ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 01:25 AM

It was suggested that I post my request in the this forum.

The other day I stumbled upon what looks like a decent 1680. I'm posting the seller's pictures and description.

This ad was placed February 25: Rolex Submariner (Ref: 1680) (660ft - 200m) (SN: 6152xxx), outstanding dial. 93150 bracelet. Has original sales receipt, but no Rolex paperwork. Serviced and running well. $4,850

The seller advertised this watch back on November 29, 2008: Rolex Submariner (Ref: 1680) (660ft - 200m) (SN: 6152xxx), outstanding dial. 93150 bracelet. Has original sales receipt, but no Rolex paperwork. $6,250

There appears to be a significant price reduction which makes this watch a very tempting purchase. I have yet to develop an eye for refurnished hands and face. The edges of the case appear to be fairly crisp indicating only one or two buffings. The band seems to be in ok shape as well.

Hmm, I may have to revise this. The dial looks like it's been redone. The lines of the 6, 9, and 12 markers just aren't very crisp.

I would appreciate any comments. Thanks.

Orchi · 27 February 2009, 01:41 AM

Err buddy Brian...warm welcome to this TRF's WatchOut forum...!

The Flip-Lock buckle of the bracelet had been Re-Buffed quite heavily...
even to the extent that the Coronet can hardly be seen...
The rest of the bracelet combo looks decent considering it might have
been on the watch for long time.

The Case looks decent also...BUT you really need to show the Dial
a little closer to be able to see for more certainly whether or not
the Dial is in its original state or it may have been Re-lumed before...

The bezel looks OK...but the Hands look to be that it might have been
a later replacement(Luminova)...perhaps you need to ask the Seller
whether or not the Hands n the Dial would still illuminate in the dark...

The Date font "6" looks bolder...which may have been enhanced...

For such a Vintage watch...you really need to see the backcase too...
inside n out...to see if the Case has any excessive sign of corrosion
to the case n caseback cover...n whether the Cal. 1570 movement
is clean or not...

It's also important to know whether the movement works smoothly...
with certain degree of accuracy or not...

More pictures please...

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 01:53 AM

Thanks Orchi. These are the only pictures I have. I took them from the seller's add. I will ask for more pictures when I speak with him on the phone today. I too noticed the 6 to be a bit on the large side but didn't think much of it.

greekbum · 27 February 2009, 01:58 AM

The seller if I am not mistaken wrote a book on Rolex so he must be some kind of expert on these watches.
He says the dial is outstanding !!
He should know right?
He wrote a book many collectors including myself bought his book for reference material.
It is a very informative book.
I think he also says he lectures on how to spot a fake Rolex?
I do not know him but sounds like he could help this forum WATCH OUT for fakes.
The dial to me does not look right and the hands look to me luminova.
He did not state anything on the hands and just said the dial is outsatnding in his ad.
If I am wrong please correect me.
I am not an expert but look to the many books and forums for answers when in doubt.

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greekbum

The seller if I am not mistaken wrote a book on Rolex so he must be some kind of expert on these watches he says the dial is outstanding. He should know right?He wrote a book many collectors including myself bought his book for reference material.The dial to me does not look right and the hands look to me luminova. If I am wrong please correect me. I am not an expert but look to the many books and forums for answers when in doubt.

Yes, the face doesn't look right. What are luminova hands? Are these a newer replacement type from Rolex or are they after market?

If everything else checks out on the watch, can't the RSC replace the hands with the correct ones?

Noonan · 27 February 2009, 02:02 AM

Luminova is the type of lume material used. If original, I'd think the hands would have a bit more patina like the hour markers and the pearl.

ibsober · 27 February 2009, 06:52 AM

Just curious if anyone has the link to the watch in question...I'd like to take a look at it and the seller.

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 07:00 AM

Hmm, it looks like none of you ever sleep.

I just had a nice chat with the seller. Here's what he had to say. The watch was brought in as a trade. They serviced the watch and gave it an overhaul. They did not install a crown tube gasket as the early subs didn't have them. Is this true? He also said they did not replace the crown.

They did not do anything to the case, face, hands or band. I commented that the face looks like it could be a relume. He admitted it could very well be. However, they think that the puffiness or roundness of the markers at 6, 9, and 12 are due to something he called bleed out. To me, this means that the material that was used may have plasticized and flowed. I kinda figured the material once dried, stayed put. He also agreed that the hands may have been replaced in the past. Oh, the date wheel is original. They replaced the crystal with an OE part.

The band is a 93150 with the divers extension and 11 links. It has 580 end pieces. He admitted the band was a bit worn and the crown buckle reflects that.

