experience,experience comes from Bad Judgement,.Buy quality, cry once; buy cheap, cry again and again. www.mc0yad.club Second in command CEO and left handed watch winder

23 June 2006, 08:16 PM	#16
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	red sub Thanks for the moral support! I feel like a dope for falling for this, but I thought it good to share my dumb move with this forum so people are CAREFUL! I'm working the IFCC, Paypay, and his local art dealer channels...... things are in motion. We'll see what gives. Jeff

23 June 2006, 09:09 PM	#17
Earl "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Who Me? Location: Northern Virginia Watch: out Posts: 4,616	Hang in there Jeff, been there done that... I bought the seller and not the watch, well I'm here to tell you there are some pretty shady people out there. Although I was out only $1200.00 far better than 5500.00 I still feel sick to my stomach to think someone could do that to me! Oh well live and learn :o)

23 June 2006, 09:40 PM	#18
---- Guest Posts: n/a	Sorry to hear you were scammed Jeff. I hope you get your money back!

23 June 2006, 10:07 PM	#19
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	Rollies Hard lesson - you can bet it won't happen again. I was a pretty BOLD ebayer..... probably just lucky up to this point. I shall revert back to brick-mortor stores. HECK of a way to get educated eh? Now to find a REAL RED SUB>

23 June 2006, 10:40 PM	#20
Rockrolex TRF Moderator & 2024 DATE-JUST41 Patron Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: God Location: Washington, D.C. Watch: What do you think? Posts: 37,591	Sorry to hear about your problem, Jeff. When you deal on fleabay enough, the law of averages says it's bound to happen at some point. It's happened to the best of us, moi included. If you paid by credit card, you should be able to dispute the charge with your credit card company. I don't even bother with Paypal. I get faster action going directly to my credit card company. Let us know how things work out. __________________ Despite the high cost of living, it's still very popular. *Tosser Cabinet Member* Official Member: 'Perpetual 30' Vegas International GTG 2016 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2017 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2018 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2019

24 June 2006, 04:49 AM	#22
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	*doh!* I figured some other would-be-suckers out there could learn from this expensive lesson at my expense. I still feel like a chump - albiet a newely educated chump I shall get a red-sub budget put together again.... and then I'll get help from you guys and a legit store to source it. I WILL have a RED SUB! Acrylic Crystal is SWEET! Love the 1570 movement!!!!!! It just screams 70's CHIC!

24 June 2006, 10:45 AM	#23
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	Ouch, Jeff - that bites the big one! Take this mook all the way downtown! __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

25 June 2006, 10:15 PM	#24
Lol-x Facilitator Join Date: Nov 2005 Real Name: Steve Location: Omnipresent Posts: 33,270	I'm not an expert on Subs, but I would make the following observations: 1. I read a post some time ago where it was authoritatively stated that the red paint is pointed over the top of the white paint for the word "submariner". 2. The photo in the auction (if it is of your watch) looks O.K. and as I understand it the red 'submariner' is supposed to be a smaller font size than the text below it. In the case of your purchase this seems to be correct. 3. With all due regard to your watchmaker, maybe you might like to go to a Rolex service centre and see what they have to say, given that it would appear the dial is not a total fake, they may give you some more authoritative opinion. 4. Have you looked at the back of the dial and observed and stamps or markings? Various companies who manufacture the dials for Rolex have been known to put their markings on the back of those dials. Any photos of the watch you could post may assist. Anyway, good luck, and I hope it works out for you. Regards 73

26 June 2006, 06:35 AM	#25
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	THanks for the help. THanks for all the help and input. The watch is heading to the Dallas RSC. I'll get the skinny on this watch from ROLEX USA. Agreed - My watch-man is pretty good but maybe there's an outside chance all is not lost. Hopefully I'll have some feedback early this week. More to come. If it's legit red dial sub I'll ask the Dallas RSC to NOT change the dial or hands...... What will Rolex USA do if the dial is fake or other parts are fake? I've heard here if the whole thing is fake they'll keep it and destroy it. Thanks, Jeff

26 June 2006, 07:55 AM	#27
mike "TRF" Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 22,683	It's my understanding RSCs in the US are now charging an "authentication" fee on watches. I'm not sure but $150. rings a bell. I believe the fee is absorbed if the watch is serviced. I recently had my Red serviced by Dallas. Price was $490. USD. If the dial is not real they will refuse service unless you grant a new dial--approx $200. They will want to replace hands along with the dial--approx $125. Total-approx-$815. I'm not sure about a situtation that the complete watch is fake. You might just be adding $150 to a bad deal.

26 June 2006, 02:30 PM	#28
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	@ We'll see what they say this week. Hopefully there's something of value in this deal If a re-dial makes it right I can deal with that. It will be the MOST expensive 1680 on the planet BUT at least I'll Know it's legit. More to come. The school of hard knocks

28 June 2006, 01:15 AM	#29
betrezra "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 477	## Dallas Rolex Tech is looking at the watch this afternoon. Hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst. More to come ;)

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