Is Ming starting to oversaturate the market?

[buddenfan]

They just dropped a 37.04 this morning in rose gold but Im sorry for that price any smart collector would get a DayDate or 20 other watches at that price point


https://www.ming.watch/products/ming...ZVC_d8JRHXByg0

Feels like they now come out with something every other month while customers wait half a year for previous orders

[enjoythemusic]

The market is shifting a bit imho. Plus there's a lot of competition too at every pricepoint.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by buddenfan

They just dropped a 37.04 this morning in rose gold but Im sorry for that price any smart collector would get a DayDate or 20 other watches at that price point

Can't speak to market oversaturation, but the price seems truly aspirational. However, I trust they know their market better than I do.

You're right that there's a ton of competition at that level. I doubt Ming fans and collectors at this level would instead opt for the cliche DayDate, but I too could find many preferred pieces (say a Lange 1 MP). But that's usually the case with higher priced fringe pieces -- there are always alternatives that a supermajority of collectors would prefer.

[trackingtime]

it's "independent" that's why.
limited numbers, 20pieces

[INC]

For a price of two WG Daytona? They are kidding.

[CNY]

Might not be for most of us, but they will find 20 buyers at that price.

[DJH1977]

Finishing is much too crude for that price, disregarding stylistic choices.

[WatchEater666]

I feel an independent needs to offer exceptional value at the price point to justify the risk associated with them.

For me, this isn't really exceptional on the movement end, design or anything else.

Let alone at that price.

Easy pass.

[buddenfan]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Can't speak to market oversaturation, but the price seems truly aspirational. However, I trust they know their market better than I do.

You're right that there's a ton of competition at that level. I doubt Ming fans and collectors at this level would instead opt for the cliche DayDate, but I too could find many preferred pieces (say a Lange 1 MP). But that's usually the case with higher priced fringe pieces -- there are always alternatives that a supermajority of collectors would prefer.

While the DayDate is perhaps cliche its still legendary and one of the best watches ever made. And holds value. Id take a DayDate over a Ming anyday at that price range

[dchang81]

Not sure if it's a coincidence to raise a million per release

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I feel an independent needs to offer exceptional value at the price point to justify the risk associated with them.

For me, this isn't really exceptional on the movement end, design or anything else.

Let alone at that price.

Easy pass.

Well put.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I feel an independent needs to offer exceptional value at the price point to justify the risk associated with them.

For me, this isn't really exceptional on the movement end, design or anything else.

Let alone at that price.

Easy pass.

For me this is the 100% opposite of an independent.
They are DEPENDING 100% on third party suppliers.

Imo ( but really IMO) cause most call everything independent that does not belong to LVMH, Kering, Swatch, Richemont, ...) and independent should be able to make a watch on his own without somebody delivering him a case, hands, dial, ETA or whatever movement from the shelf.

I coud do the same. Contact a designer, a case maker, a movement maker, dial and hands and finally look for someone who puts everything together. Maybe I would like the result but I would not have the arrogance nor the guts to call myself an independent watchmaker.

If you make yourself the case ( already VERY rare ) if you make your own dial, hands, crown ... If You rework an existing movement or you really start from scratch ( except hairspring, jewels, ... ) THAT makes you an independent

People scream all the time the Nautulis, Daytona, Royal oak and so are overhyped and we should look more at independents. I agree but only to a degree cause nowadays we're imo in an independent bubble. Or at least when we're talking about those guys.

Also, but that's another discussion .... The top independents are unfortunately also a way overpriced and overhyped story today. Most will agree the top 3 are Rexhep, Dufour and Smith.
Look, as much as I like these ... They are insane overhyped today.
I'm already long in this watch collecting thing and believe me, I've met all 3 of them more than once ... and more important Dufour and Smith about 20 years ago and Rexhep 12 years ago.
Back then a Dufour was about 40-50 K, Smith also around 45K. If only I had the money ... A smith was easy to get.
When Rexhep started Akrivia I spoke him more than once during the first 2 years. Believe me these were VERY hard times for him... nobody bought them. And I mean nobody.

Yes, these 3 are also in my top 3 dream list ... But seeing Dufour and Smith selling for around 1 million ... that's just nuts

[learningtofly]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me this is the 100% opposite of an independent.
They are DEPENDING 100% on third party suppliers.

Imo ( but really IMO) cause most call everything independent that does not belong to LVMH, Kering, Swatch, Richemont, ...) and independent should be able to make a watch on his own without somebody delivering him a case, hands, dial, ETA or whatever movement from the shelf.

I coud do the same. Contact a designer, a case maker, a movement maker, dial and hands and finally look for someone who puts everything together. Maybe I would like the result but I would not have the arrogance nor the guts to call myself an independent watchmaker.

If you make yourself the case ( already VERY rare ) if you make your own dial, hands, crown ... If You reword a existing movement or you really start from scratch ( except hairspring, jewels, ... ) THAT makes you an independent

People scream all the time the Nautulis, Daytona, Royal oak and so are overhyped and we should look more at independents. I agree but only to a degree cause nowadays we're imo in an independent bubble. Or at least when we're talking about those guys.