I asked why the price dropped from $6250 to $4850 over the last few months. He said that all prices are off by about 30% because of the economy.

He agreed to take some detailed pictures and email them to me. So, I'll post them as soon as I can. All in all, the seller seems like a reasonable guy.

This a cash and carry or wire transfer transaction. The idea of sending $5k to someone I've never met scares me.

greekbum · 27 February 2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

Hmm, it looks like none of you ever sleep.

I just had a nice chat with the seller. Here's what he had to say. The watch was brought in as a trade. They serviced the watch and gave it an overhaul. They did not install a crown tube gasket as the early subs didn't have them. Is this true? He also said they did not replace the crown.

They did not do anything to the case, face, hands or band. I commented that the face looks like it could be a relume. He admitted it could very well be. However, they think that the puffiness or roundness of the markers at 6, 9, and 12 are due to something he called bleed out. To me, this means that the material that was used may have plasticized and flowed. I kinda figured the material once dried, stayed put. He also agreed that the hands may have been replaced in the past. Oh, the date wheel is original. They replaced the crystal with an OE part.

The band is a 93150 with the divers extension and 11 links. It has 580 end pieces. He admitted the band was a bit worn and the crown buckle reflects that.

I asked why the price dropped from $6250 to $4850 over the last few months. He said that all prices are off by about 30% because of the economy.

He agreed to take some detailed pictures and email them to me. So, I'll post them as soon as I can. All in all, the seller seems like a reasonable guy.

This a cash and carry or wire transfer transaction. The idea of sending $5k to someone I've never met scares me.

Is the seller the gentleman that wrote a very good book and also specializes in how to spot fake Rolex's?

Someone like this should be able to give a 100% answer to your question on the dial.

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greekbum

Is the seller the gentleman that wrote a very good book and also specializes in how to spot fake Rolex's?

Someone like this should be able to give a 100% answer to your question on the dial.

Indeed he is. I wonder if his book addresses this bleedout?

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 08:50 AM

Ok, here are the pictures.

ossodiseppia · 27 February 2009, 08:51 AM

two more pics

yiannis · 27 February 2009, 08:07 PM

looks like case replacement (too mint condition, no scratches at all from the bracelet between the lugs) dial redone, fake date disc, ...

ossodiseppia · 28 February 2009, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yiannis

looks like case replacement (too mint condition, no scratches at all from the bracelet between the lugs) dial redone, fake date disc, ...

The case has been polished and buffed at least once in the past. You can tell as some of the edges are not real crisp. The date numbers are also a real concern for me too. They don't look like any I've seen on other 1680s.

greekbum · 28 February 2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yiannis

looks like case replacement (too mint condition, no scratches at all from the bracelet between the lugs) dial redone, fake date disc, ...

Yannis.There is Nothing wrong with that case.The seller is a stand up well known guy.The dial was the issue.It was listed as outstanding.You be the judge.

onkyo · 28 February 2009, 12:17 AM

Can someone please post a link to this watch?????

ossodiseppia · 28 February 2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onkyo

Can someone please post a link to this watch?????

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...1655%2C+116710

onkyo · 28 February 2009, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...1655%2C+116710

Thank you.

Looks like VRF...

greekbum · 28 February 2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

Indeed he is. I wonder if his book addresses this bleedout?

I did a simple google search and found this from this seller:
In fact, when it comes to Rolex I wrote the book on it... LITERALLY!

I am considered one of the world’s leading authorities on Rolex and I frequently lecture various watch clubs and organizations on the history of Rolex, as well as the identification of counterfeit and replica Rolex watches and parts.

If he says it's good than I would take his word on it.He has a good reputation has written books etc. I doubt he would try and pull a fast one.Hes not a newbie.Good luck with whatever decision you make on it.

yiannis · 28 February 2009, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greekbum

Yannis.There is Nothing wrong with that case.The seller is a stand up well known guy.The dial was the issue.It was listed as outstanding.You be the judge.

Maybe you are right, it is just my poor opinion, and in general i could stay away from this watch as also from a couple of others same seller has. He 75% nice watches but for the rest 25% you should stay away... check the link carefully and everybody will understand what i mean. Orchi could also help more on this.

yiannis · 28 February 2009, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greekbum

I did a simple google search and found this from this seller:
In fact, when it comes to Rolex I wrote the book on it... LITERALLY!

I am considered one of the world’s leading authorities on Rolex and I frequently lecture various watch clubs and organizations on the history of Rolex, as well as the identification of counterfeit and replica Rolex watches and parts.

