Need help authenticate this Tiffany Sub

[tkc324]

Thank you in advance for reading my post and share your expertise. I am in a position to acquire this Tiffany sub and need some help authenticate the legitimacy of the dial. I know there are some controversies around these Tiffany dials and the seller do not have original paper work. I really like the watch as is regardless but want to see what the experts think. If there are any red flags on the watch, please let me know. thank you

[greekbum]

Whatever premium you are paying for that Tiffany stamp on the dial is a perceived value as there is nobody that can guarantee that its a watch that was sold by tiffany. There were dozens of places that would put that tiffany stamp on a dial to get a little more for a watch in the 80's and 90's.

[1675-David]

Lovely looking watch, Nikos pretty much summed it up though.

[javier]

red flag is 168000. It shoud be 16800 (5 digits) IMO

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by javier

red flag is 168000. It shoud be 16800 (5 digits) IMO

168000 indeed exist, it's a transitional reference. Anyways, to me a Tiffany dial without paperwork is by definition a modified dial, a Tiffany dial on a transitional reference is a run-run-run.

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Whatever premium you are paying for that Tiffany stamp on the dial is a perceived value as there is nobody that can guarantee that its a watch that was sold by tiffany. There were dozens of places that would put that tiffany stamp on a dial to get a little more for a watch in the 80's and 90's.

Nikos, thank you for your input and great to hear from you. Do you know if Tiffany ever sold transitional Sub? Not sure if the time line would line up correctly with this one. I have been following similar Tiffany dial Rolex, not just subs but any Tiffany Rolex, and I can honestly say I have never seen one that came with Tiffany paper work...

[tkc324]

Originally Posted by fmc000

168000 indeed exist, it's a transitional reference. Anyways, to me a Tiffany dial without paperwork is by definition a modified dial, a Tiffany dial on a transitional reference is a run-run-run.

Appreciate the feedback

[javier]

Originally Posted by fmc000

168000 indeed exist, it's a transitional reference. Anyways, to me a Tiffany dial without paperwork is by definition a modified dial, a Tiffany dial on a transitional reference is a run-run-run.

I didnt know that a 6 digits reference cames with holes in the case. Tks

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by javier

I didnt know that a 6 digits reference cames with holes in the case. Tks

As far as I know all 168000’s have lug holes.

[offrdmania]

Without the Tiffany paperwork to prove the provenance, it is just another modified dial and additional value is only what someone is willing to pay for it. I personally would never pay a premium for a Tiffany dial without a Tiffany receipt.
Its hard to prove that it is a real 168000 without original papers as well because the only difference is a 16800 was made of 316 stainless and the 168000 was the transition into 904 steel.
Many 16800s had extra 0s added on the case in order to increase their value.

Without any papers for the Tiffany dial or for the watch then I wouldnt pay anymore than a regular 16800 of the same year and condition.

[rmagoo57]

Found some info on the sub...

This specific Rolex Submariner Ref.168000 is both very rare and transitional that combines the best elements of both the vintage and modern Rolex Submariner into one complete package. The Rolex Submariner Ref 168000 was only produced in for about 7-9 months between 1987-1988 making it a very rare reference.

https://www.craftandtailored.com/pro...sitional-model

[TimeLord2]

I think you will find this thread quite interesting, it's titled "Rolex Tiffany Archive Papers"
https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=778533

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by rmagoo57

Found some info on the sub...

This specific Rolex Submariner Ref.168000 is both very rare and transitional that combines the best elements of both the vintage and modern Rolex Submariner into one complete package. The Rolex Submariner Ref 168000 was only produced in for about 7-9 months between 1987-1988 making it a very rare reference.

https://www.craftandtailored.com/pro...sitional-model

I'm skeptical of this - your link is from a dealer and they of course are peddling their wares so its got marketing 101 all over it. Frankly I don't value the 16800 / 168000. To me they are just modern WG submariners. I wouldn't let the "transitional" concept win me over. Now if its a transitional matte dial - I think different case. Anyway, all IMHO.

On the other topic, I agree with the others on the Tiffany without papers approach. Minimal premium unless confirmed provenance.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by rmagoo57

Found some info on the sub...

This specific Rolex Submariner Ref.168000 is both very rare and transitional that combines the best elements of both the vintage and modern Rolex Submariner into one complete package. The Rolex Submariner Ref 168000 was only produced in for about 7-9 months between 1987-1988 making it a very rare reference.

https://www.craftandtailored.com/pro...sitional-model

Calling the 168000 "very rare" (three times) is just sales BS from C&T. They're not hard to find at all. There's loads on Chrono24.