Also, but that's another discussion .... The top independents are unfortunately also a way overpriced and overhyped story today. Most will agree the top 3 are Rexhep, Dufour and Smith.
Look, as much as I like these ... They are insane overhyped today.
I'm already long in this watch collecting thing and believe me, I've met all 3 of them more than once ... and more important Dufour and Smith about 20 years ago and Rexhep 12 years ago.
Back then a Dufour was about 40-50 K, Smith also around 45K. If only I had the money ... A smith was easy to get.
When Rexhep started Akrivia I spoke him more than once during the first 2 years. Believe me these were VERY hard times for him... nobody bought them. And I mean nobody.

Yes, these 3 are also in my top 3 dream list ... But seeing Dufour and Smith selling for around 1 million ... that's just nuts

That’s a very narrow view of independents, IMO, and not one shared by most. Would be nice to have one of each, though

[CNY]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I feel an independent needs to offer exceptional value at the price point to justify the risk associated with them.

I think someone here brought this up, but I’m noticing many parallels with the US Tech Startup scene - incredible ideas, enticing PoCs, massive investment (i.e., people putting hundreds of thousands of usd with of preorders), and long time to payoff (watch delivered).

It’ll be interesting to see what happens if the rate of advanced orders slows, and watchmakers have to run with their initial investment - hopefully it’s enough to make the pieces ordered.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I feel an independent needs to offer exceptional value at the price point to justify the risk associated with them.

For me, this isn't really exceptional on the movement end, design or anything else.

Let alone at that price.

Easy pass.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by buddenfan

While the DayDate is perhaps cliche its still legendary and one of the best watches ever made. And holds value. Id take a DayDate over a Ming anyday at that price range

Understood regarding your preferences, but these are just your personal preferences (to which you're entitled, of course).

I think collectors who are into Ming and other independents would virtually never opt for a DayDate over a Ming, and instead would choose something more interesting.

I'll keep my own personal opinions about the DayDate itself private as they'll be perceived (rightly so!) as inflammatory, and that's not at all my intent here.

[Be_Water]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me this is the 100% opposite of an independent.
They are DEPENDING 100% on third party suppliers.

Imo ( but really IMO) cause most call everything independent that does not belong to LVMH, Kering, Swatch, Richemont, ...) and independent should be able to make a watch on his own without somebody delivering him a case, hands, dial, ETA or whatever movement from the shelf.

I coud do the same. Contact a designer, a case maker, a movement maker, dial and hands and finally look for someone who puts everything together. Maybe I would like the result but I would not have the arrogance nor the guts to call myself an independent watchmaker.

If you make yourself the case ( already VERY rare ) if you make your own dial, hands, crown ... If You rework an existing movement or you really start from scratch ( except hairspring, jewels, ... ) THAT makes you an independent

People scream all the time the Nautulis, Daytona, Royal oak and so are overhyped and we should look more at independents. I agree but only to a degree cause nowadays we're imo in an independent bubble. Or at least when we're talking about those guys.

Also, but that's another discussion .... The top independents are unfortunately also a way overpriced and overhyped story today. Most will agree the top 3 are Rexhep, Dufour and Smith.
Look, as much as I like these ... They are insane overhyped today.
I'm already long in this watch collecting thing and believe me, I've met all 3 of them more than once ... and more important Dufour and Smith about 20 years ago and Rexhep 12 years ago.
Back then a Dufour was about 40-50 K, Smith also around 45K. If only I had the money ... A smith was easy to get.
When Rexhep started Akrivia I spoke him more than once during the first 2 years. Believe me these were VERY hard times for him... nobody bought them. And I mean nobody.

Yes, these 3 are also in my top 3 dream list ... But seeing Dufour and Smith selling for around 1 million ... that's just nuts

Great points!

[trackingtime]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me this is the 100% opposite of an independent.
They are DEPENDING 100% on third party suppliers.

Imo ( but really IMO) cause most call everything independent that does not belong to LVMH, Kering, Swatch, Richemont, ...) and independent should be able to make a watch on his own without somebody delivering him a case, hands, dial, ETA or whatever movement from the shelf.

I coud do the same. Contact a designer, a case maker, a movement maker, dial and hands and finally look for someone who puts everything together. Maybe I would like the result but I would not have the arrogance nor the guts to call myself an independent watchmaker.

If you make yourself the case ( already VERY rare ) if you make your own dial, hands, crown ... If You rework an existing movement or you really start from scratch ( except hairspring, jewels, ... ) THAT makes you an independent

People scream all the time the Nautulis, Daytona, Royal oak and so are overhyped and we should look more at independents. I agree but only to a degree cause nowadays we're imo in an independent bubble. Or at least when we're talking about those guys.

Also, but that's another discussion .... The top independents are unfortunately also a way overpriced and overhyped story today. Most will agree the top 3 are Rexhep, Dufour and Smith.
Look, as much as I like these ... They are insane overhyped today.
I'm already long in this watch collecting thing and believe me, I've met all 3 of them more than once ... and more important Dufour and Smith about 20 years ago and Rexhep 12 years ago.
Back then a Dufour was about 40-50 K, Smith also around 45K. If only I had the money ... A smith was easy to get.
When Rexhep started Akrivia I spoke him more than once during the first 2 years. Believe me these were VERY hard times for him... nobody bought them. And I mean nobody.