If he says it's good than I would take his word on it.He has a good reputation has written books etc. I doubt he would try and pull a fast one.Hes not a newbie.Good luck with whatever decision you make on it.

Dont trust always everything Nikola, you know the greek saying: "Be afraid of the slow running rivers"... The guy has some good knoledge and he is taking advantage of this as people will trust him with eyes wide shut.

yiannis · 28 February 2009, 01:08 AM

This seller has for sale:
1) 1675 there is something i dont like on the dial. Orchi's oinion is better on this one.
2) this 1680 which sticks.
3) read a comment for one of his listings here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...l+and+pictures

If you all check carefully you will find more treasures on his listings...

ossodiseppia · 28 February 2009, 01:09 AM

I have one thing going for me, in general, I don't trust sellers. A seller is always going to present what he or she is selling in a positive fashion. Things that are questionable or negative are usually played down.

I've been told that some of the 1680s came with the bolder or more closed font date dial. However, In all of the searching I've done, I've not been able to find one that has a date dial like this one. I've also not been able to find any vintage Rolex that exhibit this bleed-out described by the seller.

The condition of the case, crystal (he says it's been replaced with a OE crystal) and band I am comfortable with. The face, hands and date dial look suspicious to me. I am approaching this watch much like I would a vintage car that has issues. I start with putting a value on a similar watch as if it needed nothing. Then, I deduct the cost to bring the watch up to that same standard. I don't mind if the face has been refurbished, but I do mind if it's been done poorly. So, that means I am looking at $500+ for face and hands and the labor to do it. As for the date dial, to find one that more closely resembles the ones we think should be on that watch is probably going to cost a fortune. The band is pretty hammered and should be either replaced or refurbished. New bands are about $1k, right? What about the cost of refurbishment, a couple hundred?

All in all, I'm starting to think that in this economy, this is closer to being a $4000 watch than it is a $5000 watch. How did I do?

Orchi · 28 February 2009, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

All in all, I'm starting to think that in this economy, this is closer to being a $4000 watch than it is a $5000 watch. How did I do?

Err buddy Brian...you would be threading on the right track...

greekbum · 3 March 2009, 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=ossodiseppia;1017838]
I've been told that some of the 1680s came with the bolder or more closed font date dial. However, In all of the searching I've done, I've not been able to find one that has a date dial like this one. I've also not been able to find any vintage Rolex that exhibit this bleed-out described by the seller.

I have never seen this either on this style and era dial?
I would like to hear the sellers explanation on this?
I could not find this in his book.
Since he is an expert his explanation could help the forum members determine the difference from bleed out as he calls it and a touched up dial

ossodiseppia · 3 March 2009, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=greekbum;1023963]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

I've been told that some of the 1680s came with the bolder or more closed font date dial. However, In all of the searching I've done, I've not been able to find one that has a date dial like this one. I've also not been able to find any vintage Rolex that exhibit this bleed-out described by the seller.

I have never seen this either on this style and era dial?
I would like to hear the sellers explanation on this?
I could not find this in his book.
Since he is an expert his explanation could help the forum members determine the difference from bleed out as he calls it and a touched up dial

I got no response from the seller when I sent him an email to let him know I was passing on the watch. I chose not to read anything into his lack of response. I'll just take my business elsewhere. No problem for me.

Chozn1 · 4 March 2009, 09:54 AM

On the bottom of his website someone called him out on another dial. I doubt it will stay there long, but it's interesting.

stevemulholland3 · 4 March 2009, 09:22 PM

fyi
there has been a lot of discussion about this watch and several others posted by the seller in the past few days..
I do know the seller personally and he is a good guy,but that being said we all need to be 100% responsible for everything we sell especially in todays economic climate...people are being very cautious with good reason...no-one can afford a 5k hit..or a 2k hit for that matter..
I suggest you call mr brozek yourself and ask him to explain some of the things that have come to light..it could be that one just snuck thru..it does happen,even to the experts..

ossodiseppia · 5 March 2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevemulholland3

fyi
there has been a lot of discussion about this watch and several others posted by the seller in the past few days..
I do know the seller personally and he is a good guy,but that being said we all need to be 100% responsible for everything we sell especially in todays economic climate...people are being very cautious with good reason...no-one can afford a 5k hit..or a 2k hit for that matter..
I suggest you call mr brozek yourself and ask him to explain some of the things that have come to light..it could be that one just snuck thru..it does happen,even to the experts..

I chatted with him at great length about the watch. He's supposed to be an expert on these things. In my opinion, He didn't provide a definitive answer about the face. It's nice watch, but not at $4,800. I've passed on the watch. And, I think I'm going to pass on doing business with him.