I, too, would avoid any Tiffany Rolex with no papers.

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by tkc324

Nikos, thank you for your input and great to hear from you. Do you know if Tiffany ever sold transitional Sub? Not sure if the time line would line up correctly with this one. I have been following similar Tiffany dial Rolex, not just subs but any Tiffany Rolex, and I can honestly say I have never seen one that came with Tiffany paper work...

Yes Tiffany was still retailing Rolex watches when this model was made. I have owned and bought at least a dozen with box and papers in the last 25 years. Most people that buy something from tiffany keep that stuff but there are reasons why it gets lost etc. There was a store local to me that every watch they sold in the late 80s early 90s was stamped tiffany so they could sell it for more. At the end of the day you the buyer has to be convinced that its an authentic tiffany.

[harry in montreal]

Are you seriously calling a Rolex 168000 rare? Rare should only be used when ordering a steak.

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by harry in montreal

Are you seriously calling a Rolex 168000 rare? Rare should only be used when ordering a steak.

Or an albino Daytona

[1William]

No papers, no sale.

[GoingPlaces]

Without T papers this is just another watch. I would not pay a penny premium without papers validating it was on fact sold by Tiffanys. As for 16800/168000, I defer to experts.

[Yzord]

Excuse me, but why all the fuzz about Tiffany? I'm lost in this.

[Nick9]

I have a 168000. I’ve called it “less common”, but never “rare”.

Is that fair? (Hope so...)

A previous owner had it fully renovated by Rolex. I like it anyway.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by Yzord

Excuse me, but why all the fuzz about Tiffany? I'm lost in this.

Tiffany's stamped Rolex adds value. Provided there is paperwork to validate. Not a big deal to some, but market value increases regardless. Finding one with paperwork is not easy.

[harry in montreal]

Less common !

Like the Leafs winning the cup !

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by 1William

No papers, no sale.

Exactly...easy

[baumare]

For personal experience I agree, no paper no party.
As for the 16800O you can see that the last 0 was added later, which is a good sign, to be sure you should look inside the case back and see if there is the typical stamp

[Nick9]

Originally Posted by baumare

As for the 16800O you can see that the last 0 was added later, which is a good sign, to be sure you should look inside the case back and see if there is the typical stamp

My understanding is that having the extra zero look like it was added later is NOT good. An attempt to make a 16800 into a less common (!) 168000.

I have also read that 168000s often have casebacks stamped 16800, and that this doesn’t matter.

I’d be glad to have the experts weigh in in both those things.

[baumare]

Originally Posted by Nick9

My understanding is that having the extra zero look like it was added later is NOT good. An attempt to make a 16800 into a less common (!) 168000.

I have also read that 168000s often have casebacks stamped 16800, and that this doesn’t matter.

I’d be glad to have the experts weigh in in both those things.

I'm not talking about the stamp 16800 inside the case back, but of the stamp (ROLEXSA) like you can see in this photo, if your not sure about the 000 this is the only way to make sure is a 168000

fullsizeoutput_10af.jpeg


My understanding is that in the first batch of 168000 the extra zero was added by Rolex, up to mid 9 million serial, and where typically not aligned, from serial R they started to be in line and with the same font.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by baumare

I'm not talking about the stamp 16800 inside the case back, but of the stamp (ROLEXSA) like you can see in this photo, if your not sure about the 000 this is the only way to make sure is a 168000

Attachment 1219756


My understanding is that in the first batch of 168000 the extra zero was added by Rolex, up to mid 9 million serial, and where typically not aligned, from serial R they started to be in line and with the same font.

For everyone's benefit and to be 100% clear - with or without the stamp is the 168000?

[Old Expat Beast]

I don't think many 16800s had an extra zero added by people trying to pull a fast one. I don't remember the 168000 ever being more expensive on the used market than the 16800 when I was doing a lot of vintage shopping in Hong Kong a few years back. If anything the 168000 was slightly cheaper, and never realised any potential for markup due to being less common. Maybe things are different now, I haven't checked lately.

[2000-NJDEVILS]

To the OP,
I’m not 100% sure, but I believe Rolex took the AD status from Tiffany’s and Fortunoff’s around 1989-1991... That said, Tiffany’s wasn’t Tourneau and didn’t sell tens of thousands of Rolex watches every year - I can’t say one way or another if the dial and or case is bogus, but I can tell you that no box and no papers equals DON’T BUY. DON’T BUY. DON’T BUY.