Yes, these 3 are also in my top 3 dream list ... But seeing Dufour and Smith selling for around 1 million ... that's just nuts

so they're considered a microbrand instead of independent watchmaker.

100% agree

[londonpilgrim]

20 pieces is not over-saturating

[INC]

Originally Posted by londonpilgrim

20 pieces is not over-saturating

But yes, if they don't find 20 buyers.

[smalleq]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Understood regarding your preferences, but these are just your personal preferences (to which you're entitled, of course).

I think collectors who are into Ming and other independents would virtually never opt for a DayDate over a Ming, and instead would choose something more interesting.

I'll keep my own personal opinions about the DayDate itself private as they'll be perceived (rightly so!) as inflammatory, and that's not at all my intent here.

I'd look at it a bit differently, I think collectors who might be into something like this Ming, perhaps already already have owned a DayDate and are now looking for something different.

I doubt this Ming would be somebody's first >$30k, but it might be their fifth.

[break]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me this is the 100% opposite of an independent.
They are DEPENDING 100% on third party suppliers.

Imo ( but really IMO) cause most call everything independent that does not belong to LVMH, Kering, Swatch, Richemont, ...) and independent should be able to make a watch on his own without somebody delivering him a case, hands, dial, ETA or whatever movement from the shelf.

I coud do the same. Contact a designer, a case maker, a movement maker, dial and hands and finally look for someone who puts everything together. Maybe I would like the result but I would not have the arrogance nor the guts to call myself an independent watchmaker.

If you make yourself the case ( already VERY rare ) if you make your own dial, hands, crown ... If You rework an existing movement or you really start from scratch ( except hairspring, jewels, ... ) THAT makes you an independent

People scream all the time the Nautulis, Daytona, Royal oak and so are overhyped and we should look more at independents. I agree but only to a degree cause nowadays we're imo in an independent bubble. Or at least when we're talking about those guys.

Also, but that's another discussion .... The top independents are unfortunately also a way overpriced and overhyped story today. Most will agree the top 3 are Rexhep, Dufour and Smith.
Look, as much as I like these ... They are insane overhyped today.
I'm already long in this watch collecting thing and believe me, I've met all 3 of them more than once ... and more important Dufour and Smith about 20 years ago and Rexhep 12 years ago.
Back then a Dufour was about 40-50 K, Smith also around 45K. If only I had the money ... A smith was easy to get.
When Rexhep started Akrivia I spoke him more than once during the first 2 years. Believe me these were VERY hard times for him... nobody bought them. And I mean nobody.

Yes, these 3 are also in my top 3 dream list ... But seeing Dufour and Smith selling for around 1 million ... that's just nuts

I think you've offered a concrete, narrow definition of independent watchmaking.

My understanding is that Ming does not perform any finishing in-house - their work ends at design and resumes at customer support. In their case, I'd agree with your assessment of their positioning.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by smalleq

I'd look at it a bit differently, I think collectors who might be into something like this Ming, perhaps already already have owned a DayDate and are now looking for something different.

I doubt this Ming would be somebody's first >$30k, but it might be their fifth.

We're talking (at least I am, and the OP) about a hypothetical choice between 2 watches, the Ming or a DayDate. I'm not sure how my statements above conflict with yours. The fact that a DayDate may have been owned in the past doesn't change my point. I didn't say or imply that anyone into a Ming or Independents would never be into a DayDate. My point is that I seriously doubt collectors are cross-shopping the Ming and a DayDate.

[smalleq]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

We're talking (at least I am, and the OP) about a hypothetical choice between 2 watches, the Ming or a DayDate. I'm not sure how my statements above conflict with yours. The fact that a DayDate may have been owned in the past doesn't change my point. I didn't say or imply that anyone into a Ming or Independents would never be into a DayDate. My point is that I seriously doubt collectors are cross-shopping the Ming and a DayDate.

You're right, I am in agreeance with you...meant to quote the OP.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by smalleq

You're right, I am in agreeance with you...meant to quote the OP.

[thesingularity7]

I'm a long time fan/owner of MING watches, and this one did feel a bit disproportionately priced compared to the titanium version released last year (for 18500 CHF less). But in this industry, I've seen brands ask for ridiculous premiums for precious metal watches so I can't say they're alone in this. Personally, aside from the design language, I found MING watches to often deliver products that felt like they could cost more than their MSRP. I should probably wait till I see one in person (if I ever do), but this doesn't say "deal" to me as much as the Ming 20.01 (with the Agenhor Agengraphe) does.

[Fleetlord]

Lol

[londonpilgrim]

Originally Posted by INC

But yes, if they don't find 20 buyers.

I am pretty sure they will.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by trackingtime

so they're considered a microbrand instead of independent watchmaker.

100% agree

Agree +1, Ming is a microbrand.

[samson66]

I don't "get" Ming but I'm sure it's not directed at me. Like others say, all they have to do is find 20 buyers.