I am not dis-ing the guy, but anybody can publish a book that makes them look like an expert. I've seen this in the car world and I am sure that it happens in other places.

springer · 5 March 2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ossodiseppia

I chatted with him at great length about the watch. He's supposed to be an expert on these things. In my opinion, He didn't provide a definitive answer about the face. It's nice watch, but not at $4,800. I've passed on the watch. And, I think I'm going to pass on doing business with him.

I am not dis-ing the guy, but anybody can publish a book that makes them look like an expert. I've seen this in the car world and I am sure that it happens in other places.

We've been saying that for a while here. Writing a book does not make anyone an expert , except maybe in writing a book. Sometimes, fiction and nonfiction appear on the same shelves at the bookstore!!!!!

I've been following this thread since it was listed and thought I'd see how it played out. I've met this fellow Brozeck before and talked with him. Seems to be a personable guy. When I saw this watch listed for sale, read the description, and saw some of the same issues with the watch, one doesn't have to wonder way he was so nonrevealing.

There is no doubt he was looking for a novice buyer that wouldn't notice any issues with the watch. It was sure nice of him to tell you about any issues with the watch, AFTER you called him. If the watch was as it should be, it would have sold some time ago. Sometimes buying the buyer isn't good enough - a little knowledgable advice is only a keyboard away here on the forum. Based on the thread, the watch listing and your conversation, I concur that you made the right decision passing on this watch, and buyer.

27 February 2009, 01:58 AM	#4
greekbum "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Real Name: Nikos Location: Florida Watch: Rolex GMT 16750 Posts: 8,415	The seller if I am not mistaken wrote a book on Rolex so he must be some kind of expert on these watches. He says the dial is outstanding !! He should know right? He wrote a book many collectors including myself bought his book for reference material. It is a very informative book. I think he also says he lectures on how to spot a fake Rolex? I do not know him but sounds like he could help this forum WATCH OUT for fakes. The dial to me does not look right and the hands look to me luminova. He did not state anything on the hands and just said the dial is outsatnding in his ad. If I am wrong please correect me. I am not an expert but look to the many books and forums for answers when in doubt. __________________ Follow Me On Instagram @nickgogas Original Owner ROLEX 16750 GMT Daily Wearer For Over 13,000 Days And Counting

3 March 2009, 01:51 PM	#25
greekbum "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Real Name: Nikos Location: Florida Watch: Rolex GMT 16750 Posts: 8,415	[QUOTE=ossodiseppia;1017838] I've been told that some of the 1680s came with the bolder or more closed font date dial. However, In all of the searching I've done, I've not been able to find one that has a date dial like this one. I've also not been able to find any vintage Rolex that exhibit this bleed-out described by the seller. I have never seen this either on this style and era dial? I would like to hear the sellers explanation on this? I could not find this in his book. Since he is an expert his explanation could help the forum members determine the difference from bleed out as he calls it and a touched up dial __________________ Follow Me On Instagram @nickgogas Original Owner ROLEX 16750 GMT Daily Wearer For Over 13,000 Days And Counting

4 March 2009, 09:54 AM	#27
Chozn1 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South GA Watch: Sub and President Posts: 1,494	On the bottom of his website someone called him out on another dial. I doubt it will stay there long, but it's interesting. __________________ Current Models... (K)Bluesy (M) TT DJ In search of DayDate Prior models... Just about everything.

27 February 2009, 01:41 AM	#2
Orchi Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 2,934	Err buddy Brian...warm welcome to this TRF's WatchOut forum...! The Flip-Lock buckle of the bracelet had been Re-Buffed quite heavily... even to the extent that the Coronet can hardly be seen... The rest of the bracelet combo looks decent considering it might have been on the watch for long time. The Case looks decent also...BUT you really need to show the Dial a little closer to be able to see for more certainly whether or not the Dial is in its original state or it may have been Re-lumed before... The bezel looks OK...but the Hands look to be that it might have been a later replacement(Luminova)...perhaps you need to ask the Seller whether or not the Hands n the Dial would still illuminate in the dark... The Date font "6" looks bolder...which may have been enhanced... For such a Vintage watch...you really need to see the backcase too... inside n out...to see if the Case has any excessive sign of corrosion to the case n caseback cover...n whether the Cal. 1570 movement is clean or not... It's also important to know whether the movement works smoothly... with certain degree of accuracy or not... More pictures please...

27 February 2009, 01:53 AM	#3
ossodiseppia Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Real Name: Brian Location: Colorado Watch: Tudor Sub Posts: 95	Thanks Orchi. These are the only pictures I have. I took them from the seller's add. I will ask for more pictures when I speak with him on the phone today. I too noticed the 6 to be a bit on the large side but didn't think much of it.

27 February 2009, 02:02 AM	#6
Noonan Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: US Watch: 3570.50 Posts: 2,156	Luminova is the type of lume material used. If original, I'd think the hands would have a bit more patina like the hour markers and the pearl.

27 February 2009, 06:52 AM	#7
ibsober "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Odessa, TX Posts: 237	Just curious if anyone has the link to the watch in question...I'd like to take a look at it and the seller.

27 February 2009, 07:00 AM	#8
ossodiseppia Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Real Name: Brian Location: Colorado Watch: Tudor Sub Posts: 95	Hmm, it looks like none of you ever sleep. I just had a nice chat with the seller. Here's what he had to say. The watch was brought in as a trade. They serviced the watch and gave it an overhaul. They did not install a crown tube gasket as the early subs didn't have them. Is this true? He also said they did not replace the crown. They did not do anything to the case, face, hands or band. I commented that the face looks like it could be a relume. He admitted it could very well be. However, they think that the puffiness or roundness of the markers at 6, 9, and 12 are due to something he called bleed out. To me, this means that the material that was used may have plasticized and flowed. I kinda figured the material once dried, stayed put. He also agreed that the hands may have been replaced in the past. Oh, the date wheel is original. They replaced the crystal with an OE part. The band is a 93150 with the divers extension and 11 links. It has 580 end pieces. He admitted the band was a bit worn and the crown buckle reflects that. I asked why the price dropped from $6250 to $4850 over the last few months. He said that all prices are off by about 30% because of the economy. He agreed to take some detailed pictures and email them to me. So, I'll post them as soon as I can. All in all, the seller seems like a reasonable guy. This a cash and carry or wire transfer transaction. The idea of sending $5k to someone I've never met scares me.

27 February 2009, 08:07 PM	#13
yiannis Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Real Name: Yiannis Location: Greece Watch: of course Rolex! Posts: 134	looks like case replacement (too mint condition, no scratches at all from the bracelet between the lugs) dial redone, fake date disc, ...

28 February 2009, 12:17 AM	#16
onkyo Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Real Name: Pav Location: Manhattan Posts: 11,495	Can someone please post a link to this watch?????

28 February 2009, 01:08 AM	#22
yiannis Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Real Name: Yiannis Location: Greece Watch: of course Rolex! Posts: 134	This seller has for sale: 1) 1675 there is something i dont like on the dial. Orchi's oinion is better on this one. 2) this 1680 which sticks. 3) read a comment for one of his listings here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...l+and+pictures If you all check carefully you will find more treasures on his listings...

28 February 2009, 01:09 AM	#23
ossodiseppia Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Real Name: Brian Location: Colorado Watch: Tudor Sub Posts: 95	I have one thing going for me, in general, I don't trust sellers. A seller is always going to present what he or she is selling in a positive fashion. Things that are questionable or negative are usually played down. I've been told that some of the 1680s came with the bolder or more closed font date dial. However, In all of the searching I've done, I've not been able to find one that has a date dial like this one. I've also not been able to find any vintage Rolex that exhibit this bleed-out described by the seller. The condition of the case, crystal (he says it's been replaced with a OE crystal) and band I am comfortable with. The face, hands and date dial look suspicious to me. I am approaching this watch much like I would a vintage car that has issues. I start with putting a value on a similar watch as if it needed nothing. Then, I deduct the cost to bring the watch up to that same standard. I don't mind if the face has been refurbished, but I do mind if it's been done poorly. So, that means I am looking at $500+ for face and hands and the labor to do it. As for the date dial, to find one that more closely resembles the ones we think should be on that watch is probably going to cost a fortune. The band is pretty hammered and should be either replaced or refurbished. New bands are about $1k, right? What about the cost of refurbishment, a couple hundred? All in all, I'm starting to think that in this economy, this is closer to being a $4000 watch than it is a $5000 watch. How did I do?

4 March 2009, 09:22 PM	#28
stevemulholland3 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Real Name: steven Location: tampa bay Watch: 1680 18k sub Posts: 6,673	fyi there has been a lot of discussion about this watch and several others posted by the seller in the past few days.. I do know the seller personally and he is a good guy,but that being said we all need to be 100% responsible for everything we sell especially in todays economic climate...people are being very cautious with good reason...no-one can afford a 5k hit..or a 2k hit for that matter.. I suggest you call mr brozek yourself and ask him to explain some of the things that have come to light..it could be that one just snuck thru..it does happen,even to the experts..

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)